Liverpool vs Manchester United 23rd September 2012 K/O 1.30 PM (MOD NOTE #1, #254)

Leiva

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Can anybody give an example of a time when two players got straight red cards in the same tackle? The ref always punishes the biggest aggressor. No ref would have sent two players off there. I do understand where people are coming from but the expectations here are unrealistic.

Not really.

The rules are pretty clear about both feet leaving the ground.
To leave it to the ref to find the "biggest aggressor" to punish is making it very subjective and not a place you want to bring a refs rule book.

PhlegmyMoses

Leiva wrote: »

Evans got a knock and was obviously very verbal about it which makes me laugh and reminds me of a player I used to play with .
He was a sluggish but skilful midfielder, but my God anytime he go the slightest knock he would give out a intentional yelp which would get us numerous free kicks during games.
When refs heard the yelp along with the split second incident it was usually enough to blow the whistle, and on a number of occasions a card as well.

The ref got it wrong on two accounts for that one tackle. to say otherwise is kinda silly cause I remember a certain UTD and City game last season when Kompany got sent off for a two foot tackle and everyone was calling for his head ..Evans was worse imo.

Are you trying to now say that Evans wasn't actually hurt? He gave a yelp to get Shelvey in trouble? Despite clear evidence of studs being raked down his calf into his thigh.

Out of interest, why is Shelvey being given an easy ride here with Liverpool fans. It was a ridiculous tackle to make in a position where losing the ball was hardly the end of the world. Idiocy of the highest order and nary a word spoken about it.

PhlegmyMoses

Leiva wrote: »

Not really.

The rules are pretty clear about both feet leaving the ground.
To leave it to the ref to find the "biggest aggressor" to punish is making it very subjective and not a place you want to bring a refs rule book.

Show me where in the laws it mentions both feet? Again, answer the question, when have two players been sent off for this? I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, but give me some sort of precendent to suggest that this was a realistic thing a ref would do?

noodler

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

if you cant see whats different I suggest you take up another sport

No sorry.
Both were two footed tackles.

Therefore, both should have been reds.

I suggest you start focusing on the fact that just because Evans came off worse doesn't make him the victim.

Leiva

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Show me where in the laws it mentions both feet? Again, answer the question, when have two players been sent off for this? I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, but give me some sort of precendent to suggest that this was a realistic thing a ref would do?

Your right the decision to send both players off is few and far between and none that I can remember, but as I said earlier it should have been a common sense decision of two yellows, or more harsh two reds.
Both players had to make that tackle even if was to just protect themselves.

JimsAlterEgo

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Show me where in the laws it mentions both feet? Again, answer the question, when have two players been sent off for this? I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, but give me some sort of precendent to suggest that this was a realistic thing a ref would do?

too right, it doesn't -the rules say "excessive force". While being reckless I don't think Evans uses excessive force.

PhlegmyMoses

noodler wrote: »

No sorry.
Both were two footed tackles.

Therefore, both should have been reds.

I suggest you start focusing on the fact that just because Evans came off worse doesn't make him the victim.

Actually, while the laws of the game don't take into account two-footed tackles, they do, as far as I know, ask the ref to take into account injury to the player when making a decision.

LuckyLloyd

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Out of interest, why is Shelvey being given an easy ride here with Liverpool fans. It was a ridiculous tackle to make in a position where losing the ball was hardly the end of the world. Idiocy of the highest order and nary a word spoken about it.

Out of interest, why is Evans being given an easy ride here with Utd fans. It was a ridiculous tackle to make in a position where Shelvey getting a nick on it was hardly the end of the world. Idiocy of the highest order and nary a word spoken about it.

JimsAlterEgo

noodler wrote: »

No sorry.
Both were two footed tackles.

Therefore, both should have been reds.

I suggest you start focusing on the fact that just because Evans came off worse doesn't make him the victim.

two footed is irrlevant

_blank_

Leiva wrote: »

The rules are pretty clear about both feet leaving the ground.

You wanna quote some law there buddy, or are you just lashing out lies in an attempt ot defend your player?

There are no rules/laws about two feet, one foot or no feet tackles.

None.

PhlegmyMoses

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Out of interest, why is Evans being given an easy ride here with Utd fans. It was a ridiculous tackle to make in a position where Shelvey getting a nick on it was hardly the end of the world. Idiocy of the highest order and nary a word spoken about it.

Agreed. I believe he was lucky that Shelvey was stupider. I was fuming when he put in that tackle on Holden a few years ago because it was unnecessary. Does that satisfy your impartialty cravings?

killwill

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Agreed. I believe he was lucky that Shelvey was stupider. I was fuming when he put in that tackle on Holden a few years ago because it was unnecessary. Does that satisfy your impartialty cravings?

Phlegmy you are a gas man!!! lol

I don't think Evans was too badly hurt, wasn't he running around a few minutes later?

The ref should have given both players equal punishment imo. Either both red carded or he uses discretion and gives both a yellow.

It was reckless from both players.

Benimar

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Show me where in the laws it mentions both feet? Again, answer the question, when have two players been sent off for this? I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, but give me some sort of precendent to suggest that this was a realistic thing a ref would do?

For a two footed tackle I can't think of an example (although I have recollections of it happening, but can't for the life of me remember the teams involved), but players have been sent off for fighting before (some on the same team!) so referees can, and will, send off more than one player in the same incident if they feel the need.

Halsey didn't feel the need, hence the feeling he made a balls of the decision.

FWIW, the game is too soft, two yellows and a 'cop on, lads' would have been sufficient.

Leiva

Des wrote: »

You wanna quote some law there buddy, or are you just lashing out lies in an attempt ot defend your player?

There are no rules/laws about two feet, one foot or no feet tackles.

None.

lol Des.

your better than that ..lies hey !

_blank_

Leiva wrote: »

lol Des.

your better than that ..lies hey !

So, instead of address the point you have a little dig. Cool I'll ask again so.

Are you still looking up your clear "two footed tackle" rule, are you about to post it, or admit you haven't a clue what the hell you are talkig about?

Leiva

Des wrote: »

So, instead of address the point you have a little dig. Cool I'll ask again so.

Are you still looking up your clear "two footed tackle" rule, are you about to post it, or admit you haven't a clue what the hell you are talkig about?

Des don't be so fickle and stupid . your not saying its not an offence to go around tackling with both feet off the ground now are you ?

And don't get too held up on semantics;certain rules cover many aspects of dangerous play and what Evans done falls under thems there rules.
To say otherwise is kinda silly.

So why would I lie ?

_blank_

Leiva wrote: »

Des don't be so fickle and stupid . your not saying its not an offence to go around tackling with both feet off the ground now are you ?

And don't get too held up on semantics;certain rules cover many aspects of dangerous play and what Evans done falls under thems there rules.
To say otherwise is kinda silly.

So why would I lie ?

You are saying that "rules" are "clear" - where are they? Where is it clearly stated?

Football doesn't even have rules.

DDC1990

In fairness that GIF proves what a terrible decision it was.

Evans has dived in 2 feet up, studs up over the ball.
Shelvey has dived in 1 foot up the other out to the side, studs down but over the ball.

Evans makes contact on the ball, Shelvey makes contact on the ball.

Shelvey is the player to be sent off, apparently because his studs rake down Evans', yet the only reason his leg makes contact with Evans is because Evans makes contact with him first directing his leg over.

I don't think either tackle was particularly over the top. Both were going for the ball at full throttle, but both were a bit reckless. Yellows each would have sufficed, but to send Shelvey off because he didn't stay on the ground is a farcical.

I rate Halsey quite highly as a referee, but he got a lot wrong, from a completely biased point of view it has to be said. He was very far away to make a good call on the United penalty, which was quite theatrical from Valencia. The Suarez penalty incident is a tough one. In real time, which is all the ref has, its too hard to make a call. In slow motion its a penalty, but refs don't have that facility.

Why he'd play advantage at the end I'll never know! Especially with Liverpool down to 9.

Pity the refereeing has taken away from 2 of the most spectacular goals in this rivalries history. Gerrards goal was a thing of beauty, but Rafael's is prob the goal of the season so far. Genius build up and an exceptional finish from a Defender.

A draw would have been a fairer result, I don't think many would argue with that.

Leiva

Des wrote: »

You are saying that "rules" are "clear" - where are they? Where is it clearly stated?

Football doesn't even have rules.

semantics Des semantics !

Ok lets keep it simple ...

Can you tackle on the field of play with two feet/studs showing off the ground ?

YES or NO

_blank_

Leiva wrote: »

semantics Des semantics !

Ok lets keep it simple ...

Can you tackle on the field of play with two feet off the ground ?

YES or NO

That depends on the referee's interpretation of the Law covering that aspect of the game.

each referee will interpret the laws as he sees fit, taking a lot of variables into account.

I would say, generally, that if a player is off the ground he is not in full control of his body, and that could be deemed reckless or dangerous play, or even jumping at an opponent.

Leiva

Des wrote: »

I would say, generally, that if a player is off the ground he is not in full control of his body, and that could be deemed reckless or dangerous play, or even jumping at an opponent.

Thank you.

Now back to how this particular thread of posts began.
Do you think Evans tackle falls under your above paragraph ?

JimsAlterEgo

Leiva wrote: »

semantics Des semantics !

Ok lets keep it simple ...

Can you tackle on the field of play with two feet/studs showing off the ground ?

YES or NO

No, its a foul. However not necessarily a red card, that depends on the "excessive force" bit

_blank_

Leiva wrote: »

Thank you.

Now back to how this particular thread of posts began.
Do you think Evans tackle falls under your above paragraph ?

Possibly yes.

Although why you are pursuing this line of questioning with me I have no idea. Have I somewhere stated that I didn't think Evans should have at least been yellow carded

DDC1990

Des wrote: »

Leiva wrote: »

semantics Des semantics !

Ok lets keep it simple ...

Can you tackle on the field of play with two feet off the ground ?

YES or NO

That depends on the referee's interpretation of the Law covering that aspect of the game.

each referee will interpret the laws as he sees fit, taking a lot of variables into account.

I would say, generally, that if a player is off the ground he is not in full control of his body, and that could be deemed reckless or dangerous play, or even jumping at an opponent.

Do you think the referee made the right call yesterday Des, by sending Shelvey off, and not sending Evans off?

Edit: Not trying to antagonize you, just genuinely interested in how a United fan viewed the challenge.

Will I Amnt

Is Dermot Gallagher on Sky News today does anybody know??
It would be interesting to hear his take on the decisions.

Leiva

Des wrote: »

Possibly yes.

Although why you are pursuing this line of questioning with me I have no idea. Have I somewhere stated that I didn't think Evans should have at least been yellow carded

Des it not aimed at you but you came in midstream when this was being discussed so tough :P

Look Shelvey was not in full control of his body when he tackled, but neither was Evans.
If Evans got a knock and came out worse off then tough! ... as I said earlier it should have been a common sense 2 yellows, or if not both should have walked.

_blank_

DDC1990 wrote: »

Do you think the referee made the right call yesterday Des, by sending Shelvey off, and not sending Evans off?

Loaded question.

The referee saw the incident once, and made a decision based on what he saw once, in real time.

Not lots of times, not in slow motion, so it's unfair to make a judgement of the referee basing it on "evidence" we have.

In real time, from the camera angle I saw, which we all saw, initially, I thought Shelvey was in trouble, and not Evans. That may be because Evans rolled a bit or whatever.

Using the video and slow motion and alternative angles I think perhaps Shelvey was harshly treated if Evans didn't get the same punishment.

But, that's the game.

DDC1990

Des wrote: »

DDC1990 wrote: »

Do you think the referee made the right call yesterday Des, by sending Shelvey off, and not sending Evans off?

Loaded question.

The referee saw the incident once, and made a decision based on what he saw once, in real time.

Not lots of times, not in slow motion, so it's unfair to make a judgement of the referee basing it on "evidence" we have.

In real time, from the camera angle I saw, which we all saw, initially, I thought Shelvey was in trouble, and not Evans. That may be because Evans rolled a bit or whatever.

Using the video and slow motion and alternative angles I think perhaps Shelvey was harshly treated if Evans didn't get the same punishment.

But, that's the game.

No just genuinely wanted your opinion.
I'd agree that my first instinct was that Shelvey had got him, but it had nothing to do with the tackle itself, more the reaction of Evans on the ground, and the fact that Shelvey had just sprinted out of another tackle.

That's just the game, I agree with you. Referees are human, mistakes will be made.

Good to see you are not completely unreasonable like some people, who have seen the incident 20 times in slow motion, and still try to maintain that Evans did nothing wrong, and that Shelvey is a dirty bastard and deserved the red card :-P

As I've said, I don't think either was a red card tackle, I don't think the excessive force was there , but both were reckless and it all could have been sorted with yellows and a calm down.

PhlegmyMoses

killwill wrote: »

Phlegmy you are a gas man!!! lol

Stupider is a perfectly cromulent word.

Felexicon

DDC1990 wrote: »

Shelvey is a dirty bastard and deserved the red card

Agreed

noodler

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Actually, while the laws of the game don't take into account two-footed tackles, they do, as far as I know, ask the ref to take into account injury to the player when making a decision.

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

two footed is irrlevant

Okay then let me get technical:

You have to be in full control of your body, you cannot be when you are off your feet so therefore both were reds.

_blank_

The laws make no mention of injury.

PhlegmyMoses

noodler wrote: »

Okay then let me get technical:

You have to be in full control of your body, you cannot be when you are off your feet so therefore both were reds.

I agree. Where were you when I was making the same point about Kompany last year?

It still doesn't negate my point that the likelihood of a ref sending off two players in a tackle is very low. The expectations are not realistic.

PhlegmyMoses

Des wrote: »

The laws make no mention of injury.

Do they not? Was almost sure I read something regarding the Ramsey tackle that said it should be taken into account. Could easily be wrong, though.

noodler

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I agree. Where were you when I was making the same point about Kompany last year?

It still doesn't negate my point that the likelihood of a ref sending off two players in a tackle is very low. The expectations are not realistic.

I don't see how expectations come into it.

I also don't recall taking any particular stance on the Kompany incident.

I would have been happy for both players to get a yellow yesterday.

_blank_

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Do they not? Was almost sure I read something regarding the Ramsey tackle that said it should be taken into account. Could easily be wrong, though.

I'm 99% sure that they don't, I don't have an up to date copy to hand though.

It MAY be in the supplemental musings that FIFA provide with all copies of the Laws, but there is no mention of injuries in the specific law that covers this kind of thing.

JimsAlterEgo

noodler wrote: »

Okay then let me get technical:

You have to be in full control of your body, you cannot be when you are off your feet so therefore both were reds.

Where is this in the laws of the game, genuinely curious.

_blank_

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

Where is this in the laws of the game, genuinely curious.

It's not. The Laws make no mention of being in control, half control, full control - they don't mention it at all.

They don't mention "in full control", they don't mention "two footed", or anything like that.

noodler

Des wrote: »

It's not. The Laws make no mention of being in control, half control, full control - they don't mention it at all.

They don't mention "in full control", they don't mention "two footed", or anything like that.

In fairness, they are pretty common criteria used by referees when explaining their decisions and by retired referees when judging the performances of current referees.

_blank_

noodler wrote: »

In fairness, they are pretty common criteria used by referees when explaining their decisions and by retired referees when judging the performances of current referees.

"retired referees"?

Like who?

And you stated "Let's get technical" - that would suggest even a cusrory knowledge of the actual laws of the game, at the very least, not some half assed "well some common criteria used by media figures".

wtf?

noodler

Des wrote: »

"retired referees"?

Like who?

And you stated "Let's get technical" - that would suggest even a cusrory knowledge of the actual laws of the game, at the very least, not some half assed "well some common criteria used by media figures".

wtf?

Media figure? I'm sorry, did I say pundits?

I didn't - I said referees.

Ghrame Poll for one.

If you want to go on your little crusade of telling everybody they are wrong then have at it but don't make up quotes for the sake of it.

Ghrame Poll for one.

There is another short bald ex-ref on SSN all the time whose name I can't recall right now.


If referees are actually going as far as to tell us the basis on which they make their decisions then why do you have a problem with invoking their justifications for similar incidents?
wtf-etc

goodolegill

so lets get this right for the sake of neutrality!!

One player who makes contact with the ball first kicking the ball onto the opposing players foot and who in his follow through hits the player with not his studs but with the top part of his foot is the villian.

Or as the ref saw it, player comes in spread eagled into a tackle a mini second too late and with his right foot (studs showing) rakes down the opposing players leg is the victim. And people can honestly can say that they are basically the same challenge & therefore deserve the same punishment.

Its hard to try and convince someone if they can't even trust the eyes that they've being given!!!

Paul Tergat

noodler wrote: »

Media figure? I'm sorry, did I say pundits?

I didn't - I said referees.

Ghrame Poll for one.

If you want to go on your little crusade of telling everybody they are wrong then have at it but don't make up quotes for the sake of it.

Ghrame Poll for one.

There is another short bald ex-ref on SSN all the time whose name I can't recall right now.


If referees are actually going as far as to tell us the basis on which they make their decisions then why do you have a problem with invoking their justifications for similar incidents?
wtf-etc

dermot gallagher?

Melion

I wonder how this thread would have gone if there was no red card

noodler

Paul Tergat wrote: »

dermot gallagher?

That is the one.

opr

Des wrote: »

So, instead of address the point you have a little dig. Cool I'll ask again so.

Are you still looking up your clear "two footed tackle" rule, are you about to post it, or admit you haven't a clue what the hell you are talkig about?

It was reported everywhere that Mike Riley introduced a new rule on the these tackles which was handed down as a directive to all referees. It was a huge news last year and I know you know this but are being deliberately obtuse as it isn't specifically written in law afaik. Why can't we just have some proper discussion without all this rubbish.

As per the rule, all two-footed tackles will be punished with a red card whether or not there is contact or injury to an opponent — and even if the ball is won first.

Opr

jaykay74

.

The Professional Game Match Officials' Board (PGMO) responds to the abuse that referee Mark Halsey, who officiated during Manchester United's 2-1 win over Liverpool on Sunday, has received on Twitter.
"PGMO abhors any abuse of match officials whether that is in stadia or outside of it," said a statement.
"Our main concern is towards Mark and his family and, like with all match officials, there is a backroom team who are there for them.
"This includes a sports psychologist, who has worked extensively with the Select Group including Mark over the past few years. Mark has already benefited from the support of all of his Select Group colleagues and they will continue to back him this week."

Mr.Crinklewood

jaykay74 wrote: »

.

Surprised Sky Sports have not mentioned this.( someone correct me if i`m wrong )

SlickRic

anyone wishing cancer on anyone obviously takes football far too seriously, and/or has nothing else important in life.

and doing it over social media; cowards on top of it.