am i wasting my time???

daludo

hi folks,
im currently looking at going into electronics(im an electrician by trade)and have a good chance of a job in a local firm but obviously need to brush up on a few things.full time education is a non runner(young family:rolleyes:)so whatever i do has to be part time.one of the things i was told to learn was c++ programming.so where do i start??i can use the internet and that is where my it knowledge ends:(maths was never my strong point,so am i wasting my time???it would be a shame to let a potential job go but il bow to yer experience on this one.....thanks

RUCKING FETARD

daludo wrote: »

hi folks,
im currently looking at going into electronics(im an electrician by trade)and have a good chance of a job in a local firm but obviously need to brush up on a few things.full time education is a non runner(young family:rolleyes:)so whatever i do has to be part time.one of the things i was told to learn was c++ programming.so where do i start??i can use the internet and that is where my it knowledge ends:(maths was never my strong point,so am i wasting my time???it would be a shame to let a potential job go but il bow to yer experience on this one.....thanks

Go for it!

Prolly get better responses in the Development Forum, having Einstein level maths isin't a must at all, don't let some clown tell you can't do it cuz of that, it's the same sorta deductions/calculations the whole time, you'll get use to them.

Don't go near C++ or Java or any of them till you have a good grasp of Phyton, it's the easiest and will give you a good starting block.


Is it true that "not everyone can be a programmer"?

It's after taking me 30mins to find that ^^:( couldn't remember what site it was on.:rolleyes:

Editor's Pick: Promoted Reader Comment

• DaveInSpace | Smack-Fu Master, in training jump to post Hmm... When I was working at a computer lab at my last college, I never failed to teach the "unteachable" students from the beginning CS classes. They were supposed to be learning Java, but there were always at least three students who didn't "get it."
  
  My solution was simple; get them as far away from the computer as possible (since programing is not dependent of computers), and have them "program" a group of people by giving one instruction at a time to do things like pace a room, or throw a ball. I'd teach them loops and the like by doing this for about fifteen minutes. It was fun and simple.
  
  After that, they'd be ready to Pseudocode, which meant they were ready to use Python. I'd have them write a working version of their homework in Python, THEN I would have them translate it to Java. Java was just too much as a first step (I will never understand the reasoning of teachers who introduce students to programming on anything other than Python). The problem was always that the class needed to be broken into smaller pieces that could be conquered, which in turn encouraged the once failing students. Victory is addictive.
  
  A few weeks back I bumped into one of the students who I had helped a semester ago, and he had changed his major to Computer Science with an emphases in programing. He was loving it.
  
  I'm pretty sure that, barring a mental disability, anyone can learn anything given enough time and resources.

It's gonna take time to get into...don't know where you'd go to start into it either...

daludo

thanks a mil for that reply,its re-assured me a bit!!!great advice about phyton too.now to find a suitable course!!

BrianDug

Cheek out codeacademy.com

Gurgle

daludo wrote: »

looking at going into electronics...

Whats the job, electronics or software?
C++ / Java / Python won't do anything for you in an electronics job.

syklops

daludo wrote: »

thanks a mil for that reply,its re-assured me a bit!!!great advice about phyton too.now to find a suitable course!!

Just to point out, its called Python, as in the snake, not phyton. Phyton are a company that make device programmers, just in case you start learning the wrong thing. I started learnign Python about 2 years ago and it is amazing. It basically writes its self if you know what you want it to do.

To be honest though, we would need to know more about the job you are going for. Saying you want an electronics job, and then to be told learn C++ is... strange. They are generally 2 different disciplines.

BrianDug

In some Electrical & Electronic Engineering courses you will learn Java,Assembly and C++.

Logical_Bear

BrianDug wrote: »

In some Electrical & Electronic Engineering courses you will learn Java,Assembly and C++.

probably to learn how to programme embedded chips

daludo

Gurgle wrote: »

Whats the job, electronics or software?
C++ / Java / Python won't do anything for you in an electronics job.

the job is in an electronics firm,test engineering side of things,only going with what the md advised me to do:oany advice on where i could start learning basic programming part time??is distance learning a good option for this??

RUCKING FETARD

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daludo wrote: »

the job is in an electronics firm,test engineering side of things,only going with what the md advised me to do:oany advice on where i could start learning basic programming part time??is distance learning a good option for this??

Try asking

here
here

if you get no response here.

Gurgle

Logical_Bear wrote: »

probably to learn how to programme embedded chips

Back in the day (I'm old :rolleyes:) electronics was the discipline to study if you wanted to get into software development.

We did everything from embedded programming in assembler to PC software with Visual C++, and dipped into Dr Logo, Fortran, QBasic, Matlab, Labview, VHDL and more along the way.

Programming is programming, language and platform is just a choice of tool.

syklops

daludo wrote: »

the job is in an electronics firm,test engineering side of things,only going with what the md advised me to do:oany advice on where i could start learning basic programming part time??is distance learning a good option for this??

Tbh, if the MD of the company said learn C++ then you should really learn C++. While python is great for getting into object oriented programming, and as an introduction to the logic of languages, but if you bump into said MD and he says "Hows the C++" coming, and you say, well I went against your advice and consulted some peeps on the interweb and so am learning python, I can see him being a bit miffed, since low level electronic devices dont run Python.

Its a bit like trying to get a job as a office admin and the HR person tells you it would be handy if you knew a bit of French. Only instead of learning French, you learn Spanish as its easier and a better introduction to learning languages.

Cue someone telling me French is actually easier than Spanish, but I think you get my drift.

Heljic

I wouldn't go near C++, it'd take you half a year to program a button to open a web browser link (sarcasm, but true in essence); want my advice?

You're better off freelancing, developing iOS applications with C# (MonoTouch, check out Xamarin for cross-platform development between iOS & Android). The language is really simple to use, efficient and no complicated bull****. Straightforward functions, speedy and overall perfect. The catch, is the monetary investment. If you're packing with some ideas and have decent designing skill, that'd be the way to go. You could do this in your spare time while staying with a full time job elsewhere.

All you need is a Mac, iPhone/iPod Touch (not even, you can emulate on the OS itself), and an Apple Developer account. In regards to the language, it has its similarities between C++ and Java. Picking the lesser of the 'evils', C# would be the best option. You can simply Google tutorials, and there's plenty of documentation floating around the interwebs and on Xamarin.

I'm headed there myself, the market is young, very young. There's a bright future for mobile development my friend, I'm headed there after wasting my time with Android exclusively. Take this on board, think about it. I'll help you out with more information if you're intrigued.

.. did I forget to say that's it's really fun and a great hobby to make the extra buck? Silly me

Gurgle

Heljic wrote: »

I'm headed there myself, the market is young, very young. There's a bright future for mobile development my friend

This is facepalmably naive.
That bright future is halfway through already.

Very very few people will ever get rich doing app development, a small number will make a decent western world middle-class wage and huge numbers in the 2nd/3rd world will grind out apps to spec for $1 an hour.

All you need is a Mac, iPhone/iPod Touch (not even, you can emulate on the OS itself), and an Apple Developer account.

If that's all you need, its all anyone needs.

yoyo

Gurgle wrote: »

This is facepalmably naive.
That bright future is halfway through already.

Very very few people will ever get rich doing app development, a small number will make a decent western world middle-class wage and huge numbers in the 2nd/3rd world will grind out apps to spec for $1 an hour.


If that's all you need, its all anyone needs.

Agreed completely, and with the rate of changes being made to the smartphone world, app development will also be changing quite fast. It is best to get an idea of the core languages, Java, C, C++, PHP (for web design) etc. before learning a very application specific language. Getting knowledge of the core languages should make the transition to app development easy enough.
Also don't just focus on one platform, there are also many (probably more) Android phones out there, as well as Windows Phone 8 which has the potential to get a even larger market share now with the new wp devices on the way. Couple that with the fact that Microsoft are bringing out their surface tablets later in the year (I think?) which will run Windows 8 in some cases, which is possibly where the future of app development is heading (to full scale operating systems)?

Nick

syklops

Heljic wrote: »

I wouldn't go near C++, it'd take you half a year to program a button to open a web browser link (sarcasm, but true in essence); want my advice?

You're better off freelancing, developing iOS applications with C# (MonoTouch, check out Xamarin for cross-platform development between iOS & Android). The language is really simple to use, efficient and no complicated bull****. Straightforward functions, speedy and overall perfect. The catch, is the monetary investment. If you're packing with some ideas and have decent designing skill, that'd be the way to go. You could do this in your spare time while staying with a full time job elsewhere.

All you need is a Mac, iPhone/iPod Touch (not even, you can emulate on the OS itself), and an Apple Developer account. In regards to the language, it has its similarities between C++ and Java. Picking the lesser of the 'evils', C# would be the best option. You can simply Google tutorials, and there's plenty of documentation floating around the interwebs and on Xamarin.

I'm headed there myself, the market is young, very young. There's a bright future for mobile development my friend, I'm headed there after wasting my time with Android exclusively. Take this on board, think about it. I'll help you out with more information if you're intrigued.

.. did I forget to say that's it's really fun and a great hobby to make the extra buck? Silly me

I don't think the OP wants a job as a programmer. I understand he is a sparks by trade and is branching into electronics, where I would imagine a knowledge of circuitry, soldering, debugging and general electricity theory would be applicable. The MD of the company recommended he learn C++ as it would be beneficial tot he job. This suggests to me he has his foot in the door. Its a very big leap to go from having your foot in the door of an electronics firm to teaching yourself how to develop iphone apps and then selling them.

I know a guy who writes and sells iPhone apps. He cant afford to live in the UK where he is from so he lives in Brno, where the cost of living is low. He makes enough money to live comfortably, but it will be sometime before there is a jaguar in his driveway(or until he has a driveway).

Heljic

Gurgle wrote: »

This is facepalmably naive.
That bright future is halfway through already.

Very very few people will ever get rich doing app development, a small number will make a decent western world middle-class wage and huge numbers in the 2nd/3rd world will grind out apps to spec for $1 an hour.

If that's all you need, its all anyone needs.

.. what's the issue then? Better late than never. 'Very few', have bright ideas which excel in the mobile industry. You can easily get over the minimum wage in Ireland in a year from making a few applications, even one if you're lucky. How is this a disadvantage, if you're doing so 'in your spare time'?

yoyo wrote: »

Agreed completely, and with the rate of changes being made to the smartphone world, app development will also be changing quite fast. It is best to get an idea of the core languages, Java, C, C++, PHP (for web design) etc. before learning a very application specific language. Getting knowledge of the core languages should make the transition to app development easy enough.
Also don't just focus on one platform, there are also many (probably more) Android phones out there, as well as Windows Phone 8 which has the potential to get a even larger market share now with the new wp devices on the way. Couple that with the fact that Microsoft are bringing out their surface tablets later in the year (I think?) which will run Windows 8 in some cases, which is possibly where the future of app development is heading (to full scale operating systems)?

Nick

You're saying C# isn't a core language? Oh God. Why go further. I hope you've heard of MonoTouch; C# development across the three main platforms, being iOS, Android and WP7.. crossover code for the most part with the GUI differences of course to suit each system accordingly. I've been researching this for quite a long time.. Do you think all of these big industries such as YouTube/Facebook and others of course, code in Java (Android), Objective-C (iOS) and C# (WP7) individually, in different programs? That'd be idiotic. People go to university for 4 years, to obtain the knowledge to program in all of those languages successfully, to begin with.

syklops wrote: »

I don't think the OP wants a job as a programmer. I understand he is a sparks by trade and is branching into electronics, where I would imagine a knowledge of circuitry, soldering, debugging and general electricity theory would be applicable. The MD of the company recommended he learn C++ as it would be beneficial tot he job. This suggests to me he has his foot in the door. Its a very big leap to go from having your foot in the door of an electronics firm to teaching yourself how to develop iphone apps and then selling them.

I know a guy who writes and sells iPhone apps. He cant afford to live in the UK where he is from so he lives in Brno, where the cost of living is low. He makes enough money to live comfortably, but it will be sometime before there is a jaguar in his driveway(or until he has a driveway).

Quite true. If he wants to develop on a lower scaled basis as a hobby to earn some extra money with no stress to make the next million dollar program, mobile development (C# MonoTouch cross-platform development) would be his best option.

If he's looking into a full scale career to work within a firm, you'll need an array of programming languages under your belt such as Java, C#, C++, and a few scripting languages such as HTML/CSS, PHP and so on.

You're better off doing it as a hobby mate, like I said before, people go to university for 4 years, to obtain the knowledge to program in all of those languages successfully. Lower scaled mobile development would be ideal, while keeping the job you have now.

langdang

Heljic wrote: »

I wouldn't go near C++, it'd take you half a year to program a button to open a web browser link (sarcasm, but true in essence); want my advice?

Very little to do with test engineering, most likely. It'll be low level inputs and outputs of a specific Device Under Test he'll be looking at, depending on the company there may be automated control of some tester electronics etc.

In terms of large scale production test equipment, I've seen C and VBA used. Smaller stuff done on desks would be using Labview or equivalent software (does anyone still use HP VEE??), VBA at the heart of again AFAIK.
If it's C++ in use here then it's what he needs to learn. A good sparks would have aptitude for the debugging of circuits etc, he most likely won't need super duper programming skills, it's more "functional" programming than anything else. Someone writing web browsers and apps won't be much help when you need to figure out if and where the test board or the DUT is giving trouble.

The only advice I would have is that electronics can be very specialised, if you have an interest in programming would you be interested in a more industrial control, PLCs etc type of job daludo? (obviously don't look a gift horse in the mouth if this job is there for ya).

Can't honestly say what the most efficient way is to become proficient, I just picked up programming in college and on the job.
Maybe you could post in the Engineering forum, people there might have better advice on "engineering" programming than mobile development programming.

EDIT - correction - labview etc are not VBA based. We just ended up using a lot of interfacing to VBA when we were using.

yoyo

Heljic wrote: »

You're saying C# isn't a core language? Oh God. Why go further. I hope you've heard of MonoTouch; C# development across the three main platforms, being iOS, Android and WP7.. crossover code for the most part with the GUI differences of course to suit each system accordingly. I've been researching this for quite a long time.. Do you think all of these big industries such as YouTube/Facebook and others of course, code in Java (Android), Objective-C (iOS) and C# (WP7) individually, in different programs? That'd be idiotic. People go to university for 4 years, to obtain the knowledge to program in all of those languages successfully, to begin with.

I never said that (although sorry for leaving out c#). I said that it would be foolish to specialise in one particular area (in this case app development) when it is pretty likely in the future will change quite massively. I suggested to learn how to write programs generally and then specialise, not only will it be easier to sit down and write apps, but as technologies change you should find it easier to adapt to the changes. I have a degree in computer science btw. i'll be honest I've not heard of monotouch until now, but why would I as I'm not an app developer

Nick

Heljic

yoyo wrote: »

I never said that (although sorry for leaving out c#). I said that it would be foolish to specialise in one particular area (in this case app development) when it is pretty likely in the future will change quite massively. I suggested to learn how to write programs generally and then specialise, not only will it be easier to sit down and write apps, but as technologies change you should find it easier to adapt to the changes. I have a degree in computer science btw. i'll be honest I've not heard of monotouch until now, but why would I as I'm not an app developer

Nick

It's alright, figured that you made a small mistake. I know what you mean, but the outcome could be worth while, it's a risk indeed. Getting myself an iPhone 5 in the next week hopefully, shame there's no Apple store or any shop to begin with who'll be stocking them on the date of launch.

Anyway, I know it'll be easier, was beneficial when I got into Java development a while back before heading into Android development, but some people don't have time to spend, self-learning numerous languages/platforms! I'm pretty sure Apple will be around for quite a long time .. if they go under, Android/WP7 will be around, vice versa (Android/WP7 would go under before iOS, if you ask me).

Yea that's cool mate, I understand where you're coming from now. What do I know about the ins and outs of in depth programming, in comparison to the likes of yourself, I'm a 17 year old, aspiring Computer Scientist Don't underestimate my capabilities by my age. I had an early start, my future is set in stone. If you have a degree, things become much easier and doors open for future employment opportunities. In the case of this guy who is 'way' past third level education, it'd be a pain in the ass learning numerous languages simultaneously, or even individually. Progress speed would be diminished to an all time low.

.. I think your knowledge exceeds mobile application development as a full time profession, for the moment my sisters husband has a PhD in Computer Science, he's considering mobile development as a hobby outside of work at home, it's fun!

yoyo

Heljic wrote: »

Yea that's cool mate, I understand where you're coming from now. What do I know about the ins and outs of in depth programming, in comparison to the likes of yourself, I'm a 17 year old, aspiring Computer Scientist Don't underestimate my capabilities by my age. I had an early start, my future is set in stone. If you have a degree, things become much easier and doors open for future employment opportunities. In the case of this guy who is 'way' past third level education, it'd be a pain in the ass learning numerous languages simultaneously, or even individually. Progress speed would be diminished to an all time low.

.. I think your knowledge exceeds mobile application development as a full time profession, for the moment my sisters husband has a PhD in Computer Science, he's considering mobile development as a hobby outside of work at home, it's fun!

I apprciate what your saying. I will still say though that specialising in a particular area, particularly app programming is quite a risky thing to be doing, as the way we write apps now, is likely going to change considerably over the next few years. In college I wrote Java mobile apps in the midp/cldc configuration. A few years back, Java was the "cutting edge" for mobile games and applications. Look at how this has all changed now that we have different smartphone os's and expectations.
To just focus on ios, android or wm is taking a huge risk, as such you are probably better off spending the time not making cutting edge mobile apps that may only be 'in' for another few years but getting an understanding of oop, and the common languages before delving into specific sdks. I will admit I amn't particularly interested in programming except web orientated stuff, but I'm speaking from expierience from how we are thought in college, as well as how courses are structured. We went from learning C->C++->Java->JSP/JSF->Mobile development. Understanding the basis of the other languages is considered important before you delve into possibly easier to use SDKs. You still know how to program, but yet you can specialise into a specific type of programming.

Nick

Heljic

yoyo wrote: »

I apprciate what your saying. I will still say though that specialising in a particular area, particularly app programming is quite a risky thing to be doing, as the way we write apps now, is likely going to change considerably over the next few years. In college I wrote Java mobile apps in the midp/cldc configuration. A few years back, Java was the "cutting edge" for mobile games and applications. Look at how this has all changed now that we have different smartphone os's and expectations.
To just focus on ios, android or wm is taking a huge risk, as such you are probably better off spending the time not making cutting edge mobile apps that may only be 'in' for another few years but getting an understanding of oop, and the common languages before delving into specific sdks. I will admit I amn't particularly interested in programming except web orientated stuff, but I'm speaking from expierience from how we are thought in college, as well as how courses are structured. We went from learning C->C++->Java->JSP/JSF->Mobile development. Understanding the basis of the other languages is considered important before you delve into possibly easier to use SDKs. You still know how to program, but yet you can specialise into a specific type of programming.

Nick

Risky of course. Just recently, a group of developers developed Androids API's in C#, from Java .. sped up the system by around 60-70% (not too sure, around that figure), now they're considering on moving away from Java after they've done this. This will put a lot of developers at a disadvantage, some may not know C# or may not want to switch, reason why they're putting it off for a while. That's an example how things can change fast. I still have my hopes in C#.

I've got another year to go before I potentially head into Computer Science, getting to grips with language syntax and how things work.. will benefit me either way at a later stage, I'm not making a permanent profession of the mobile market. The money involved could help me in many ways, recession related issues, how fun hopefully the SDK doesn't peer off too much into a different direction from the oriented C# 'Mono type cross-platform' development. The code is pretty much the same across the three platforms when using C#, excluding the XML styling/layouts. Three in one, why not. I have interest in both web and program development.. making a profession out of it in general.

I just see C++ as a major waste of time, it's too in depth for the simple things in programming. It does have its uses here and there. The specializing will come in time, I'm in no hurry. My goal is getting into my desired university.. but the points are through the roof!

langdang

Heljic wrote: »

I just see C++ as a major waste of time, it's too in depth for the simple things in programming. It does have its uses here and there.

You better get onto the MD of that company that the OP was hoping to join, get em to change all their systems!

Heljic wrote: »

My goal is getting into my desired university.. but the points are through the roof!

Try more listening, less tangents! Seriously. If you do you'll be fine, programming aptitude will probably show in maths and science subjects so you should be able to scoop up points there. I doubt there's any programming/CS courses after hitting dentistry/vet/medicine levels.


Daludo, any other questions?

Heljic

langdang wrote: »

You better get onto the MD of that company that the OP was hoping to join, get em to change all their systems!

Try more listening, less tangents! Seriously. If you do you'll be fine, programming aptitude will probably show in maths and science subjects so you should be able to scoop up points there. I doubt there's any programming/CS courses after hitting dentistry/vet/medicine levels.

Daluda, any other questions?

HL Maths & Physics, doing pretty well from the looks of it, potential aptitude present.. time to fulfil my capabilities with study Taking HL everything except Irish, of course. Hopefully my requirements will suit TCD in a year or so, unless they spike over 500 (doubt it, massive spike was due to the Project Maths +25 point addition). I'm not even looking at other courses, if everything goes my way, I'll be a TCD student, studying Computer Science & Business.

My sisters husband went from a general Science degree course (wasn't his cup of tea), into Computer Science after a year. Within the medical sector, no programming present

Gurgle

I wouldn't go near C++, it'd take you half a year to program a button to open a web browser link

Closer to 30 seconds, and that includes the 15 seconds it takes to start up Visual studio.

Heljic wrote: »

I just see C++ as a major waste of time, it's too in depth for the simple things in programming.

I generally use C# for PC software these days. I really haven't seen any improvement in development time over C++, although that's probably down to the type of software I work on.

Advantages of C++:
Compiles to native code, fastest execution speed.
No external library dependencies.
Very quick to build applications in general and GUIs in particular.
No 'black-box' plugins, I know exactly what every line of code does.
It is the template for all OOP languages. If you have a good working knowledge of C++ you can take up any OOP language in a couple of weeks.

Disadvantages:
Code needs to be re-compiled for different platforms.
It takes more effort to make re-useable code.
Not so easy to just dive into building GUI based applications (beyond the simplest controls), there is a pretty steep learning curve.