Dublin Used to Have the Best Mass Transit System in the World

SEPT 23 1989

I blame Ryan Tubirty and his family

Stained Class

Great thread, very intreresting.

Lets hope it doesn't descend into a petty politics & Brit bashing, eh?.:rolleyes:

3ndahalfof6

Yes very good thread, I agree SC.

dirtyden

It is an interesting thread alright.

Would I be correct in saying there were tram systems in a lot of UK cities at the turn of the century? They seem to have disappeared to an extent everywhere if there was. I guess the car must be one of the main reasons? They work quite well on the continent when concentrated around city centres.

end of the road

imagine that, dublin had a better transport system in 1922 then it has now, so much for (bus transport being the future)

Sir Pompous Righteousness

Goes to show, we should have stayed in the United Kingdom. Too late to go back now. Damn gombeens ruining our fun.

Rock of Gibraltar

To be fair while it was an atrocious decision to get rid of the trams it wasn't a uniquely Dublin phenomenon. They were torn up all over the place, almost every major modern city in the world had trams 60 years ago, I can only think of a handful of non communist block cities that retained them; Brussels, Vienna, Amsterdam, San Francisco, there's a few Italian cities.

I'd really like to know how much of the old track in Dublin remains under all the tarmac, you can still see some it exposed in Dalkey and on Stable Lane off North Brunswick Street. Not that it's any use or anything.

edit: Here's Stable Lane: http://goo.gl/maps/fYwXH
I really like the brick road surface from back in the day that you can see there.

Rock of Gibraltar

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

To be fair while it was an atrocious decision to get rid of the trams it wasn't a uniquely Dublin phenomenon. They were torn up all over the place, almost every major modern city in the world had trams 60 years ago, I can only think of a handful of non communist block cities that retained them; Brussels, Vienna, Amsterdam, San Francisco, there's a few Italian cities.

I'd really like to know how much of the old track in Dublin remains under all the tarmac, you can still see some it exposed in Dalkey and on Stable Lane off North Brunswick Street. Not that it's any use or anything.

edit: Here's Stable Lane: http://goo.gl/maps/fYwXH
I really like the brick road surface from back in the day that you can see there.

I think I remember seeing some in Sutton recently when they were resurfacing beside the station.

Anyway, would it be that hard to change the bogies (the wheel bits) on the irish trams to standard? maybe get some from Blackpool's stock?

Hibbeler

Was there ever any plans for an underground rapid transit system for Dublin (I mean before the recent metro north plans), as I reckon that even back then a metro would have been more effective at moving people across the city, than a system of trams?

gobnaitolunacy

Hibbeler wrote: »

Was there ever any plans for an underground rapid transit system for Dublin (I mean before the recent metro north plans), as I reckon that even back then a metro would have been more effective at moving people across the city, than a system of trams?

From memory I think there was, just a couple of test holes were dug and that was it.

gobnaitolunacy

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder.....

Would it be possible to get one of them old trams onto the modern LUAS system?

I think it would if you got old bogies from the Blackpool tram lines & put them on the old ones in Howth museum.

Anyone think it's a runner?

May be clearance issues, voltage(?) and Luas might not like the idea of someone else running on their lines.

Nice idea, but 'Health & Safety' would be the biggest spoil sport as per usual.

Rock of Gibraltar

Hibbeler wrote: »

Was there ever any plans for an underground rapid transit system for Dublin (I mean before the recent metro north plans), as I reckon that even back then a metro would have been more effective at moving people across the city, than a system of trams?

Yeah there was a plan for Dublin City which was made pre war of independence made by Patrick Abercrombie and published in the 20's simply called the Abercrombie Plan (he made a similar plan for London in the 40's).

Here's what Dublin would have looked like if the War of Independence and Civil War hadn't gotten in the way.
It's just the street plan but there was an underground railway planned too but I can't find a map for it.
He planned an underground line from Harcourt Street Station to Broadstone Station and from Lansdowne Road north to the river and then west to Heuston. Interchanging at the Four Courts.

3ndahalfof6

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

Yeah there was a plan for Dublin City which was made pre war of independence made by Patrick Abercrombie and published in the 20's simply called the Abercrombie Plan (he made a similar plan for London in the 40's).

Here's what Dublin would have looked like if the War of Independence and Civil War hadn't gotten in the way.
It's just the street plan but there was an underground railway planned too but I can't find a map for it.
He planned an underground line from Harcourt Street Station to Broadstone Station and from Lansdowne Road north to the river and then west to Heuston. Interchanging at the Four Courts.

Impressive.

Capt'n Midnight

mike65 wrote: »

I'll throw in this incendiary thought - under "da Brits" public transport was well funded and managed (within the context of the era), once independence has been achieved no money was spent as Dev was happy to rule over a moribund economy behind high tariff walls. Everything gradually got ran down to the point where scraping whole systems was inevitable and the bumpy road given free reign, throw in planning that was based on low grade geographic spread rather than quality high density living and a coherent public transport system Dublin was doomed.

Well there was the war of independence and the civil war. Lots of railway infrastructure and rolling stock destroyed.

Didn't the British have a plan to put an underground in Dublin and didn't Micheal Collins say that if he'd known about it he would have delayed the civil war till they finished it ?

We used to have boat trains that met the boat at both ends of the journey


Oh and don't forget we even had a monorail.

gobnaitolunacy

Monorails have had very mixed fortunes, the Sydney one is being dismantled in 2 years time.

The Listowel one was intended in modern speak to be a working 'demo' for interested parties to come and view and perhaps adopt it. In this it was somewhat of a failure, being in a remote-ish part of Kerry.

bijapos

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

To be fair while it was an atrocious decision to get rid of the trams it wasn't a uniquely Dublin phenomenon. They were torn up all over the place, almost every major modern city in the world had trams 60 years ago, I can only think of a handful of non communist block cities that retained them; Brussels, Vienna, Amsterdam, San Francisco, there's a few Italian cities.

Pretty much every medium to large city in Germany has them, two notable exceptions being Hamburg and Berlin, apart from that they are everywhere, and in some places they keep opening new ones. Switzerland has a lot as does Austria, though both of these complement their tram systems with trolley buses.

In major German cities trams have only been shut down when they have been replaced with underground train lines, the fact that they have much higher densities in their city centres helps but it's planning that helps this too. Advance planning that is, the ability to look beyond the next election.

If Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick etc are to get decent cheap public transport they should be looking at BRT's and running them on gas or methane from waste or electricity. Cheaper to set up than a Luas and more efficient and faster.

Fratton Fred

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

The Listowel one was intended in modern speak to be a working 'demo' for interested parties to come and view and perhaps adopt it. In this it was somewhat of a failure, being in a remote-ish part of Kerry.

I believe the Kingstown to Dalkey atmospheric railway was the same, more of a working prototype than an actual full blown working train.

Capt'n Midnight

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I believe the Kingstown to Dalkey atmospheric railway was the same, more of a working prototype than an actual full blown working train.

I blame the rats that ate the leather seals.

KTRIC

Do you think if we're nice to the Brits and send them some flowers and chocolates they'll take us back ??

Kat1170

KTRIC wrote: »

Do you think if we're nice to the Brits and send them some flowers and chocolates they'll take us back ??

There are plenty of boats and planes every day any time you want to head on over. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. :rolleyes:

bijapos

KTRIC wrote: »

Do you think if we're nice to the Brits and send them some flowers and chocolates they'll take us back ??

To be fair the UK have been appallingly short sighted in terms of public transport over the year. They ripped up all their tram lines, the one in Manchester only opened a few years ago. They never invested properly in their own rail infrastructure and choose to let it rot when similar countries like France, Germany and Italy invested heavily in theirs.

All countries have shut down lines with the huge rise of the motor car over the years but nobody really did it with the vengeance and short sightedness of the UK and Ireland.

syklops

This is one of the most depressing threads I have read in a long time.

By the way i got to work this morning by a tram. It was clean and on time. Knowing we had that at home in times past and cant figure out how to get it back is just... depressing.

OurLadyofKnock

Here is the book I mentioned in the OP. It is a fantastic read. Shame it is OOP.


http://www.secondhand-books.co.uk/Trams/00002376.jpg

Fr_Dougal

Thought this thread was about mass...I am disappoint...:(

Pottler

I used to be able to do 60 press-ups. I'm crap at them now. Things change. Whatchergonnado?

OurLadyofKnock

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

Here is the book I mentioned in the OP. It is a fantastic read. Shame it is OOP.


http://www.secondhand-books.co.uk/Trams/00002376.jpg

Out of print? I saw a few copies of it in Eason's O'Connell st last week. Better make my way in to get one so!

LivelineDipso

I got a copy too. It is excellent.

LeinsterDub

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_tramways#Reasons_for_decline

Just to add a little more than "typical irish short sightedness"

Overthrow

bijapos wrote: »

Pretty much every medium to large city in Germany has them, two notable exceptions being Hamburg and Berlin, apart from that they are everywhere, and in some places they keep opening new ones. Switzerland has a lot as does Austria, though both of these complement their tram systems with trolley buses.

In major German cities trams have only been shut down when they have been replaced with underground train lines, the fact that they have much higher densities in their city centres helps but it's planning that helps this too. Advance planning that is, the ability to look beyond the next election.

If Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick etc are to get decent cheap public transport they should be looking at BRT's and running them on gas or methane from waste or electricity. Cheaper to set up than a Luas and more efficient and faster.

Berlin still has a large network of trams running around the clock. The trams and the buses run 24/7 as opposed to the ubahn and sbahn only running 24hours on the weekend.

Overthrow

Here's a good documentary on the demise of the public transportation (mainly trams) system in American cities, thanks to the muscling in of the auto industry. America has suffered much more from this than Ireland given the size of their cities and their almost complete dependency now on the car;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob2bYUtxlxs

phoenix999

'And best mass transit in the world'? I think that's a bit of a stretch. Cities like Berlin had an underground system as early as 1902. We still don't have that in 2012. In fact one of a tiny minority of countries in the world not to have underground rail. Mass transit involves a lot more than a few electric trams.

Leftist

LeinsterDub wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_tramways#Reasons_for_decline

Just to add a little more than "typical irish short sightedness"

that doesn't do anything to suggest it's anything other than short sightedness.

Bus moves out to hinterland quicker than tram.
and this didn't happen in other european cities? where does the luas go now?

Buses jumped ahead of trams to get customers.
Regulate the traffic

I mean this is blatant example of poor management.

LivelineDipso

LeinsterDub wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_tramways#Reasons_for_decline

Just to add a little more than "typical irish short sightedness"

In the book it showed that CIE upgraded the system with new trams and passenger numbers stablised for about a decade. That wiki article is not the full story. There was even a plan to introduced single decker faster trams like Luas.

The main reason they were removed was to allow more car parking spaces on O'Connell Street and College Green.

and it was one of the best system in the world before the 1920s.

yosemite_sam

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

It was called the Dublin United Tramway Company. The city was criss-crossed in state of the art electric trams which were powered by the most modern power station of its time out in Pidgeon House.

I am reading a book called Through Streets Broad and Narrow which is now sadly out of print. The trams offered late night services, zonal fare structure with integrated ticketing - something we still do not properly have in 2012. One of the reasons for their demise was they could not afford to convert their ticketing machines to bi-lingual as they used a symbol coded system. They also ran late night freight trains with electric locos which hauled everything from coal to rubbish.

check out the system in 1922. You could travel from Dalkey to Howth Head and from Ballymun Road to Lucan all by tram.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/Dublin_1922-23_Map_Suburbs_MatureTrams_wFaresTimes_Trains_EarlyBus_Canals_pub.png/795px-Dublin_1922-23_Map_Suburbs_MatureTrams_wFaresTimes_Trains_EarlyBus_Canals_pub.png

Apparently the system was the pride of Dublin until something called Córas Iompair Éireann and replaced it with crap buses which ran when the unions felt like it.

I'd imagine the English would have built it, they had them in all their major Cities but also tore them out for buses. Progress?

Run_to_da_hills

yosemite_sam wrote: »

I'd imagine the English would have built it, they had them in all their major Cities but also tore them out for buses. Progress?

How many cities have reverted back to trams Dublin included?

Melbourne kept its old tram system and its thriving.

yosemite_sam

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

How many cities have reverted back to trams Dublin included?

Melbourne kept its old tram system and its thriving.

I am with you, the trams were a great system

Bradidup

yosemite_sam wrote: »

I'd imagine the English would have built it, they had them in all their major Cities but also tore them out for buses. Progress?

No, buses are awkward, dirty, smelly, bumpy, slow, polluting and full of diesel.

msg11

What an interesting thread for AH and for once, the number of stupid posts is at a minimum.

I knew about the old trams , didn't know how extensive the system was. I wonder if the Luas will ever get too the same saturation?

OurLadyofKnock

msg11 wrote: »

What an interesting thread for AH and for once, the number of stupid posts is at a minimum.

I knew about the old trams , didn't know how extensive the system was. I wonder if the Luas will ever get too the same saturation?

I think that is the general plan: the line from Stephens Green to Broombridge is already more or less started and the double tracks were incorported into the new Samuel Beckett Bridge for the an eventual Luas line over that.

The interesting thing is that the current Luas system would of been the natural extentions to the 1948 Dublin tram system had it been kept open.

So we expanded the old system which was declared obsolete. Interesting irony.

LeinsterDub

LivelineDipso wrote: »

In the book it showed that CIE upgraded the system with new trams and passenger numbers stablised for about a decade. That wiki article is not the full story. There was even a plan to introduced single decker faster trams like Luas.

The main reason they were removed was to allow more car parking spaces on O'Connell Street and College Green.

and it was one of the best system in the world before the 1920s.

You could add that to the wiki article

LeinsterDub

Lefnst wrote: »

that doesn't do anything to suggest it's anything other than short sightedness.

Bus moves out to hinterland quicker than tram.
and this didn't happen in other european cities? where does the luas go now?

Buses jumped ahead of trams to get customers.
Regulate the traffic

I mean this is blatant example of poor management.

I think the main issue was trams where considered old technology. And while it might not disprove shortsightedness which wasn't my intention atleast its not just knee jerk typical irish.. based on nothing

Il Trap

Sorry to take the thread slightly off course, but it reminded me of something I've always wondered.

The emergency exits that you see all along the port tunnel - does anyone know where exactly they go? Its a pretty long tunnel so I'm assuming there are exit points to the surface throughout the route?

donvito99

Il Trap wrote: »

Sorry to take the thread slightly off course, but it reminded me of something I've always wondered.

The emergency exits that you see all along the port tunnel - does anyone know where exactly they go? Its a pretty long tunnel so I'm assuming there are exit points to the surface throughout the route?

Some sort of central access/service tunnel I should think.

CB19Kevo

Underground is the way all new urban rail systems should be done.
The current LUAS might be better than bus services but falls down on:
1) Accidents with vehicles/bikes/pedestrians
2) Takes up ground level space
3) The cable's can cause issues and are unsightly.

Underground may cost a lot more to build but one need only look at other major urban areas internationally to see which works best.

Run_to_da_hills

CB19Kevo wrote: »

Underground is the way all new urban rail systems should be done.
The current LUAS might be better than bus services but falls down on:
1) Accidents with vehicles/bikes/pedestrians
2) Takes up ground level space
3) The cable's can cause issues and are unsightly.

Underground may cost a lot more to build but one need only look at other major urban areas internationally to see which works best.

Have an underground railway system in Dublin and in no time it would turn itself into one big public toilet. :eek: