Quitting my PhD - thoughts?

Vojera

Hey everyone.

I've been studying for a PhD in biology for the past six years (yes, six :eek: ) and I've decided to throw in the towel. I have enough data for two results chapters, but the stuff for the 3rd just never worked and I asked just about every PI in the department for help and no one could figure it out.

I take part of the blame myself. I never got over my second year blues and I probably could have pushed myself harder, but mostly I blame my supervisor. I know that's an easy thing to do, but this particular person has been in trouble with the department before for being abusive towards pgs and has really bullied me and belittled me since I arrived. My self confidence and self esteem are really on the floor thanks to this woman.

She really hasn't supported me at all. There haven't been any postdocs or postgrads since my first year, so I'm alone in this. When I ask for her advice she just says "this really isn't my area, I don't know" (she has never done protein work EVER, but her postdocs and postgrads have always had massive amounts of protein analysis in their projects), she tells me she can't stand to look at me, that she just wants me gone, that I'm a failure. She took a year's sabbatical and left no one to mentor me, and then proceeded to ignore my emails and skype calls for over six months of that time (which I have documented). Her temper is unbelievable and when I finally got the courage to talk to the head of department about it, he said "by all rights I should put you into mediation, but I know the kind of her, it'll only make things worse for you". At the time I accepted that, but I now realise the department should have had a duty of care towards me and gone further with that knowledge.

I'm going to write a Masters and draw a line under the experience. Sometimes I think about bringing it up with the university about her, but I need a reference at the end of the day, and since they failed to act when I first brought the problem to their attention, I'm really afraid they'll close ranks to protect themselves.

So, I guess I'm wondering, has anyone else been in the same position, either with a crappy supervisor or quitting their PhD? How did it go for you? Any regrets? And even if you haven't been in that position, an objective opinion would be cool. Thanks.

Kilough

Hey Vojera,

She sounds like a complete wagon! Have you confronted her recently and told her that you're thinking of quitting? Surely it's in her interest to supervise a PhD to completion and not let the last 6 years go to waste. Also, is there any possibility of changing supervisors?
I know a guy in my dept that quit about 6 months ago, after doing 18 months. I think it was a mixture of him not getting on with his supervisor and a lack of interest in the subject itself. He seems pretty happy in his new job. I would say only time will tell whether or not you'll regret it, if you do quit.
Could you maybe write up the thesis anyway and go for a PhD VIVA? Maybe you're being harsh on yourself and you might pass. Even if you don't pass you could be told to write it up as an MPhil anyway. I know in my area, it's common to do a series of tests and not get the results that were hoped. In this case people often include this work anyway. It does contribute to the body of knowledge, whether or not it has been successful - especially if you can point out why it hasn't been a success.

Best of luck with your decision either way!

Dr Strange

I'm sorry to hear you have had such a bad experience. A good supervisor makes all the difference, partoicularly when you have a low period of time.

As for submitting a thesis for VIVA anyway, that wouldn't work as it has to be signed off by your supervisor before submission to external examination. There are some ways but it will be very difficult.

I would suggest to look at the procedures for a transfer of supervisor. If you can think of anyone who is in your field and may be open to taking you on there should be procedures available to you to change your supervisor. This is usually for extreme cases but I think you may have a good chance there. Best of luck!

Vojera

Thanks for the replies. Unfortunately there's no one in the department who could take me (we're a bit of a niche subject - don't want to explain what it is because otherwise people would be able to google and find out who I'm talking about). I've told my supervisor that I want to quit and write a Masters and her response was "great, you should have done it years ago". That and "I suppose I'm partly responsible... Actually, no, this is all you".

I'm going to go to the academic advisory office anyway to see what they reckon.

Dr Strange

Sounds like a nightmare of a supervisor. You're best rid of her.

djpbarry

Vojera wrote: »

...she tells me she can't stand to look at me, that she just wants me gone, that I'm a failure.

And you continued to work with her after this? There is absolutely no way I could possibly work with someone after hearing that from them. Not unless they made a grovelling apology at least.

Vojera wrote: »

...when I finally got the courage to talk to the head of department about it, he said "by all rights I should put you into mediation, but I know the kind of her, it'll only make things worse for you". At the time I accepted that, but I now realise the department should have had a duty of care towards me and gone further with that knowledge.

You have absolutely no option but to raise this with the department again. Don’t just walk away from it. There is absolutely no way your supervisor should ever have another PhD student under her watch.

Vojera wrote: »

I'm going to write a Masters and draw a line under the experience.

I would agree with other posters who have suggested you should explore every avenue that might get you to a PhD viva. You’ll regret it if you don’t.

There absolutely has to be someone out there working on a related topic? There has to be.

Vojera wrote: »

I've told my supervisor that I want to quit and write a Masters and her response was "great, you should have done it years ago". That and "I suppose I'm partly responsible... Actually, no, this is all you".

How do you take that? Seriously? You don’t deserve to be treated with such utter contempt and disrespect.

I know a guy. He’s good. He’ll make it look like an accident...

Tupamaros

djpbarry is absolutely correct, DO NOT let this go, for your sake and for the sake of future students who will have to deal with this clown.

I can speak somewhat from experience on this, as I have had to deal with a bad supervisor. In short, this supervisor was ideologically set against me early on (my field was Int. Relations), and gave me some stick. However, it really was trivial in comparison to what you've had to endure. To deal with my problem I went to the Dept. and outlined the story, they were sympathetic and found me an alternative supervisor. The supervisor is so, so important for your thesis, and I could simply not countenance dealing with months and months of crap and potentially actively avoiding meetings so as not to deal with them. I acted pretty soon after I knew the supervisor wasn't for me, but I can see how you may have gotten into a rut and started to get down on yourself, half believing your supervisor's crap.

Let me tell you, if what you say is accurate then it is not only grounds for a new supervisor for you and a massive apology from your department, but is a potentially sackable offense for your supervisor. Those comments are outrageous.

I would probably act as follows. I would talk to a member of staff you trust, and outline the craic and get some advice. I would then most likely call a meeting with the Dept. to air your grievances (nothing in writing as of yet), effectively but politely telling them they should provide you with a replacement. If you tell them what you have said here, they would be extremely negligent not to act. But if they don't, I would send them a letter outlining the situation and that due to the seriousness of the situation (this is 6 years of your life!) you will be seeking a meeting above your Dept. level along with your barrister. That will get their arses in gear trust me, do not let yourself be bullied.

avalon68

Tupamaros wrote: »

Let me tell you, if what you say is accurate then it is not only grounds for a new supervisor for you and a massive apology from your department, but is a potentially sackable offense for your supervisor. Those comments are outrageous

Unfortunately there are plenty more like this in Irish universities, and havent you heard.....its probably easier to win the lottery than get sacked from any public service job in Ireland!

[/QUOTE] I would probably act as follows. I would talk to a member of staff you trust, and outline the craic and get some advice. I would then most likely call a meeting with the Dept. to air your grievances (nothing in writing as of yet), effectively but politely telling them they should provide you with a replacement. If you tell them what you have said here, they would be extremely negligent not to act. But if they don't, I would send them a letter outlining the situation and that due to the seriousness of the situation (this is 6 years of your life!) you will be seeking a meeting above your Dept. level along with your barrister. That will get their arses in gear trust me, do not let yourself be bullied.[/QUOTE]

Personally, I feel every correspondance should be in writing so that you have a paper trail. Always be polite and professional - but I would call the Dept head, and then casually mention that you will also forward a written copy of your complaint to him and an external person (grad rep, student union....whoever), for their records. Its amazing what the threat of involving others and escalating your complaint can do. They are so used of people rolling over and taking it out of fear of losing references that it will surprise them to see you follow up on it. I doubt very much you would need a barrister (and if push came to shove, you could not realistically afford to take on a university) - at the end of the day you want your PhD and to get on with your life, not a drawn out legal battle.

stinkle

Hi I'm so sorry to hear about your dilemma. I had a dreadful supervisor too, but had other people on my side which really helped. Definitely see if you can change supervisor - surely the head of dept can arrange this. In my case the supervisor was the head but I was told the dean could approve instead. It flt good just to have those forms in my hand!

Is there a counselling service in your college? I went there first to have someone on my side if things escalated further. I never actually changed in the end as I hadn't long left and was advised not to rock the boat but I really regret this.

Try and write up all you have. I had a load of data that was inconclusive but was told it could make a chapter. Don't give up and get as much support as you can.

Tupamaros

avalon68 wrote: »

Unfortunately there are plenty more like this in Irish universities, and havent you heard.....its probably easier to win the lottery than get sacked from any public service job in Ireland!

I would probably act as follows. I would talk to a member of staff you trust, and outline the craic and get some advice. I would then most likely call a meeting with the Dept. to air your grievances (nothing in writing as of yet), effectively but politely telling them they should provide you with a replacement. If you tell them what you have said here, they would be extremely negligent not to act. But if they don't, I would send them a letter outlining the situation and that due to the seriousness of the situation (this is 6 years of your life!) you will be seeking a meeting above your Dept. level along with your barrister. That will get their arses in gear trust me, do not let yourself be bullied.[/QUOTE]

Personally, I feel every correspondance should be in writing so that you have a paper trail. Always be polite and professional - but I would call the Dept head, and then casually mention that you will also forward a written copy of your complaint to him and an external person (grad rep, student union....whoever), for their records. Its amazing what the threat of involving others and escalating your complaint can do. They are so used of people rolling over and taking it out of fear of losing references that it will surprise them to see you follow up on it. I doubt very much you would need a barrister (and if push came to shove, you could not realistically afford to take on a university) - at the end of the day you want your PhD and to get on with your life, not a drawn out legal battle.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I see what you are saying. To be honest, I would expect the Dept. to act once the threat of escalation is there. But if they don't act even with that (the student union etc. may not send shivers down the Depts. spine) I would bring it above the Dept. From my experience, and this was dealing with issues not as serious as the comments the OP describes, Depts. will react if they know you will pursue it. And not only that, I shudder to think of students in future years being allocated this person!

Vojera

Hey guys. Wow, I find it hard to believe how strongly you've reacted to the things I've said when they are at the absolute lower scale of what I've been dealing with for the last six years. I guess I've been a bit more brainwashed than I thought!

I went to the academic advisory office who have in turn directed me to the graduate studies office, so we'll see what happens.

molly87

Hi Vojera,

I couldn't read your post and not reply. I really feel so sorry for you what an awful situation to be in. I am in a very similiar situation myself at present - and I have made the decision to withdraw - just in the last 3 weeks! I think you really need to think about your self here - why do you want the PhD and what benefits will it bring to you? But also look at how you are feeling - and were you want your life to go!

I really enjoyed my masters which I done first, but had zero support from my supervisor the whole way through - this however, was compensated by having a brilliant 2nd supervisor who was based in a different University but was always on the other end of a phone or would invite me to his University for a week at a time when I was really struggling. I learnt a lot of skills, made great friends and then handed in!

While writing up my masters my supervisor applied for more funding which wass granted after year. I almost felt backmailed into going back and my supervisor really played the waste of funding on my mind heavily. Anyhow - I did think I wanted a career in acedemia and to lecture so decided to do the PhD as I knew I would prob feel I regreted it in later years.

Oh how wrong could I be - am over a year into my 3 year funded PhD at present and I still don't have a dataset to use, I have had absolutely no support al all - neither my supervisor or my 2nd supervisor know how to use any of the software I need to use and worse still, is that they really don't care. My supervisor spends hours bitching to me about other students and collagues - and dedicates all of his time to helping a person (not one of his students) write up a PhD - which I know he is getting paid cash in hand for! He has absolutely know interest in research and his disregard to my research actually disgusts me. I could write for hours on all of his horrible comments and failings.

BUT anyway - this summer while spending another evening in tears, pulling my hair out it finally dawned on me - what I am actually doing - only wasting my 20's doing a PhD that I actually don't think is even doable because of the lack of data. I've really really tried and while making the decision to walk away has been the hardest decision I've ever faced I know I've made the right choice. It literally feels like a weight lifted off my shoulders and truth be told I couldn't be happier at the minute. Helped alomg by the fact I am after walking straight into my dream job!

Its had to believe how some supervisors treat their students - and that there really isn't a correct procedure to deal with it. Like you my supervisor is very friendly with the head of the school and when I went to him I was basically warned to keep my mouth shout or I'd never get a job and again like you - there was no one else who could take me on due to the subject of the PhD.

To finish - really think about yourself and what is best for you, think about your health, esp your mental health as situations like this can often distroy your confidence, don't let anybody else's opinion play onyour mind - this is your life so they don't get to have a say. If you decide to finish it I wish you the best of luck and if you decide like me that it isn't worth it, then realise that things will fall into place, draw a line and move on, life is for living and being happy after all.

myphd

After six years it is the supervisors fault that you are not at a stage of submission for a PhD thesis, this is GROSS NEGLIGENCE.

Contact your Dean of Graduate Studies and make an appointment. At this meeting outline in writing the sequence of events of your PhD progression. Were there annual reports on progress? Were there regular meetings on progress with your supervisor? Does the University have a policy for progression reports? Did these reports provide feedback for your progress?. Did you document any of the meetings? Did the supervisor document any of these meetings? The supervisor CANNOT say after six years that you should have written a Masters years ago. This is GROSS Negligence on the part of the supervisor.

What is the University policy responsibility on progression? Was this evoked? Arrange a meeting with the Dean of Graduate Studies, The Head of Department, Assistant Dean of Research and anyone else involved in post graduate research at your University. Bring your solicitor (- it is worth it after six years of your life or BARRISTER) to this meeting.

Before this meeting meet with your solicitor and ask about your options in regard to gross negligence on the part of university and supervisor, lack of appropriate supervision and for not putting in place proper procedures for your successful completion or exit if progress was not being accomplished.

Do not be afraid of this process, it is the Universities responsibility to protect its post graduate students.