Liverpool vs Manchester United 23rd September 2012 K/O 1.30 PM (MOD NOTE #1, #254)

What was the chant about the referee ? Involving cancer ? Really ?

Leiva

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Meh, the thing is you don't even need to defend him on tactics.

Ferguson is the GOAT squad builder and belief instiller. He builds exceptional squads time after time after time, and under Ferguson Utd teams have always believed at all times that they can win.

Utd fans have whined constantly the last few years about central midfield - but while that is a relative weakness, at the same time he has put together peerless strength and depth in terms of wing and forward options, fullbacks and center halves.

He's not as great a tactician as the likes of Mourinho and you can point to games over the years where he was out thought on a one off basis by an opponent, but it doesn't matter. He doesn't have to be!

That is the Fergie Factor explained right there in a couple of paragraphs.

The same factor that frustrates the bejasus out of us rival fans.

UTD (under Fergie) have the psychological fear edge over their opponents which has been earned and built up over the years of Fergise reign, but imo Fergie knows he does not have that edge when he plays Liverpool at home hence his bizarre team selections over the seasons.
If you play against UTD without that fear factor you more than likely get a result as demonstrated by Basel and Bilbao last season.

But when it come to the PL most teams are already down in the percentages even before kick off due to the psychological edge Fergies teams bring to a game ... an edge which I think will be truly missed when he eventually retires, not a dig just an observation.

niallo27

rarnes1 wrote: »

What was the chant about the referee ? Involving cancer ? Really ?

I'd say he is talking about comments on twitter, there were no chants like that at the game.

GoodisonPark

Mark Halsey did'nt have the best of games but for some Liverpool fans to go on Twitter last night wishing him to get cancer again was over the top. Halsey , his wife , and his daughter all had cancer and Halsey himself was very involved in fundraising for cancer awareness.

niallo27

niallo27 wrote: »

rarnes1 wrote: »

What was the chant about the referee ? Involving cancer ? Really ?

I'd say he is talking about comments on twitter, there were no chants like that at the game.

Ah right ,was thinking that.

Twitter is full of idiots tbf

amiable

GoodisonPark wrote: »

Mark Halsey did'nt have the best of games but for some Liverpool fans to go on Twitter last night wishing him to get cancer again was over the top. Halsey , his wife , and his daughter all had cancer and Halsey himself was very involved in fundraising for cancer awareness.

To be fair anyone who abused him like that on twitter is an absolute idiot and and has no place in society and probably nothing to offer to society.

Halsey had a bad game yesterday IMHO. Nothing more

Aidric

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

He's not as great a tactician as the likes of Mourinho

Mourinho is no 'great tactician'. This article summarises it well.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/feature/_/id/1163899/mourinho-playing-a-dangerous-game?cc=5739

Jax Teller

Just on the Shelvey/Evans tackle . Does anyone remember a Evans & Stuart Holden tackle 2 years ago ?

Similar enough challenge but Evans was sent off mainly because Holden was hurt .

Just reminded me of that yesterday ill try post the video of the tackle If I can find it .

Btw I think Shelvey & Evans should have probably received the same punishment .

amiable

Jax Teller wrote: »

Just on the Shelvey/Evans tackle . Does anyone remember a Evans & Stuart Holden tackle 2 years ago ?

Similar enough challenge but Evans was sent off mainly because Holden was hurt .

Just reminded me of that yesterday ill try post the video of the tackle If I can find it .

Btw I think Shelvey & Evans should have probably received the same punishment .

I think Holden still hasn't fully recovered

noodler

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

FFS, have you ever played soccer, watch Evans play the ball first - he side foots it away, hes not trying to do Shelvey. Hes not even tackling really. Shelveys was a scissors tackle, with excessive force (thats the key) - straight red. The ref pretty much sees this angle also.

Laws of the game - note nothing about 2 footed tackle
12.3 CARELESS, RECKLESS, INVOLVING EXCESSIVE FORCE
“Careless” indicates that the player has not exercised due caution in
making his play.
“Reckless” means that the player has made unnatural movements
designed to intimidate an opponent or to gain unfair advantage
“Involving excessive force” means that the player has far exceeded the use
of force necessary to make a fair play for the ball and has placed his
opponent in considerable danger of bodily harm.

I would argue Evans was Reckless and Shelvey Involving excessive force.

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

Are you trying to argue both should have been sent off or none?

Evans wasn't with excessive force, yes it was reckless but he was never going to "do" Shelvey? Can you not see the difference?

Are you high?

The challenges were virtually identical.

Both left their feet and lost control.

Therefore both should be reds.

FutureGuy

Evans left the ground, studs showing, two footed. Had Shelvey been literally a fraction of a second early with that tackle, he would have had his leg broken.

Leiva

FutureGuy wrote: »

Evans left the ground, studs showing, two footed. Had Shelvey been literally a fraction of a second early with that tackle, he would have had his leg broken.

Both players had to make that tackle and are trained to do so. Not to injure the opponent but to protect yourself.

Both should have gotten a yellow and a stern warning or two reds and move on.

JimsAlterEgo

noodler wrote: »

Are you high?

The challenges were virtually identical.

Both left their feet and lost control.

Therefore both should be reds.

if you cant see whats different I suggest you take up another sport

ohyesthefinest

T

Leiva

ohyesthefinest wrote: »

T

2 sugars thanks !

ohyesthefinest

Most of the people who tweeted about Halsey and cancer have deleted their tweets. In fact a lot of them have deleted their accounts. Disgraceful comments.

Jax Teller

amiable wrote: »

I think Holden still hasn't fully recovered

Yeah i know that it's just unfortunate though wasn't any malice intended .


Only video i can find of it is this

Both could have went for that imo .

It's probably off topic so better leave it at that .

SlickRic

lads, the sending off is quite simple. get a grip.

from Halsey's angle, it looked like Shelvey was the aggressor.

and seen as Evans was hurt, and Shelvey wasn't, that information lent to Halsey's decision that Shelvey deserved to go.

both tackles were basically the same. it's just Evans was a fraction of a second earlier, and got hurt. that is all.

in reality, both men should've been sent off, or both booked.

you win some, you lose some with these decisions.

what's really a bit sad, is that neither person was setting out to hurt anyone. there was only intent for the ball. the fact that a ref doesn't seem allowed to use common sense in that situation is very very sad for the game. he knew it was just a hard tackle.

also, the fans' stuff.

anyone defending either side in any way on any gesturing or chanting really needs their head checked. you're defending a minority in your fanbase who don't actually represent you at all.

LuckyLloyd

Aidric wrote: »

Mourinho is no 'great tactician'. This article summarises it well.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/feature/_/id/1163899/mourinho-playing-a-dangerous-game?cc=5739

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Leiva

exact moment the ball hit the net ...

callaway92

Leiva wrote: »

exact moment the ball hit the net ...

Jonjo Shelvey got sent off on 38:58
Gerrard scores on 45:51
Rafael equalises on 51:45
RVP scores the penalty on 80:16

ALL ADD UP TO 96!

_blank_

callaway92 wrote: »

Jonjo Shelvey got sent off on 38:58
Gerrard scores on 45:51
Rafael equalises on 51:45
RVP scores the penalty on 80:16

ALL ADD UP TO 96!

Only thing is, some of those times stated there are not correct at all.

It's a lovely story, but unfortunately, it's false.

Will I Amnt

kayevajo wrote: »

SIR Alex laughing at right said fred as he goes down the tunnel is magic!

Right Said Fred

killwill

niallo27 wrote: »

Yes but do you think he would have been laughing if he thought shelvey had gone to injure one of his players, he is laughing because he can't believe his luck with getting liverpool down to 10.

That had nothing to do with SAF. He didn't tell either Shelvey or Evans to go in so commited to a challenge. He is smiling as Shelvey looks silly, nothing else IMO.
And I agree with Leiva, as I already stated, it was purely the occassion getting the better of Shelvey, no malice just raw adrenalin.
Time for both sets of fans to move on.

counterlock

Leiva wrote: »

FutureGuy wrote: »

Evans left the ground, studs showing, two footed. Had Shelvey been literally a fraction of a second early with that tackle, he would have had his leg broken.

Both players had to make that tackle and are trained to do so. Not to injure the opponent but to protect yourself.

Both should have gotten a yellow and a stern warning or two reds and move on.

I rarely agree with you but I'm 100% on this. In a game of this size, neither player should pull out of tackles like that. Both players guilty imho and it had been a very clean game until then too

Mr Alan

SlickRic wrote: »

from Halsey's angle, it looked like Shelvey was the aggressor.

Really? Doesn't appear so here to be honest. If anything Evans looks worse from the refs angle.



Also, Gerrard said after the game that he had the same angle as the ref & it was obvious to him straight away that it was never a red card. It was just a really really poor decision by the ref to be honest.

amiable

Mr Alan wrote: »

Really? Doesn't appear so here to be honest. If anything Evans looks worse from the refs angle.



Also, Gerrard said after the game that he had the same angle as the ref & it was obvious to him straight away that it was never a red card. It was just a really really poor decision by the ref to be honest.

No excuses for the referee there. Terrible decision by him as he had a perfect view of the incident.

_blank_

Mr Alan wrote: »

Really? Doesn't appear so here to be honest. If anything Evans looks worse from the refs angle.

.

Single freeze frame photo, or gif, I can't see here in work. If it's a single frame, then you are lol.

Mr Alan wrote: »

Also, Gerrard said after the game that he had the same angle as the ref & it was obvious to him straight away that it was never a red card. It was just a really really poor decision by the ref to be honest.

Stevie G is hardly a neutral, independent observer, now is he?

Mr Alan

Des wrote: »

Single freeze frame photo, or gif, I can't see here in work. If it's a single frame, then you are lol.

Gif of full incident showing the ref had a perfect view & even "from his angle" it's clear as day he made an awful call.

SlickRic

the ref actually did have a great angle of the incident.

fair enough.

both off, or a yellow card for both is still what i believe should have happened.

what did Shelvey was his lack of reaction, and the fact he got Evans' leg with the studs of his right boot.

LuckyLloyd

Shelvey got done for honestly going for the ball, and then honestly getting straight up afterwards. Shame on him! :rolleyes:

_blank_

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Shelvey got done for honestly going for the ball, and then honestly getting straight up afterwards. Shame on him! :rolleyes:

his studs ended up on Evans' leg, as the various pictures show.

He may have "honestly" went for the ball, but he also did it recklessly, and without concern for the opposition player.

Evans may have also have done so, but it doesn't take away from the fact that Fred deserved to walk.

The smirk of the Manchester mnager as Fred walked off ranting his conspiracy theory made it all the more heartwarming.

amiable

Des wrote: »

his studs ended up on Evans' leg, as the various pictures show.

He may have "honestly" went for the ball, but he also did it recklessly, and without concern for the opposition player.

Evans may have also have done so, but it doesn't take away from the fact that Fred deserved to walk.

The smirk of the Manchester mnager as Fred walked off ranting his conspiracy theory made it all the more heartwarming.

Why did his studs end up on Evans' leg?

SlickRic

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Shelvey got done for honestly going for the ball, and then honestly getting straight up afterwards. Shame on him! :rolleyes:

as i've said numerous times, if Shelvey walked, i believe Evans should've walked.

Felexicon

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Shelvey got done for honestly going for the ball, and then honestly getting straight up afterwards. Shame on him! :rolleyes:

That's bollox tbf. He lunges in wildly, misses the ball and catches Evans. I'm sure he was honestly going for the ball but the fact is he didn't get it.

Also the gif above is in slow motion so doesn't really show what view the referee is making his decision on.

And saying that it wasn't a red because Gerrard came out and said so?
Lol.

Caveman1

From looking at that GIF, I dont know how the ref came to the conclusion of a red card for Shelvey, the only reason his other leg came into the tackle was because of the impact from Evans, as a neutral I would say thats a red card for Evans all day long.

Melion

In that gif, it doesnt even look like Shelvey touches Evans

amiable

Felexicon wrote: »

That's bollox tbf. He lunges in wildly, misses the ball and catches Evans. I'm sure he was honestly going for the ball but the fact is he didn't get it.

Also the gif above is in slow motion so doesn't really show what view the referee is making his decision on.

And saying that it wasn't a red because Gerrard came out and said so?
Lol.

I would suggest an appointment for Specsavers for you if you can't see that Shelvey didn't miss the ball

Mr Alan

SlickRic wrote: »

as i've said numerous times, if Shelvey walked, i believe Evans should've walked.

So you agree that the ref made a total bollox of it?

Liam O

I've been a bit on the fence for the sending off since yesterday, saying Shelvey deserved to go but unsure what to make of Evans. Looking at it now in slow mo, Evans brings his second foot in to play the ball, I could be wrong but i think he's left footed and I think he starts tackling with his left but sees he can get the ball with his right, plays it. As he does Shelvey comes over the top and into his ankle in what can only be called a red card tackle.

amiable

Liam O wrote: »

I've been a bit on the fence for the sending off since yesterday, saying Shelvey deserved to go but unsure what to make of Evans. Looking at it now in slow mo, Evans brings his second foot in to play the ball, I could be wrong but i think he's left footed and I think he starts tackling with his left but sees he can get the ball with his right, plays it. As he does Shelvey comes over the top and into his ankle in what can only be called a red card tackle.

Is that the best you could come up with?

Chucky the tree

Liam O wrote: »

I've been a bit on the fence for the sending off since yesterday, saying Shelvey deserved to go but unsure what to make of Evans. Looking at it now in slow mo, Evans brings his second foot in to play the ball, I could be wrong but i think he's left footed and I think he starts tackling with his left but sees he can get the ball with his right, plays it. As he does Shelvey comes over the top and into his ankle in what can only be called a red card tackle.

So studs two feet off the ground isn't a red card?

Felexicon

amiable wrote: »

I would suggest an appointment for Specsavers for you if you can't see that Shelvey didn't miss the ball

The ball hits his foot after Evans makes contact and directs it that way.
The only reason that happened is because he came in over the ball.

amiable

Felexicon wrote: »

The ball hits his foot after Evans makes contact and directs it that way.
The only reason that happened is because he came in over the ball.

So now he did make contact with the ball.
Make up your mind.

SlickRic

Mr Alan wrote: »

So you agree that the ref made a total bollox of it?

did i say he got it right?

have i even excused him?

all i said was that i maybe understood how he came to his conclusion, given the information he had, and the few seconds he had to decide.

he, in fact, had a great angle, contrary to what i thought, so the fact Shelvey's studs rake Evans' leg, and Evans got hurt, is what swung it in Halsey's mind. he only sees it once remember.

it shouldn't have resulted in 11 v 10, because both tackles were basically the same. but i can understand why Halsey came to the conclusion he did, wrong as it was.

Felexicon

amiable wrote: »

So now he did make contact with the ball.
Make up your mind.

No the ball hit him as opposed to him winning the ball.

amiable

Felexicon wrote: »

No the ball hit him as opposed to him winning the ball.

I'd go get those eyes checked if I were you

Leiva

Evans got a knock and was obviously very verbal about it which makes me laugh and reminds me of a player I used to play with .
He was a sluggish but skilful midfielder, but my God anytime he go the slightest knock he would give out a intentional yelp which would get us numerous free kicks during games.
When refs heard the yelp along with the split second incident it was usually enough to blow the whistle, and on a number of occasions a card as well.

The ref got it wrong on two accounts for that one tackle. to say otherwise is kinda silly cause I remember a certain UTD and City game last season when Kompany got sent off for a two foot tackle and everyone was calling for his head ..Evans was worse imo.

LuckyLloyd

Let's break this rubbish down shall we?

Felexicon wrote: »

That's bollox tbf. He lunges in wildly, misses the ball and catches Evans. I'm sure he was honestly going for the ball but the fact is he didn't get it.

Evans might have got the ball, but he also lunged in wildly. Shelvey also gets a touch on the ball also. In any case, weren't we told last December that Spearing getting the ball was no excuse when it comes to this stuff?

I think the rules in this regard are awful. That said, if the rules are being applied strictly in this case then whatever punishment Shelvey is to receive should also be applied to Evans.

The ultimate reality is that neither player was doing anything other than honestly going for the ball. Yet one walks and the other doesn't.

Felexicon wrote: »

Also the gif above is in slow motion so doesn't really show what view the referee is making his decision on.

What? The .gif clearly shows the positioning of Halsley relative to the incident, and demonstrates that he was watching the action.

Felexicon wrote: »

And saying that it wasn't a red because Gerrard came out and said so?
Lol.

So one fan mentions something Gerrard said and that becomes a corner stone of everyone's argument? Awesome.

PhlegmyMoses

Can anybody give an example of a time when two players got straight red cards in the same tackle? The ref always punishes the biggest aggressor. No ref would have sent two players off there. I do understand where people are coming from but the expectations here are unrealistic.