In defence of Bikers

chasm

opti0nal wrote: »

Should motorcyclists be allowed to decide what laws they will follow? Car drivers could equally claim to be entitled to use bus lanes, but generally they don't. What is it about motorcyclists that makes think they're above the law?

The 'maximise safety' excuse is just that: an excuse. If motorcyclists stayed in the private vehicle lanes as required by law, and did not try to overtake, they would not be at any significant risk.

Car drivers and other motorists think they are above the law when it comes to things like yakking on the phone whilst driving. I see it so often every day that i had to check to see if it had suddenly been made legal without my knowledge. According to the rsa using a mobile phone whilst driving makes you 4 times more likely to crash, i doubt the same can be said for a motorcyclist riding in a bus lane.

opti0nal

Ok so,

Motorcyclists break road traffic laws beacause 'every one else does it' and because it's a 'safer'.

A perfect storm of cognitive distortions.

If it's any comfort, I've seen the same patterns of self-deception in 'motors' when permitting themselves to break speed limits and amber lights.

It's no wonder that road safety campaigns don't work.

Peanut2011

opti0nal wrote: »

Car drivers could equally claim to be entitled to use bus lanes, but generally they don't.

Isn't that your choice? You don't see any motorcyclist here stating that car drivers should not use bus lanes.

You are more than welcome. I as any other motorcyclist take on any repercussion that may come out of using the bus lane.

You can do the same!

Ouchette

opti0nal wrote: »

Ok so,

Motorcyclists break road traffic laws beacause 'every one else does it' and because it's a 'safer'.

A perfect storm of cognitive distortions.

If it's any comfort, I've seen the same patterns of self-deception in 'motors' when permitting themselves to break speed limits and amber lights.

It's no wonder that road safety campaigns don't work.

Actually, I don't think it's true that safety campaigns don't work. Attitudes to drink driving have been transformed by them and I thought the Think Bike campaign was excellent.

I'm not buying it that staying stuck between large vehicles that may not have seen you is safer than moving carefully into the advanced stop box. Neither the police nor the bike schools agree with you. As with bus lanes back in Ireland, sometimes it's the law that needs to change because it doesn't always keep up with the changing infrastructure.

CrazyRabbit

After 13 years of research (i.e, me driving a motorbike), I can state with 100% certainty that the risk of accident is significantly reduced when driving in the bus lane.

It's like this:

1. Staying in place behind other vehicles: Legal + mostly safe. Small risk from vehicles that suddenly brake/slow down, and from tailgaters.
2. Filtering stationary traffic : Legal, but risk from doors opening & illegal unannounced u-turns or vehicles changing lanes.
3. Overtaking: Legal in most places, but risk of unannounced lane/lane position changes by other road users who don't use mirrors/lifesaver glances.
3. Using Bus Lanes : Illegal, but very safe. No risk from tailgaters or vehicles that suddenly brake & provides better visibility of the road surface ahead (potholes etc).

Due to the inherent vulnerability of motorcyclists, the logical 'safest' choice is to use the bus lane.

TTDublin

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

After 13 years of research (i.e, me driving a motorbike), I can state with 100% certainty that the risk of accident is significantly reduced when driving in the bus lane.

It's like this:

1. Staying in place behind other vehicles: Legal + mostly safe. Small risk from vehicles that suddenly brake/slow down, and from tailgaters.
2. Filtering stationary traffic : Legal, but risk from doors opening & illegal unannounced u-turns or vehicles changing lanes.
3. Overtaking: Legal in most places, but risk of unannounced lane/lane position changes by other road users who don't use mirrors/lifesaver glances.
3. Using Bus Lanes : Illegal, but very safe. No risk from tailgaters or vehicles that suddenly brake & provides better visibility of the road surface ahead (potholes etc).

Due to the inherent vulnerability of motorcyclists, the logical 'safest' choice is to use the bus lane.

+1

I'll also add that in general the police do not prosecute motorcyclist for using the bus lane so long as they're not acting the maggot.
I've a mate in the Gardai and he said they've been told to leave us alone as it reduces the number of accidents from motorcycle filtering.

daenerysstormborn3

Ouchette wrote: »

Actually, I don't think it's true that safety campaigns don't work. Attitudes to drink driving have been transformed by them and I thought the Think Bike campaign was excellent.

I'm not buying it that staying stuck between large vehicles that may not have seen you is safer than moving carefully into the advanced stop box. Neither the police nor the bike schools agree with you. As with bus lanes back in Ireland, sometimes it's the law that needs to change because it doesn't always keep up with the changing infrastructure.

The Think Bike campaigns are always really good but unfortunately, they're a UK based campaign. The RSA could do with putting money behind such an effective campaign.

TTDublin wrote: »

+1

I'll also add that in general the police do not prosecute motorcyclist for using the bus lane so long as they're not acting the maggot.
I've a mate in the Gardai and he said they've been told to leave us alone as it reduces the number of accidents from motorcycle filtering.

This is true. If you wheelie the bike up the bus lane, then yes, you're asking for a telling off but if you are using the bus lane in the interests of safety then the gardai leave you alone. I don't know anybody that has even received a warning for using bus lanes.

Also, car drivers do also use bus lanes when it suits them, as do lorry drivers, jeep drivers etc. etc., this behaviour isn't isolated to one group of road users, however, it is most beneficial to all groups of road users when bikers do use bus lanes. It is safer. It has been proven safer. If you have such an issue with bikers using bus lanes despite the evidence proving it is safer, then why don't you start taking down registration numbers and report them to the gardai. Shouting about it on the internet is not going to achieve anything, nor is giving out to bikers who choose to use the bus lane in the interests of their own safety.

FatherLen

pixiebean22 wrote: »

I don't know anybody that has even received a warning for using bus lanes.

i just couldn't imagine a garda stopping a motorcyclist for driving in the bus lane. i have been overtaken by motorcycle gardaí whilst driving in the bus lane and all i have ever gotten is a wave or a nod.

dj jarvis

opti0nal wrote: »

Should motorcyclists be allowed to decide what laws they will follow? Car drivers could equally claim to be entitled to use bus lanes, but generally they don't. What is it about motorcyclists that makes think they're above the law?

The 'maximise safety' excuse is just that: an excuse. If motorcyclists stayed in the private vehicle lanes as required by law, and did not try to overtake, they would not be at any significant risk.

and if your were correct the VAST MAJORITY of garda would enforce it , but they dont , reason ? becasue its safer for all concerned

car drivers pick and choose the laws the want to break a 100 times a journey ,
dont you forget that

its no excuse that bikers want to stay as far away from car drivers as possible for a good reason - they kill bikers due to willful negligence ,
the end of this debate it this - when the statistic for the amount of bikers killed due to the negligence of others comes down to the same as bikers negligence , then you can debate filtering and bus lanes

you can debate this all you want - the figures don't lie
car drivers are the reason so many bikers die - so **** off and learn how to drive before you come moaning at us

steve9859

Ouchette wrote: »

For example, I was sitting in traffic at soon after getting my licence because I didn't yet have the confidence to filter. 3 lanes of traffic, all going in the same direction, waiting at the lights. A lorry pulls up in the lane next to me and slightly behind me. After sitting there a bit, he decides that I am in fact an empty space and tries to edge in on top of me. Luckily, he didn't quite manage to pull over far enough to hit me but it was only centimetres away. Lesson learnt. These days, I filter to the front where I know I can be seen. If necessary I'll sit in the cyclist box ahead of the traffic (I'm in London now) with all the other bikers. I can be seen. I am where drivers expect me to be. It's not allowed but it is much, much safer.

Yeh, thats real great for the cyclists who cant get in the box as its full of bikers, or more often that a biker has blocked the cycle lane from which you can get in to the box. I have had to sit beside trucks and buses many times as ignorant bikers block the cycle lanes and don't let you get clear into the box

CrazyRabbit

steve9859 wrote: »

Yeh, thats real great for the cyclists who cant get in the box as its full of bikers, or more often that a biker has blocked the cycle lane from which you can get in to the box. I have had to sit beside trucks and buses many times as ignorant bikers block the cycle lanes and don't let you get clear into the box

Any biker who blocks a cycle lane is an asshole. And most bikers (and other drivers) would agree with that.

I can see what you mean about the box as well. Bikers should not enter it if it's going to prevent those who are legally entitled to use it from doing so.

I'm all for bikers using bus lanes though, as it causes absolutely no inconvenience to any other road user. In fact, for drivers in the 'normal' lane, it's one less vehicle between them and the lights/their destination.

Ouchette

steve9859 wrote: »

Yeh, thats real great for the cyclists who cant get in the box as its full of bikers, or more often that a biker has blocked the cycle lane from which you can get in to the box. I have had to sit beside trucks and buses many times as ignorant bikers block the cycle lanes and don't let you get clear into the box

I don't use cycle boxes whenever I feel like it. I use them when the alternative is a decent chance of getting squashed and I'm always careful not to block cyclists. I get that some cyclists would probably prefer to have them all to themselves (although having motorbikes and scooters there too probably does help keep the buses and lorries out), but frankly I think that's a bit selfish in those circumstances. Sitting beside trucks and buses is just as dangerous for a biker as a cyclist.

I don't use cycle lanes and never mentioned them.

Anyway, the tacit agreement of bikers who do end using the cycle box using the right side and cyclists using the left seems like a decent compromise for everyone.

TTDublin

steve9859 wrote: »

Yeh, thats real great for the cyclists who cant get in the box as its full of bikers, or more often that a biker has blocked the cycle lane from which you can get in to the box. I have had to sit beside trucks and buses many times as ignorant bikers block the cycle lanes and don't let you get clear into the box

I always find it very amusing when I hear cyclists banging on about their rights and yet by enlarge they refuse to use the 'mandatory cycle lanes' break red lights and use the footpaths when it suits them. Their excuse is usually that the cycle lanes are poorly maintained.

Often they are miss informed believing that cycle lanes are for their private use which is wrong...
Non mandatory cycle lanes maybe used by all transport. Non mandatory cycle lanes incidentally are usually found at junctions leading onto the cycle box which the ignorant bikers may legally use.:rolleyes:

opti0nal

TTDublin wrote: »

Non mandatory cycle lanes maybe used by all transport. Non mandatory cycle lanes incidentally are usually found at junctions leading onto the cycle box which the ignorant bikers may legally use.:rolleyes:

Not exactly true. There is no such thing in law as a 'non-mandatory cycle lane'. There are cycle tracks. Those with contionuous white lines must not be entered by motor traffic. Those with broken white lines may be crossed by left turning motor traffic, but cyclists have priority in them. Motorists may not drive continuously in a cycle track.

One possible source of confusion is that the city council itself does not know the law and ofen uses unlawful signage or incorrect markings.

Of course, if a cycle track is in a bus lane, then the question of a motorcyclist using the cycle teack should not arise as motorcyclists are not allowed in bus lanes.

TTDublin

opti0nal wrote: »

Not exactly true. There is no such thing in law as a 'non-mandatory cycle lane'. There are cycle tracks. Those with contionuous white lines must not be entered by motor traffic. Those with broken white lines may be crossed by left turning motor traffic, but cyclists have priority in them. Motorists may not drive continuously in a cycle track.

One possible source of confusion is that the city council itself does not know the law and ofen uses unlawful signage or incorrect markings.

Of course, if a cycle track is in a bus lane, then the question of a motorcyclist using the cycle teack should not arise as motorcyclists are not allowed in bus lanes.

Ahem... you're wrong... http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-pedestrians-cyclists-motorcyclists/cyclists/cyclists_cycling-safely.html

Peanut2011

TTDublin wrote: »

Ahem... you're wrong... http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-pedestrians-cyclists-motorcyclists/cyclists/cyclists_cycling-safely.html

I would love to know how many of cyclist is Dublin alone know anything about those rules.

steve9859

TTDublin wrote: »

I always find it very amusing when I hear cyclists banging on about their rights and yet by enlarge they refuse to use the 'mandatory cycle lanes' break red lights and use the footpaths when it suits them. Their excuse is usually that the cycle lanes are poorly maintained.

Often they are miss informed believing that cycle lanes are for their private use which is wrong...
Non mandatory cycle lanes maybe used by all transport. Non mandatory cycle lanes incidentally are usually found at junctions leading onto the cycle box which the ignorant bikers may legally use.:rolleyes:

They are actually for cycle use only...see the same link http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-pedestrians-cyclists-motorcyclists/cyclists/cyclists_cycling-safely.html[/QUOTE]


A cycle track or lane is a reserved part of a roadway for bicycles (not motorcycles) and can be either:

• mandatory, or
• non-mandatory.

So I say again, those motorbikers who block the cycle lane and force cyclists to back up alongside whatever truck is waiting at the lights, rather than entering the cycle box, are both ignorant and breaking the rules

rubadub

TTDublin wrote: »

Ahem... you're wrong... http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-pedestrians-cyclists-motorcyclists/cyclists/cyclists_cycling-safely.html

He is correct in saying those terms do not exist in law. Many of the rules of the road are not law, but recommendations, they can use colloquialisms too. The law defines "cycleways" and "cycle tracks" there is no such thing as a "cycle lane" in Irish law. Check www.irishstatutebook.ie for the real laws

Many things people presume are cycletracks (aka mandatory cyclelanes) are technically footpaths, due to incorrect markings. e.g. many stretches along the N11 which are footpaths so a cyclist could argue this. I continue to illegally cycle on these "footpaths", since I fear for my own safety more than a I fear the courts.

Peanut2011 wrote: »

I would love to know how many of cyclist is Dublin alone know anything about those rules.

I would love to know how many people in general know about, and follow them too, not just ones who happen to own a bicycle. I don't think I have ever seen anybody following the ROTR advice and taking a torch with them after dark while walking on a footpath beside a road.

Peanut2011

steve9859 wrote: »

So I say again, those motorbikers who block the cycle lane and force cyclists to back up alongside whatever truck is waiting at the lights, rather than entering the cycle box, are both ignorant and breaking the rules

And if you look back that point was accepted and agreed. Most bikers will not do that.

So why keep on beating the same point?

Peanut2011

rubadub wrote: »

I would love to know how many people in general know about, and follow them too, not just ones who happen to own a bicycle. I don't think I have ever seen anybody following the ROTR advice and taking a torch with them after dark while walking on a footpath beside a road.

In that case I would invite you to have a stroll just outside of Dublin where street lighting is not so frequent. Many carry lights and wear the high viz clothing. Not something you could say many cyclists do in Dublin let alone pedestrians.

rubadub

Peanut2011 wrote: »

Many carry lights and wear the high viz clothing. Not something you could say many cyclists do in Dublin let alone pedestrians.

+1 makes perfect common sense, in poorly light regions I would also expect to see a higher % of people using lights & high-viz clothes while they are on a bicycle than when they are on foot. Just like in Dublin.

(I have not seen people with torches in dublin and you specifically mentioned dublin before)

Cienciano

opti0nal wrote: »

Ok so,

Motorcyclists break road traffic laws beacause 'every one else does it' and because it's a 'safer'.

A perfect storm of cognitive distortions.

If it's any comfort, I've seen the same patterns of self-deception in 'motors' when permitting themselves to break speed limits and amber lights.

It's no wonder that road safety campaigns don't work.

Funny, a cyclist making generalisations about motorcyclists breaking road traffic rules

steve9859

Peanut2011 wrote: »

And if you look back that point was accepted and agreed. Most bikers will not do that.

So why keep on beating the same point?

Sorry, I know there were most that agreed.

I was responding specifically to TTDublin who said:

"Often they are miss informed believing that cycle lanes are for their private use which is wrong...
Non mandatory cycle lanes maybe used by all transport. Non mandatory cycle lanes incidentally are usually found at junctions leading onto the cycle box which the ignorant bikers may legally use."

Peanut2011

rubadub wrote: »

(I have not seen people with torches in dublin and you specifically mentioned dublin before)

Ah I won't badger the point any more. That is why I was asking about cyclists in Dublin. With the traffic the way it is and poor standard of driving I would have imagined cyclists would want to make sure they stand out in the crowd and can be seen.

opti0nal

Cienciano wrote: »

Funny, a cyclist making generalisations about motorcyclists breaking road traffic rules

All classes of road user break the law.

The mechanism of how they come to do this is that they persuade themselves that they're entitled to do it. What we're seeing here is how many motorcyclists have convinced themselves that speeding or driving their motorbikes in bus lanes is acceptable ('safety reasons'). They're in denial. It's going to take some work to get them to repair their ways.

Of course, similar work is needed with cyclists, pedestrians and motorists, but the issue here is the behaviour of motorcyclists.

Sponge25

Cienciano wrote: »

Wow, I'm not going to mess with you if I'm ever in Bray. You taught that bad man a lesson, I hope his sore cheek reminds him that he messed with the wrong man.

Why not come out and be a smartass to my face!

Sponge25

Sponge25 wrote: »

Why not come out and be a smartass to my face!

Why? are you gonna give him a kiss?

Wossack

I think Ive been quite lucky really - I seem to get a very high amount of courtious drivers on my commute. I try and acknowledge each and every one of you with a little wave, but sometimes my hands are full with clutch and brake etc - I'd do the continental leg out (bikers in europe wave with their leg sometimes) but I'd be worried you'd think I was trying to boot your car

get the odd complete asshole too (pull out to block you, or lunge into your lane etc) but sure thats life. I may be stuck behind you for a little while longer, but you'll be a complete dick for the rest of your life

/edit oh, and contrary to a post earlier, I reckon the 'boyracers' (sic) are very observant, and, again in my experience, go that little bit further to accommodate my progress. I just hope you guys are checking for cyclists on the inside before swinging in for me