How much do you need to earn?

Tommy Dillon

OnTheCounter wrote: »

Tommy Dillon wrote: »

OnTheCounter wrote: »

Im not talking about having 2 new BMWs in the driveway, just a couple of motors to bring the kids to school, get to work, go to the supermarket, ect.

just a couple of motors to bring the kids to school,.....


That's the kinda thing that sickens me. Why don't the little ****heads walk. Healthier and you won't be clogging up the roads for everyone else?

you expect a bunch of 8 year old children walking to school in the p1ss rain, cold, wind carrying a bag bigger than they are so you get into less traffic jams?

In short yes..... Doesn't rain everyday. Little jimmy might even get some fresh air away from his Xbox for 10 mins . I don't remember being brought to school by car. I bet you weren't either. I don't understand why you feel the need to drop them to school. It's a joke

Sappa

Gurgle wrote: »

Sappa wrote: »

I love growing my own food,it's more a hobby than chore and the rewards both financially and health wise far outweigh the effort involved which is very little.

Mate, thats your hobby.
Don't fool yourself that you're saving any significant amount of money.

I save some money sure not a huge amount as I have always shopped around got groceries so never had the massive bills there but the old saying still rings through we got to budget within our means and this would mean no foreign holidays or cigarettes or alcohol if I am short on money i will nail down my priorities.

Gurgle

Sappa wrote: »

I save some money sure not a huge amount as I have always shopped around got groceries so never had the massive bills there but the old saying still rings through we got to budget within our means and this would mean no foreign holidays or cigarettes or alcohol if I am short on money i will nail down my priorities.

The question was:

OnTheCounter wrote:

These days how much does a young middle class family (2 adults, 2 children and a dog) need to earn annually after tax to get by?

That's what most of us are discussing on this thread, not an entitlement to cigarettes, alcohol and holidays.

Sappa

Gurgle wrote: »

Sappa wrote: »

I save some money sure not a huge amount as I have always shopped around got groceries so never had the massive bills there but the old saying still rings through we got to budget within our means and this would mean no foreign holidays or cigarettes or alcohol if I am short on money i will nail down my priorities.

The question was:

OnTheCounter wrote:

These days how much does a young middle class family (2 adults, 2 children and a dog) need to earn annually after tax to get by?

That's what most of us are discussing on this thread.

Then to answer this inwould say 45k and they should be putting 15-20 percent of this into a savings account.

Gurgle

Gurgle wrote: »

Mate, thats your hobby.
Don't fool yourself that you're saving any significant amount of money.

Just out of curiosity, do you work?
Do you have a house? a mortgage? kids?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056754695
That should tell you all you need to know.;)

Gurgle

Sappa wrote: »

Then to answer this inwould say 45k and they should be putting 15-20 percent of this into a savings account.

Gurgle wrote:

Just out of curiosity, do you work?
Do you have a house? a mortgage? kids?

Well now you've answered these questions too :P

Sappa

Yes I work as does my wife.
I have a mortgage but it's very little as we were able to cover 80% of the build from savings.
The fact that I am not a parent in no way pours folly on my previous estimates.
I do have older siblings who give me detailed estimates of running a family and how they live within there means.

Gurgle

Sappa wrote: »

The fact that I am not a parent in no way pours folly on my previous estimates.

You didn't give an estimate, you plucked a figure from thin air with no attempt to break it down.

Sappa wrote:

I do have older siblings who give me detailed estimates of running a family

€45k less 20% savings = €36k.
Go.

Keith186

OnTheCounter wrote: »

Firstly I'm not talking about a 22 year old single person whose biggest expense after rent is Saturday night.

These days how much does a young middle class family (2 adults, 2 children and a dog) need to earn annually after tax to get by?

Assuming these days both parents are working these are the costs faced by most assuming 1 kid in primary school and another in a creche:

Food
Mortage
Car payments X2
Creche costs
School related expenses
ESB
Gas/Oil
10 day foreign holiday
Health insurance X4
Car insurance X2
Petrol (unbelieveably expensive these days)
House insurance
Put aside a few euros for retirement/rainy day
Travel in Ireland
Christmas/Birthdays
House maintaince and appliances
Occasional entertainment costs
Clothes
Computer
Kids activities
Friends weddings/hotel/present
Ect

Basically to have a reasonable standard of living (not mtv cribs standard) but comfortable enough for a husband and wife who both have decent jobs how much do you need to earn? It might be good to give a breakdown of each individual cost to see where the expenses lie.

In an era of decreasing salaries, increasing costs and getting the bejaysus taxed out of us can an average family hope to be reasonably comfortable?

€72,842

Gurgle

Keith186 wrote: »

€72,842

Is that Crete or Malta?

Mr Benevolent

OnTheCounter wrote: »

These days how much does a young middle class family (2 adults, 2 children and a dog) need to earn annually after tax to get by?

No need for a pet, too expensive.

Mortage

Rent, it's more flexible, cheaper and if the rent becomes unaffordable, just move. No option to do that if you buy.

Car payments X2, Car insurance X2

Maybe you don't have access to public transport. One is enough. Buy secondhand and you won't have any car payments.

10 day foreign holiday

Make it seven days.

Petrol (unbelieveably expensive these days)

Don't drive as much. I save €90 a month by not going on random drives.

Clothes

Penneys.

Computer

Secondhand.

Friends weddings/hotel/present

Stupid expenses. Buy a friggin' card.

For myself and my girlfriend, we'd need to earn €45-65k total to have a comfortable life with kids. Since we have no kids and earn that already, happy days!

The above savings are all obvious, but many people don't get it. Why should you need to spend enough money on a car to require monthly payments? Buy one for €2-4k, sorted.

Gurgle

Confab wrote: »

The above savings are all obvious, but many people don't get it. Why should you need to spend enough money on a car to require monthly payments? Buy one for €2-4k, sorted.

Because everyone can find €2k lying around when they need it.:rolleyes:

Sleepy

Based on your headings, I'm thinking that in order to live that middle class lifestyle you suggest, you'd be looking at something upwards of the below for a two parent family (though I think my childcare costs look a bit low, my o/h is a stay at home mother so not much experience with them):

Category||Total|Source / Details
Food|200|10400|€200 a week
Mortage|1000|12000|1k per month
Keeping a Band C Car on the Road||3942.85|http://www.aaireland.ie/AA/Motoring-advice/Cost-of-motoring.aspx
Keeping a Band A Car on the Road (second c ar)||2382.79|(parking and AA membership costs removed)
Creche & After School costs||15600|Based on avg €200 per week * 1.5- http://www.thejournal.ie/childcare-costs-differ-by-50-per-cent-in-parts-of-the-country-82507-Feb2011/
School related expenses||500|http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/school-costs-could-reach-620-per-child-202772.html
ESB|250|1500|Personal experience of ESB bills
Gas/Oil|150|900|Past experience of Gas bills in a 4 bed semi
10 day foreign holiday||1872.86|"www.lowcostholidays.ie - 2 weeks in the Algarve, beginning of June"
Health insurance X4||1360|http://www.layahealthcare.ie - Essential first cover
Car insurance X2||0|included in AA figure
Petrol (unbelieveably expensive these days)||0|included in AA figure
House insurance||270.39|123.ie for a 3 bed semi in Clontarf
Put aside a few euros for retirement/rainy day||5000|http://www.pensionsboard.ie/en/Pensions_Calculators/
Travel in Ireland||500|guesstimate - 10 trips using €50 worth of fuel?
Christmas/Birthdays||1300|guesstimate @ €100 per birthday/christmas present within family and allowance of €500 for external presents
House maintaince and appliances||500|guesstimate
Occasional entertainment costs||1200|guesstimate @ 1 night out costing €50 per month for each parent
Clothes||500|guesstimate
Computer||720|"Broadband, TV and Phone package from UPC @ €60p.m."
Kids activities||1200|"guesstimate @ 2 days out per month costing €50 each (typical of NAC, Funtasia Waterpark etc.)"
Friends weddings/hotel/present||700|"Say two weddings per year, gift of €150, hotel @ €100, sundries @ €100"
Ect|||
||62348.89|

Timothy Bryce

OnTheCounter wrote: »

its shocking with all these taxes and levies that the vast majority of families are struggling yet the fcukers in the Dail on e92k+ a year think its ok to bring in water charges and a household charge that is looking likely to be 0.25% of the value of the property and who knows what else they will increase. bloody ESB is going up 6% and the average family would fill the oil tank twice a year and that is double the cost it was about 4 years ago. People cant take much more.

Oh boo-fcuking-hoo - there's a politician earning €92k in the Dail!? We must hunt these people down and pay them minimum wage ffs! There's plenty people all over the country earning more than that - in most cases they got there through hard work and probably a decent education.

Fcuk it, lets perform a seance and raise Stalin from the dead to turn our country in a communist paradise where every man, woman and child can gargle/smoke the tits off themselves, without having to give a single fcuk about motivation to get places in life.

TPD

OnTheCounter wrote: »

Firstly I'm not talking about a 22 year old single person whose biggest expense after rent is Saturday night.

Pretty much described me exactly. Living the dream :pac:

eth0

Sleepy wrote: »

Based on your headings, I'm thinking that in order to live that middle class lifestyle you suggest, you'd be looking at something upwards of the below for a two parent family (though I think my childcare costs look a bit low, my o/h is a stay at home mother so not much experience with them):

Or you could use my list and stick the remaining 45,000e into your back pocket

Sappa

Sleepy wrote: »

Based on your headings, I'm thinking that in order to live that middle class lifestyle you suggest, you'd be looking at something upwards of the below for a two parent family (though I think my childcare costs look a bit low, my o/h is a stay at home mother so not much experience with them):

Category||Total|Source / Details
Food|200|10400|€200 a week
Mortage|1000|12000|1k per month
Keeping a Band C Car on the Road||3942.85|http://www.aaireland.ie/AA/Motoring-advice/Cost-of-motoring.aspx
Keeping a Band A Car on the Road (second c ar)||2382.79|(parking and AA membership costs removed)
Creche & After School costs||15600|Based on avg €200 per week * 1.5- http://www.thejournal.ie/childcare-costs-differ-by-50-per-cent-in-parts-of-the-country-82507-Feb2011/
School related expenses||500|http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/school-costs-could-reach-620-per-child-202772.html
ESB|250|1500|Personal experience of ESB bills
Gas/Oil|150|900|Past experience of Gas bills in a 4 bed semi
10 day foreign holiday||1872.86|"www.lowcostholidays.ie - 2 weeks in the Algarve, beginning of June"
Health insurance X4||1360|http://www.layahealthcare.ie - Essential first cover
Car insurance X2||0|included in AA figure
Petrol (unbelieveably expensive these days)||0|included in AA figure
House insurance||270.39|123.ie for a 3 bed semi in Clontarf
Put aside a few euros for retirement/rainy day||5000|http://www.pensionsboard.ie/en/Pensions_Calculators/
Travel in Ireland||500|guesstimate - 10 trips using €50 worth of fuel?
Christmas/Birthdays||1300|guesstimate @ €100 per birthday/christmas present within family and allowance of €500 for external presents
House maintaince and appliances||500|guesstimate
Occasional entertainment costs||1200|guesstimate @ 1 night out costing €50 per month for each parent
Clothes||500|guesstimate
Computer||720|"Broadband, TV and Phone package from UPC @ €60p.m."
Kids activities||1200|"guesstimate @ 2 days out per month costing €50 each (typical of NAC, Funtasia Waterpark etc.)"
Friends weddings/hotel/present||700|"Say two weddings per year, gift of €150, hotel @ €100, sundries @ €100"
Ect|||
||62348.89|

I could knock 32000 of that easily,more motivation not to have kids.

My house must be one of the coldest in the country.

Gurgle

Sappa wrote: »

I could knock 32000 of that easily

Could, but not gonna?

Sleepy

We're a family of 4 and I'd have to knock that down to €36836.71 as my other half doesn't work so no second car or creche fees. No gas heating (ours is off storage heaters ), no house insurance required as we're renting (rent would be the same as the mortgage in that table). I'd also be excluding the health insurance and the family holiday as those are luxuries we just can't afford on my salary.

OnTheCounter

Going by a lot of people in this thread they are trying to figure out the absolute minimum required to live from month to month.

Im talking about people who went to university/learned a trade/started their own business/willing to work more than 35-40 hours a week to be able to give themselves and their family a decent quality of life - not having to grow vegatables in the backgarden to save e2 in Tesco.

I suspect that most if not all of the people in the thread who are laughing at the amounts are not trying to support a family and so have no idea how much it would cost.

Sometimes its better to stay quiet and defer to those more experienced.

desertcircus

Two cars is really not a necessity for most people. How many people live on major bus corridors, or near Luas or rail stops, or within walking distance of work, or within cycling range? If you work less than fifteen kilometres from your house, buy a damn bike. Pretending two cars is really necessary is fooling nobody but yourself.

OnTheCounter

Thread seems to have died off. General consensus (by people with families to support) seems to be in the region of e50k-e60k after tax.

Sleepy

OnTheCounter wrote: »

Going by a lot of people in this thread they are trying to figure out the absolute minimum required to live from month to month.

Im talking about people who went to university/learned a trade/started their own business/willing to work more than 35-40 hours a week to be able to give themselves and their family a decent quality of life - not having to grow vegatables in the backgarden to save e2 in Tesco.

I think the reality is that many of us who went to university, work long hours and do whatever we can to provide our families with a decent quality of life are finding it difficult to attain the life we'd like to in this economy...

Pottler

€2.5k a day, from the minute I wake up, regardless. That's the overhead. Anything more is a bonus, anything less is a loss. So, no pressure then.:)

Wanderer2010

The biggest misconception out there about earnings is "Oh you are single you are fine, no problems for you", never mind the fact that you may be caring for a sick relative, paying high rents, a loan, credit cards, etc. So many people are martyrs for having a mortgage and jealous/bitter of others so they presume they have no other bills to pay and are on easy street..

Personally, If i have enough to cover the rent, bills, food, credit card and even 70quid for myself at weekends or so Im happy

scwazrh

A lot of people seem to think that €50-60k a year for a household of 4 is middle class.To me middle class is a minimum of €100k a year.Anything less is working class, ie - you have to go to work to live .
All the things the op has listed form a middle class lifestyle not a €60 k a year , 3 bed semi lifestyle .Studying in college doesn't give you a middle class lifestyle , it gets you a job, if you're lucky.

Sleepy

scwazrh wrote: »

A lot of people seem to think that €50-60k a year for a household of 4 is middle class.To me middle class is a minimum of €100k a year.Anything less is working class, ie - you have to go to work to live .
All the things the op has listed form a middle class lifestyle not a €60 k a year , 3 bed semi lifestyle .Studying in college doesn't give you a middle class lifestyle , it gets you a job, if you're lucky.

In a sense I'd agree...

However, "working class" has extremely negative connotations of those who've never actually worked a day in their lives whilst "middle class" is as much defined by attitude and behaviour as income level or lifestyle.

Sappa

scwazrh wrote: »

A lot of people seem to think that €50-60k a year for a household of 4 is middle class.To me middle class is a minimum of €100k a year.Anything less is working class, ie - you have to go to work to live .
All the things the op has listed form a middle class lifestyle not a €60 k a year , 3 bed semi lifestyle .Studying in college doesn't give you a middle class lifestyle , it gets you a job, if you're lucky.

Your in for a shock when you enter the real world.

delad

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

The biggest misconception out there about earnings is "Oh you are single you are fine, no problems for you", never mind the fact that you may be caring for a sick relative, paying high rents, a loan, credit cards, etc. So many people are martyrs for having a mortgage and jealous/bitter of others so they presume they have no other bills to pay and are on easy street..

Single people are much worse off as it is without those things you mentioned. Couples have economies of scale in terms of having rent/mortgage/electricity/tv license/internet bill etc split in two.

scwazrh

I've ran my own business for the last 14 years,have kids ,wife is unemployed and have a massive mortgage . I think my world is pretty much as real as it gets:rolleyes:

antodeco

My outgoings are:

Tax/insurance/petrol €3000 pa
Pension €2000 pa
Life assurance €2000 pa
Phone bills €600 pa
UPC/ESB/Bord Gais €3000 pa

That's roughly €11000 pa

Food €2500 pa

€13500 pa is roughly what I need to come out with every year to pay for the very basics

School costs €1500 pa
Food €2000 pa

Another €3500 for my daughter

So yeah, €17000 a year for the basics. Considering I was on the dole for a year, you can see how my costs needed to be cut in half.

shadowcomplex

Single man , 35k after tax

Pottler

antodeco wrote: »

My outgoings are:

Tax/insurance/petrol €3000 pa
Pension €0pa
Life assurance €0 pa
Phone bills €600 pa
UPC/ESB/Bord Gais €3000 pa

That's roughly €6600 pa

Food €2500 pa

€8500 pa is roughly what I need to come out with every year to pay for the very basics

School costs €1500 pa
Food €0 pa cos I listed it above.

Another €500 for my daughter

So yeah, €10500 a year for the basics. Considering I was on the dole for a year, you can see how my costs needed to be cut in half.

Fixed it for you. off you go now.:D BTW the pension and the la are a waste of money. You're lining someone elses pockets.

eth0

Pottler wrote: »

Fixed it for you. off you go now.:D BTW the pension and the la are a waste of money. You're lining someone elses pockets.

Agree. Life assurance is where you take a bet with the provider about how long you're going to live. The only way to win is to die before they think you will and even then you won't be getting any use out of it

delad

I've been thinking about stopping my pension payments. We all know there is a pension timebomb thats going to go off, so it seems a bit stupid to continue contributing to a pension that is going to be worthless when we retire. What logical reason is there to throw good money after bad?

eth0

delad wrote: »

I've been thinking about stopping my pension payments. We all know there is a pension timebomb thats going to go off, so it seems a bit stupid to continue contributing to a pension that is going to be worthless when we retire. What logical reason is there to throw good money after bad?

Tis back to the 'convince someone younger to look after me when i'm ould' codology again. The Chinese will have all our money at that stage after years of buying cheap toasters and iPhones off them.

OnTheCounter

eth0 wrote: »

Agree. Life assurance is where you take a bet with the provider about how long you're going to live. The only way to win is to die before they think you will and even then you won't be getting any use out of it

clearly you dont have a mortgage so you are agreeing with something you know nothing about.

OnTheCounter

delad wrote: »

I've been thinking about stopping my pension payments. We all know there is a pension timebomb thats going to go off, so it seems a bit stupid to continue contributing to a pension that is going to be worthless when we retire. What logical reason is there to throw good money after bad?

the logical reason is to provide for your old age.

There are many different pension schemes (and tax benefits) to suit your preferences. Do a bit of homework.

LETHAL LADY

delad wrote: »

I've been thinking about stopping my pension payments. We all know there is a pension timebomb thats going to go off, so it seems a bit stupid to continue contributing to a pension that is going to be worthless when we retire. What logical reason is there to throw good money after bad?

Has there not been a population boom in Ireland to cover this so called timebomb and with the time value of money will this scare not correct itself eventually?

OnTheCounter

eth0 wrote: »

Tis back to the 'convince someone younger to look after me when i'm ould' codology again. The Chinese will have all our money at that stage after years of buying cheap toasters and iPhones off them.

that codology is called the state pension. It is enough to buy beans and toast if you are lucky enough not to be renting in your old age.

Maybe we should look at some of the older cultures? When you reach a certain age you are stuck in a small boat and sent out to sea to die. Thats the alternative to the "codology" if you cant afford to save and dont have a private pension.

OnTheCounter

Sleepy wrote: »

I think the reality is that many of us who went to university, work long hours and do whatever we can to provide our families with a decent quality of life are finding it difficult to attain the life we'd like to in this economy...

thats the whole problem.

It will be even harder next year with the additional taxes/charges/levies that will be introduced.

What can we do about it?

OnTheCounter

delad wrote: »

Single people are much worse off as it is without those things you mentioned. Couples have economies of scale in terms of having rent/mortgage/electricity/tv license/internet bill etc split in two.

the majority of single people live with other people also.

delad

OnTheCounter wrote: »

the logical reason is to provide for your old age.

There are many different pension schemes (and tax benefits) to suit your preferences. Do a bit of homework.

I have done my homework and know for a fact that most pension schemes in private companies in Ireland are bankrupt. Its not a secret either look it up, its just not given much attention in the media.

People retiring today are only getting about half what they were told they were going to get, some are getting close to nothing!

Why would anyone want that sort of uncertainty? Why would anyone want to put their future in someone else's hands? Why would anyone want to anxiously check the stock market every day when they are about to retire in case there is another crash?

I used to be a sheep and would blindly put money into a pension each month because that was the norm, that was the done thing to do. But now my eyes are wide fcukin open I'll tell you that.

OnTheCounter

delad wrote: »

I have done my homework and know for a fact that most pension schemes in private companies in Ireland are bankrupt. Its not a secret either look it up, its just not given much attention in the media.

People retiring today are only getting about half what they were told they were going to get, some are getting close to nothing!

Why would anyone want that sort of uncertainty? Why would anyone want to put their future in someone else's hands? Why would anyone want to anxiously check the stock market every day when they are about to retire in case there is another crash?

I used to be a sheep and would blindly put in money each month because that was the norm, that was the done thing to do, sure everyone else was doing it. But now my eyes are wide fcukin open I'll tell you that.

in your personal stock picks do you favour the fundamentals or technical analysis approach? What is your risk profile and portfolio strategy? All equity or have you diversified with various asset classes?

delad

OnTheCounter wrote: »

in your personal stock picks do you favour the fundamentals or technical analysis approach? What is your risk profile and portfolio strategy? All equity or have you diversified with various asset classes?

You don't get it, I'm not interested in investing my retirement money in the stock market which could crash the day before I retire. I am thinking about putting it in a high interest savings account, as long as I beat inflation that's all I care about. That way I know exactly what I have and can plan my future with a lot more precision, rather than having a pension fund which could be worth 250k when I retire............or it could be worth 40k.

OnTheCounter

delad wrote: »

You don't get it, I'm not interested in investing my retirement money in the stock market which could crash the day before I retire. I am thinking about putting it in a high interest savings account, as long as I beat inflation that's all I care about. That way I know exactly what I have and can plan my future with a lot more precision, rather than having a pension fund which could be worth 250k when I retire............or it could be worth 40k.

if you keep it in irish banks you are taking on more risk than you might think. Thats a separate issue to the thread topic though.

eth0

OnTheCounter wrote: »

that codology is called the state pension. It is enough to buy beans and toast if you are lucky enough not to be renting in your old age.

Maybe we should look at some of the older cultures? When you reach a certain age you are stuck in a small boat and sent out to sea to die. Thats the alternative to the "codology" if you cant afford to save and dont have a private pension.

Beans on toast it is then. If we still have a state left to provide us with a state pension.

Else bring back the viking culture of getting yout eldest son to behead you when you're too invalided to do any work. The boat method seems like tearing the arse out of it, would prefer to have it over quick and this way the son can still salvage some blood for making black pudding

Mr Benevolent

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

The biggest misconception out there about earnings is "Oh you are single you are fine, no problems for you", never mind the fact that you may be caring for a sick relative, paying high rents, a loan, credit cards, etc. So many people are martyrs for having a mortgage and jealous/bitter of others so they presume they have no other bills to pay and are on easy street..

Personally, If i have enough to cover the rent, bills, food, credit card and even 70quid for myself at weekends or so Im happy

Indeed. Saying you have a 'comfortable' lifestyle because you've saddled yourself with unceasing mortgage (a Latin phrase meaning 'dead hand') and credit card debt is not only hypocritical, it's ignoring the blinding reality. Saying that you should have a comfortable lifestyle because you went to university/have a trade/are self employed also flies in the face of our current economic situation.

Galwayguy35

Deleted User wrote: »

As glib as this may sound, having to think before spending money isn't the same as struggling financially.

I often hear people saying they're broke while spending 50 quid a week on cups of coffee and such needless things. A packed lunch saves a grand a year (assuming a fiver a day) and if that's two people it's two grand a year, that'll send a couple of kids back to school, cover a new washing machine and a few birthday presents.

This.

The guy I work with spends a fiver a day in the deli getting his lunch, I make my own lunch, savings can be made over the year if people think about it.

The way things are at the present every saving helps.