When will the Muslim world relax?

Banbh

But we can appraise Islam, and Judaism, Catholicism etc. These are associations with codes of practice, membership, rules and regulations.

They are also associations that seek state power to impose their codes on non-members and on society generally. It is this power that needs to be opposed by those who value freedom of speech, freedom of association and equal rights.

ShooterSF

old hippy wrote: »

This is going to sound flimsy but I usually go more on experience and people I know, rather than polls.

And I'm not naieve, of course there are extremists out there. But to tar everyone with the same brush, as some do, is ridiculous.

I like to think the best of humanity but I'm not going to put my hopes or personal experience above evidence to the contrary. For what it's worth I don't think Muslim people are any different to anyone else but rather that the evidence points to how bad an idea it is to give control of a nation (and it's education system) to people who genuinely believe in the religion they espouse as opposed to people who just use it to control the masses. I'm pretty sure you could swap out Islam for most religions perhaps adopting the apostasy part and you'd end up with similar results.

Nodin

Banbh wrote: »

But we can appraise Islam, and Judaism, Catholicism etc. These are associations with codes of practice, membership, rules and regulations.

They are also associations that seek state power to impose their codes on non-members and on society generally. It is this power that needs to be opposed by those who value freedom of speech, freedom of association and equal rights.

....as long as you don't take it out on ordinary Jews, muslims and catholics who don't give a crap what anyone else does/don't interfere with you. Live and let live.

Banbh

And what of ordinary members of the Nazi party or the Ku Klux Klan?

Without ordinary members these organisations would not exist. If one is a member of an organisation - paying subscriptions, following the code, participating in the furtherence of that organisation - then one shares responsibility for the abuses perpetrated by that organisation.

If I revere a book that advocates genocide or paedophilia, am I not partly to blame when others of my organisation carry out such acts?

Nodin

Banbh wrote: »

And what of ordinary members of the Nazi party or the Ku Klux Klan?

Without ordinary members these organisations would not exist. If one is a member of an organisation - paying subscriptions, following the code, participating in the furtherence of that organisation - then one shares responsibility for the abuses perpetrated by that organisation.

If I revere a book that advocates genocide or paedophilia, am I not partly to blame when others of my organisation carry out such acts?

A sad and rather bigoted generalisation which belies the reality. Most who identify as "catholic" wouldn't pass a standardised test on catholic dogma, yet here you are tarring them all with the same brush. There is no point in replacing the unthinking intolerance of religion with a secularised equivalant.

On a related note - do you stand in a queue in Lidl or Dunnes and shudder at being surrounded by such folk?

ShooterSF

Nodin wrote: »

A sad and rather bigoted generalisation which belies the reality. Most who identify as "catholic" wouldn't pass a standardised test on catholic dogma, yet here you are tarring them all with the same brush. There is no point in replacing the unthinking intolerance of religion with a secularised equivalant.

On a related note - do you stand in a queue in Lidl or Dunnes and shudder at being surrounded by such folk?

To be fair the Catholic church only has the weight it has or any church because people refuse to see that they aren't really members (philosophically). States all over are still discussing gay marriage with churches because they are seen as big lobby groups with many members because of the ordinary members. The KKK is a comparison I've made before. If 100 million people joined the KKK for the cake parties but didn't really agree with the racism the KKK would still rightly claim to be a powerful lobby group on all their issues and it rightly would infuriate non-members who see people, who don't even share the KKK's core views, supporting them.

Banbh

I'm accused of being a bigot for opposing bigotry? Well I am bigoted against intolerance, injustice and the rest of the stuff peddled by religion.

Of course there are many who kneel at shrines, burn candles and mumble meaningless mantras who are normal in other areas of life but they are the enablers of the badness.

Live and let live indeed! This is, I believe, my entitlement, won by generations of free-thinkers and free-speakers. Accepting less for anyone - women, gays, children - is accepting less for all. If this were a slogan of religion then there would be no problem.

And I haven't a clue what the Dunnes Stores remark is about. Is it not possible to discuss ideas and exchange views?

Nodin

Banbh wrote: »

I'm accused of being a bigot for opposing bigotry?

You take an attitude with ordinary people because they're nominally of some denomination, and assign to them the worst attitudes of the extremists of that denomination. Text book stuff.

Nodin

ShooterSF wrote: »

To be fair the Catholic church only has the weight it has or any church because people refuse to see that they aren't really members (philosophically). States all over are still discussing gay marriage with churches because they are seen as big lobby groups with many members because of the ordinary members. The KKK is a comparison I've made before. If 100 million people joined the KKK for the cake parties but didn't really agree with the racism the KKK would still rightly claim to be a powerful lobby group on all their issues and it rightly would infuriate non-members who see people, who don't even share the KKK's core views, supporting them.

While that's true, its still no reason to attack the proverbial non-racist KKK member as if they were out there lynching and brutalising people.

Banbh

I take an attitude with ordinary people? Who are these 'ordinary' people and where do I take an attitude with them?

I have a view on Islam and its adherents, on Judaism and its adherents and on Christianity and its adherents and all the others and their adherents and I've tried to engage in a debate on what I perceive as the evils of these - with Islam way out in front.

And Nodin "non-racist KKK members"?
What, they only lynch white homosexuals?

In any ways, I've done my best...

Nodin

Banbh wrote: »

I take an attitude with ordinary people? Who are these 'ordinary' people and where do I take an attitude with them?

........

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81067361&postcount=336

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81050214&postcount=319

robindch

MagicMarker wrote: »

There's a protest outside Google in Barrow St atm, I can't see anything but the Guards have the road blocked off and I can hear the crowd every now and again.

Thousands of muslims are outside Google's offices in London today protesting the video too. And apparently threatening a much larger protest in the weeks to come.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9607763/Muslims-protest-age-of-mockery-as-thousands-descend-on-Google-HQ.html

Some Sheikh wrote:

The makers of this film have terrorised 1.6 billion people.

Daily Telegraph wrote:

When asked where where the women attending the protest were, one protester replied: "Right at the back".

SeanW

Some news from Mali, where Islamists have taken control, a 15 year old girl was recently given 60 lashes for the "crime" of talking to some men ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/mali-girl-in-timbuktu-gets-60-lashes-for-speaking-to-men-on-the-street/2012/10/15/86f7a168-16f5-11e2-a346-f24efc680b8d_story.html

"Religion of Peace" my hole.

pauldla

SeanW wrote: »

Some news from Mali, where Islamists have taken control, a 15 year old girl was recently given 60 lashes for the "crime" of talking to some men ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/mali-girl-in-timbuktu-gets-60-lashes-for-speaking-to-men-on-the-street/2012/10/15/86f7a168-16f5-11e2-a346-f24efc680b8d_story.html

"Religion of Peace" my hole.

That is just vile beyond words.

old hippy

Humans have an extraordinary capacity to be stupid, vile and ignorant. It's all around us, not just confined to the "Muslim World".

SeanW

old hippy wrote: »

Humans have an extraordinary capacity to be stupid, vile and ignorant. It's all around us, not just confined to the "Muslim World".

Perhaps, but the Muslim world (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mali, Afghanistan/Pakistan, Somalia, to name a few) seem to demonstrate this capacity more than the rest of the world.

Nodin

SeanW wrote: »

Perhaps, but the Muslim world (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mali, Afghanistan/Pakistan, Somalia, to name a few) seem to demonstrate this capacity more than the rest of the world.

I'd suggest that says more about your knowledge of the world (specifically a lack of it) than anything else.

long range shooter

Nodin wrote: »

I'd suggest that says more about your knowledge of the world (specifically a lack of it) than anything else.

In your opinion:rolleyes:
Didnt know you where such a world traveller??

Nodin

long range shooter wrote: »

In your opinion:rolleyes:
Didnt know you where such a world traveller??

There's some point you're trying to make, I take it?

long range shooter

Nodin wrote: »

There's some point you're trying to make, I take it?

Everyone doesnt have to share your view of the world either,get my point

SeanW

Nodin wrote: »

I'd suggest that says more about your knowledge of the world (specifically a lack of it) than anything else.

How so?

Much of the homophobia, anti-semitism, misogny, refusal to integrate, extremism, degenerate cruelty (like amputations, brutal ultra-conservative laws and culture, burkhas etc), ridiculous over-sensitivity to percieved insults, agressive world view seems to be associated with the "Religion of Peace."

I have no problem with normal people who just happen to pray to the East 5 times a day. Unfortunately that's not the kind of Islam that's calling the shots in large parts of the world.

To deny that Islam has branches that are barbaric and stuck in the dark ages (like Wahabbism) is frankly incomprehensible.

Just remembering the introduction of Star Trek, the Next Generation, where Q orders Captain Picard to go back to Earth because humanity is a savage race. "At which time (the 20th century) you slaughtered millions, in silly arguments about how to divide the resources of your little world. And 400 years before that you were murdering each other over tribal god images"

Only now, 25 years later, some of us have started doing that again, re: pictures/insults of Mohammed.

Nodin

long range shooter wrote: »

Everyone doesnt have to share your view of the world either,get my point

No.

Nodin

SeanW wrote: »

How so?

Much of the homophobia, anti-semitism, misogny, refusal to integrate, extremism, degenerate cruelty (like amputations, brutal ultra-conservative laws and culture, burkhas etc), ridiculous over-sensitivity to percieved insults, agressive world view seems to be associated with the "Religion of Peace."
............

I'd suggest you aqquaint yourself with the tamil-buddhist conflict in Sria lanka, India ( particularily rural areas), womens life in guatamala, El Salvador, Burma, South Africa, Mexico....

SeanW

Nodin wrote: »

I'd suggest you aqquaint yourself with the tamil-buddhist conflict in Sria lanka, India ( particularily rural areas), womens life in guatamala, El Salvador, Burma, South Africa, Mexico....

That's funny, a friend of mine married a woman from Mexico, and it didnt appear to me that she had a horrible life in Mexico beforehand (already had a bachelors qualification, and something of a career i think).

You mention Latin America a lot as a place where women have bad lives comparable (I guess) to what they have in Saudi Arabia under Wahabbism? That wouldn't happen to be the same Latin America where Uruguay just passed a law allowing early pregnancy abortions? That's straight out of Western feminisms' demand book.

Nodin

SeanW wrote: »

That's funny, a friend(........)demand book.

Guatemala

A majority of Guatemalan women will be victims of some form of violence during their lifetime. Indigenous women, particularly in rural areas, also face marginalization and discrimination. In the last 10 years, high rates of brutal sexual violence and femicide have made Guatemala one of the most dangerous places in the world to be a woman. More than 6,000 women have been murdered in Guatemala since 2000.

http://www.ghrc-usa.org/Programs/ForWomensRighttoLive/Delegation.htm

While impunity prevails across the majority of crimes in Guatemala, gender bias and acceptance of violence against women as the norm characterizes impunity in the specifics of cases of violence against women.[

http://www.monitor.upeace.org/innerpg.cfm?id_article=893

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR34/017/2005/en/dd367c74-d4fe-11dd-8a23-d58a49c0d652/amr340172005en.html

Mexico

Liliana Rojero Luevano, executive secretary of Mexico's National Women's Institute, said a national opinion poll carried out in 2006 on the dynamics of domestic relations showed that 70 per cent of Mexican women surveyed had suffered domestic violence.

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/americas/news/article_1376572.php/In_Mexico_80_per_cent_of_murdered_women_killed_by_family_members

In 2009 alone, public prosecutor’s office round the country received 14,829 reports of rape – an alarming number considering that most women do not report these crimes. Only 2,795 convictions were achieved in the courts.

Most cases are not effectively investigated and insufficient measures are taken to protect the survivors.

The case of San Salvador Atenco is emblematic. More than 26 women were sexually assaulted by police when detained during demonstrations in 2006. The denial of access to justice by both state and federal authorities in spite of enquiries and recommendations by the National Human Rights Commission and the National Supreme Court has forced 9 of the women to take their case to the Inter American Commission of Human Rights.
Amnesty International’s submission also details the increased level of threats and attacks against women human rights activists who worked to ensure justice for their murdered relatives.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/mexico-fails-tackle-increased-levels-violence-against-women-2012-07-11

El Salvador

According to a report published in February 2012, El Salvador currently has the highest rate of femicide – killings of women – in the world. A rate of 12 femicides per 100,000 people places El Salvador at the top of a category of 12 countries with ‘very high’ femicide rates, which also includes neighbouring countries Guatemala and Honduras.

Indeed, violence against women and girls is a much more widespread issue than femicide, which is at the most extreme end. NGOs working on preventing and tackling violence against women in El Salvador highlight the continued widespread perception that violence against women is ‘normal’, a lack of awareness of women’s rights (now stipulated under a new special law to tackle violence against women), a lack of ‘safe havens’ for women, and impunity and a lack of capacity in the justice sector.

http://blogs.fco.gov.uk/zoesmith/2012/08/22/tackling-violence-against-women-in-el-salvador/


Burma

............Burmese military soldiers are raping the ethnic women and girls with impunity. Women and girls from the Shan, Kachin, Chin, Karen, Mon, Karenni and Arakan states have long suffered under these state-sanctioned sex crimes. Rape incidents in ethnic areas are higher than anywhere else in Burma because they are part of the regime’s strategy to punish the armed resistance groups or used as a tool to repress various peoples in the larger agenda of ethnic cleansing.

http://thewip.net/contributors/2008/06/rape_in_burma_a_weapon_of_war.html

A small sample.

long range shooter

Nodin wrote: »

Guatemala


http://www.ghrc-usa.org/Programs/ForWomensRighttoLive/Delegation.htm


http://www.monitor.upeace.org/innerpg.cfm?id_article=893

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR34/017/2005/en/dd367c74-d4fe-11dd-8a23-d58a49c0d652/amr340172005en.html

Mexico


http://news.monstersandcritics.com/americas/news/article_1376572.php/In_Mexico_80_per_cent_of_murdered_women_killed_by_family_members


http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/mexico-fails-tackle-increased-levels-violence-against-women-2012-07-11

El Salvador


http://blogs.fco.gov.uk/zoesmith/2012/08/22/tackling-violence-against-women-in-el-salvador/


Burma


http://thewip.net/contributors/2008/06/rape_in_burma_a_weapon_of_war.html

A small sample.

How many of these women are being beaten because their religion says its ok to do so?
The Quran does.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/beating.htm

Nodin

long range shooter wrote: »

How many of these women are being beaten because their religion says its ok to do so?
The Quran does.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/beating.htm

According to manythe Bible does as well.

The truth is that seperating what goes on because of culture and what goes on because of religion is a hard thing to do. It is, however, clearly observable and a fact that as we go down the socio-economic scale, the treatment of women worsens.

long range shooter

Nodin wrote: »

According to manythe Bible does as well.

The truth is that seperating what goes on because of culture and what goes on because of religion is a hard thing to do. It is, however, clearly observable and a fact that as we go down the socio-economic scale, the treatment of women worsens.

Yes unfortunately.:mad:
Allthough its hard to understand why someone does it.:eek:

MrPudding

This really winds me up:

http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2012/11/new-calls-from-islamists-for-international-blasphemy-law-at-un

MrP

pauldla

MrPudding wrote: »

This really winds me up:

http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2012/11/new-calls-from-islamists-for-international-blasphemy-law-at-un

MrP

Yeah. Me too.

"If the international community has criminalized bodily harm, it must just as well criminalize psychological and spiritual harm," he (the head of the Arab League, Nabil Elaraby) said.

Dare I hope that he is speaking against organised religion? Or dare I hope in one hand and poop in the other to see which one fills first?

robindch

robindch wrote: »

Russia has announced that, later this year, "all of YouTube could be blocked throughout Russia" owing to the extremist content of the video, while something translated into English as "a government watchdog" was recommending that it be banned immediately

Russia bans youtube nationwide. Accidentally of course.

http://www.thejournal.ie/russia-ban-youtube-mistake-683603-Nov2012/

TheJournal wrote:

WEB-SURFING RUSSIANS ENDURED a brief scare today when it appeared that authorities had blocked YouTube after the video-sharing site appeared on a list of banned addresses, in what officials later called a “technical mistake”.

The new registry of blacklisted websites introduced this month showed the website youtube.com as having been added there on Wednesday by Russia’s consumer protection agency and remained on it for several minutes. After a media furore swiftly ensued, the agency’s head Gennady Onishchenko told Russian news agencies that the intention was to ban 22 specific videos, rather than the whole service, notably ones giving instructions on how to commit suicide.

The spokesman for communications ministry’s watchdog responsible for the website registry Vladimir Pikov called the incident a “technical mistake”, without giving further explanations. Russians have been worried about an impending Internet crackdown ever since the hasty recent passage of a law which introduced the concept of the blacklist.

Supporters said it was necessary for blocking harmful content, including suicide manuals, child pornography, and information on illicit drugs, but critics saw it as yet another measure to suppress free speech following President Vladimir Putin’s election to a historic third term in May. The legislation was protested by many global websites, including Russian search engine Yandex and Wikipedia, who warned that the mechanism behind the blacklist could be used for a blanket shutdown of popular social networks.

Dades

"In Soviet Russia - YouTube watches YOU."

Sorry - you know I'm a sucker for these!

expectationlost

really wish some atheist would deal with the real issues,
religous wars = wars for land and resources
creationism and global warming denial = polluting industrialist trying to protect their profit

not people making smart comments about people going to war over sky gods, even the teaching of creationism is schools is secondary to local rich guys trying to protect their pollutting industries

swampgas

expectationlost wrote: »

really wish some atheist would deal with the real issues,
religous wars = wars for land and resources
creationism and global warming denial = polluting industrialist trying to protect their profit

not people making smart comments about sky gods, even the teaching of creationism is schools is secondary to local rich guys trying to protect their pollutting industries

We can do both. Although on this forum, we tend to focus on atheism and religion.

IMO religion promotes faulty thinking (e.g. promoting faith in authority over evidence), which can have an impact on other issues as well.

expectationlost

swampgas wrote: »

We can do both. Although on this forum, we tend to focus on atheism and religion.

IMO religion promotes faulty thinking (e.g. promoting faith in authority over evidence), which can have an impact on other issues as well.

im saying that the purpose of heightened religion in the case of teaching creationism is to prevent people taking a hard look at us using up all our resources in industry, its not a secondary effect.


but maybe alot of atheist don't want to address this reality but they don't disagree with those policies