Dublin Used to Have the Best Mass Transit System in the World

OurLadyofKnock

It was called the Dublin United Tramway Company. The city was criss-crossed in state of the art electric trams which were powered by the most modern power station of its time out in Pidgeon House.

I am reading a book called Through Streets Broad and Narrow which is now sadly out of print. The trams offered late night services, zonal fare structure with integrated ticketing - something we still do not properly have in 2012. One of the reasons for their demise was they could not afford to convert their ticketing machines to bi-lingual as they used a symbol coded system. They also ran late night freight trains with electric locos which hauled everything from coal to rubbish.

check out the system in 1922. You could travel from Dalkey to Howth Head and from Ballymun Road to Lucan all by tram.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/Dublin_1922-23_Map_Suburbs_MatureTrams_wFaresTimes_Trains_EarlyBus_Canals_pub.png/795px-Dublin_1922-23_Map_Suburbs_MatureTrams_wFaresTimes_Trains_EarlyBus_Canals_pub.png

Apparently the system was the pride of Dublin until something called Córas Iompair Éireann and replaced it with crap buses which ran when the unions felt like it.

humbert

I think people know the most of that, what's to discuss?

later12

I wasn't.

That's mad. Look how extensive that network was compared to today.

Iarnrod Eireann ; take heed!

OurLadyofKnock

humbert wrote: »

I think people know the most of that, what's to discuss?

I don't think a lot of people do know this to be honest.

The_Kew_Tour

Didnt know that!

This could be good thread, which is rare in AH

OurLadyofKnock

I love the way the Howth tram line (which belonged to the Great Northern Railway) doubles back on itself to INTERGRATE with the DUT trams and Commuter Rail system at Sutton. Something you see in the continent all the time. Logical and user friendly.

3ndahalfof6

fianna fail, is there nothing they have not destroyed.

Dempsey

Didnt know much about the tram system in Dublin, should never have been ripped up. Short sighted Ireland at its best though!

mikemac1

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/exhibition/dublin/transport/9.jpg

Tram timetable

There were colourful symbols as a lot of the locals were illiterate

Lots of info on the census site

OurLadyofKnock

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

fianna fail, is there nothing they have not destroyed.

To be fair it was Fine Gael which tried to shut down the entire rail network including the DART in 1987 when they cut off investment.

Imagine they had of done this and the Celtic Tiger came along with no no DART and no Commuter Rail system around Dublin. Mayhem.

The problem in this country is we have politicians, media and economists who have this uniquely insane Irish notion that public trainsport exists to make a profit for the Department of Finance. This is why they RAISE fares when people stop using it.

If you were to read the editorials against the building of DART in the early 1980's you would laugh. They were saying Dublin would have New York style Subway gangs having gun battles under the city centre. Staggering stuff to read now - yet not much has changed.

later12

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

fianna fail, is there nothing they have not destroyed.

Fine Gael were in Government when the first tram route was cancelled, and oversaw the last closure as well.

That's not a FG bashing excercise, I'm just pointing out that this ridiculous desire to blame FF for everything really must end somewhere.

Cee-Jay-Cee

So they had a transit system to take people to mass. Just goes to show how much influence the catolicks had on the country.

Iwannahurl

It took this country's authorities six decades or so to reinvent the tram.

In the meantime, some citizens actually began to believe that the streets of Dublin (even O'Connell Street) were primarily designed for cars.

I remember seeing this photo years ago. The last Dublin tram needed a Garda escort to prevent souvenir hunters from stripping it.

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/environment-geography/transport/20th-century-transport-in/dublin-trams-1/

OurLadyofKnock

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It took this country's authorities six decades or so to reinvent the tram.

In the meantime, some citizens actually began to believe that the streets of Dublin (even O'Connell Street) were designed for cars.

I remember seeing this photo years ago. The last Dublin tram needed a Garda escort to prevent souvenir hunters from stripping it.

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/environment-geography/transport/20th-century-transport-in/dublin-trams-1/

If you can dig it out there is a Dublin Transport Plan from the 1930's which demanded the closing of all trams and rail lines in the city and turning O'Connell Street into a runway and the GPO into an airport terminal. Not kidding.

mikemac1

I seem to remember plans from the late seventies or maybe early eighties about filling in the Royal and Grand canals in Dublin and turning them into roads.

I don't know the exact date but CJ Haughey was quoted on it, I forget what he wanted to do

So very recent in the scheme of things

I'm sure you'd find plans if anyone wanted to search

mikemac1

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

If you can dig it out there is a Dublin Transport Plan from the 1930's which demanded the closing of all trams and rail lines in the city and turning O'Connell Street into a runway and the GPO into an airport terminal. Not kidding.

Sure Collinstown and Baldonnel already existed

Pure madness :pac:

namloc1980

The problem was that by the 1930's and 40's the Dublin trams were badly in need of investment and upgrade. Coupled with that the expanding Dublin suburbs outside the reach of the tram system were now being serviced by bus which was cheaper to run, faster and much more flexible than trams. The perception at the time was that trams were an outdated technology and the bus was the future. The same thing happened in Cork, which also had an extensive tram system and suburban railway network until most of it was shut down by the 1940's.

Larianne

mikemac1 wrote: »

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/exhibition/dublin/transport/9.jpg

Tram timetable

There were colourful symbols as a lot of the locals were illiterate

Lots of info on the census site

When was this from? Must show my Dad and see if he remembers it.

mikemac1

1911

WhimSock

This interests me. I found out while researching the family tree that my great grandpappy was a tram driver.

talla10

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

fianna fail, is there nothing they have not destroyed.

A lot done, more to do

OurLadyofKnock

WhimSock wrote: »

This interests me. I found out while researching the family tree that my great grandpappy was a tram driver.

They were one of the largest employers in the city. They also employed many Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe.

Dublin's image of a wee backward catholic town really only came about from the 1920's on. Before that was just like many cities in Europe.

OurLadyofKnock

mikemac1 wrote: »

1911

Over 100 years later and we are still not even close to what the DUT offered back then.

ScumLord

Sure the country had an extensive national rail network too but it was shut down because.... **** trains?

mikemac1

Train tunnel through Galway too, it partly exists,

You can see the entrance if you walk the pathway to Renmore

Through Fairgreen, under Bohermore, along the embankment at Woodquay and then over the Corrib
Spectacular!

All long gone

Lots of photos in the Park House Hotel if you ever walk to drop in

3ndahalfof6

ScumLord wrote: »

Sure the country had an extensive national rail network too but it was shut down because.... **** trains?

This is true, I remember walking them when I was a youngster, great hunting ground (miles of them), then they took most of the bridges down, they are all overgrown now, you would never know they existed.

GerM

ScumLord wrote: »

Sure the country had an extensive national rail network too but it was shut down because.... **** trains?

Because it was not economically viable. Every country shut down their rail networks outside major lines once paved roads came to pass and Ireland was no different in the 1960s and 1970s.

mike65

I'll throw in this incendiary thought - under "da Brits" public transport was well funded and managed (within the context of the era), once independence has been achieved no money was spent as Dev was happy to rule over a moribund economy behind high tariff walls. Everything gradually got ran down to the point where scraping whole systems was inevitable and the bumpy road given free reign, throw in planning that was based on low grade geographic spread rather than quality high density living and a coherent public transport system Dublin was doomed.

OurLadyofKnock

GerM wrote: »

Because it was not economically viable. Every country shut down their rail networks outside major lines once paved roads came to pass and Ireland was no different in the 1960s and 1970s.

Some sucessful lines were closed - even after decades of CIE doing their best to kill off the passenger numbers. The West Cork, Harcourt Street and Waterford and Tramore should never have been closed. Neither should the Athlone and Millingar line as it integrated the entire systems and provided a fast route from Dublin to Galway with direct train services from Connolly under the Phoenix Park Tunnel - compare to the current route which practically enters Munster before swinging back up to Galway. The old direct line from Clonsilla to Navan should of remained too.

Just about all the other should of been now closed as many were badly built to begin with.

We the makings of a fantastic rail system in 1964 as all nearly the lines which remained opened were the right ones. But guess what... they still kept wrecking them and stll are.

snubbleste

Sure Dublin was the second city in the globe spanning Empire at the time. It was only fitting that it had such a tram system. Now it's just a backwater in a quasi euro-federal state.

suicide_circus

Foresight and planning has been and remains the greatest obstacle to progress on this island.

I wonder.....

Would it be possible to get one of them old trams onto the modern LUAS system?

I think it would if you got old bogies from the Blackpool tram lines & put them on the old ones in Howth museum.

Anyone think it's a runner?

Lone Stone

i never knew this, what a shocking lack of foresight.

ejmaztec

mike65 wrote: »

I'll throw in this incendiary thought - under "da Brits" public transport was well funded and managed (within the context of the era), once independence has been achieved no money was spent as Dev was happy to rule over a moribund economy behind high tariff walls. Everything gradually got ran down to the point where scraping whole systems was inevitable and the bumpy road given free reign, throw in planning that was based on low grade geographic spread rather than quality high density living and a coherent public transport system Dublin was doomed.

I presume that it was business as usual in the North when transportation was being screwed into the ground down here?

LivelineDipso

ejmaztec wrote: »

I presume that it was business as usual in the North when transportation was being screwed into the ground down here?

The Ulster Transport Authority were MUCH MUCH worse than CIE. They got so fanatical about ripping up railways they shut down the Belfast and County Down which would be like CIE shutting down the DART. They then closed the main route to Derry via large towns such as Omagh, Enniskillen, Dungannon and so on. That was the last straw and even the Stormmount Government had enough and stopped them.

mike65

ejmaztec wrote: »

I presume that it was business as usual in the North when transportation was being screwed into the ground down here?

I think they probably did what so many cities did with mass transit - phased it out for cars and buses, but this discussion is about Dublin, which arguably had high enough population density in the 30s/40s/50s to maintain trams and even trains if they were not allowed to get run down (and the city not been allowed to spread like a bucket of spilt muck).

ejmaztec

mike65 wrote: »

I think they probably did what so many cities did with mass transit - phased it out for cars and buses, but this discussion is about Dublin, which arguably had high enough population density in the 30s/40s/50s to maintain trams and even trains if they were not allowed to get run down (and the city not been allowed to spread like a bucket of spilt muck).

It seems to me that Irish politicians have had a long history of not being able to run a piss-up in a brewery.

LivelineDipso

humbert wrote: »

I think people know the most of that, what's to discuss?

The average Dubliner has no idea of this.

My grandfather was still angry about what CIE did to transport in Dublin even in the 1980's. He met my grandmother who lived in Dundalk and they dated because she could get the Great Northern Train back up to Dundalk after a night out in Dublin which left Connolly after mindnight. This train was packed every night with people from Drogheda and so on going to the cienema and teathre in Dublin.

When CIE took over the service in 1960 the CIE unions refused to honour the shifts worked by the Great Norther Crews and Connolly was a ghost station after 7PM.

CIE have a shocking reputation for waging war on public transport in this country and the unions are the biggest culprit.

mikemac1

LivelineDipso wrote: »

When CIE took over the service in 1960 the CIE unions refused to honour the shifts worked by the Great Norther Crews and Connolly was a ghost station after 7PM.

CIE have a shocking reputation for waging war on public transport in this country and the unions are the biggest culprit.

First you blame management and then finish by blaming the unions

Which is it? Or maybe both?

LivelineDipso

mikemac1 wrote: »

First you blame management and then finish by blaming the unions

Which is it? Or maybe both?

BOTH!

Two heads of the same snake when it comes to the public sector.

previous user

Not meaning to de-rail this thread - ahem,
but this is an interesting development related to the tramline in Howth.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/howth-tram-is-on-course-to-be-running-again-3168523.html

Guy:Incognito

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

Dublin's image of a wee backward catholic town really only came about from the 1920's on. Before that was just like many cities in Europe.

When the British left?


EDIT. Dammit Mike.

OurLadyofKnock

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder.....

Would it be possible to get one of them old trams onto the modern LUAS system?

I think it would if you got old bogies from the Blackpool tram lines & put them on the old ones in Howth museum.

Anyone think it's a runner?

The track guage is different. The old trams were built to Irish guage 5'3" - Luas is built to international guage 4'8"

Which was the correct decision as Luas can order trams and track off the shelf - Irish Rail everything has to be custom built.

Run_to_da_hills

There use to be the directors tram left to rot in a field belonging to Harris Porter in Dalkey out my direction,

As kids we could see it from the road. It got vandalised and burnt in 1984 and is currently in a sad state in the transport museum in Howth. It had Waterford chandeliers and cut glass windows, wrought iron work. One of its kind in the world used only by state dignitaries.

Photo taken by a family member before it was destroyed

http://i33.tinypic.com/30cno6c.

After

http://i37.tinypic.com/2m8465x.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/28jblz9.jpg

Heres more of it after it was destroyed in Dalkey.

http://i33.tinypic.com/2lcu4hv.png

http://i38.tinypic.com/zmgpix.png

mikemac1

There was a guy on Liveline, a serial entrepreneur

Smart as a whip, had a go at renting small paddle boats in Grand Canal Dock which the local skangers destroyed on him but it was still a good idea.


Anyway he has access somehow to an old tram and plans to convert it to a coffee shop on James' Luas stop

Might see some progress soon

oppenheimer1

mikemac1 wrote: »

There was a guy on Liveline, a serial entrepreneur

Smart as a whip, had a go at renting small paddle boats in Grand Canal Dock which the local skangers destroyed on him but it was still a good idea.


Anyway he has access somehow to an old tram and plans to convert it to a coffee shop on James' Luas stop

Might see some progress soon

Does he only try and locate his businesses in areas full of skangers?

mikemac1

Yes, if that tram is left around overnight it may meet a fiery end. Especially coming up to Halloween.

Not sure where he plans to store it

I still love the idea, very classy :cool:

oppenheimer1

mike65 wrote: »

I'll throw in this incendiary thought - under "da Brits" public transport was well funded and managed (within the context of the era), once independence has been achieved no money was spent as Dev was happy to rule over a moribund economy behind high tariff walls. Everything gradually got ran down to the point where scraping whole systems was inevitable and the bumpy road given free reign, throw in planning that was based on low grade geographic spread rather than quality high density living and a coherent public transport system Dublin was doomed.

You've never heard of the Beeching Axe then? It wasn't only in Ireland that railways were closed. They closed because they were in need of upgrading and passenger numbers were falling. Trams had a serious image problem back then. Bus was cheaper to provide and more flexible.

Pilotdude5

The old OSI maps are great for looking at tram lines and old rail network.

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,715876,734544,7,9

charlemont

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,716037,734273,7,9

Fenian Army

snubbleste wrote: »

Sure Dublin was the second city in the globe spanning Empire at the time. It was only fitting that it had such a tram system. Now it's just a backwater in a quasi euro-federal state.

You say that as if being part of a brutal empire like that was a good thing