Clare Co Council and the household charge

bbam

I hear on the radio thismorning that Clare Co Council are holding payment of any 3rd level grants until proof of payment of the household charge is produced.

What a brilliant idea.

You want access to public funding, great. Show us you have contributed your bit to the latest public funding initiave and away you go.

It's a two way street. I'm sure now that they have led the way there will be other councils with incentive schemes to get it collected. Pure Brilliance, up the Banner !

Anyone any other ideas,
Next childrens allowance payment? , sure, just send in a copy of your receipt for the household charge first. Thank you !

Davidth88

I heard this on the radio this morning , my reaction was the same

Great !!!


If not , I hope when the dreaded tax comes in for real next year that they give a large discount to people who actually paid the registration on time.

JimiTime

In other news, Leinster house politicians still collect 'Tiger' wages while pontificating about how we must understand the dire financial crisis we're in. They were also seen laughing as the Irish public were too busy begrudging each other and delighting in extortion to care.

bbam

JimiTime wrote: »

In other news, Leinster house politicians still collect 'Tiger' wages while pontificating about how we must understand the dire financial crisis we're in. They were also seen laughing as the Irish public were too busy begrudging each other and delighting in extortion to care.

Fine but when they come knocking I'll have the position that I've paid my dues, held up my side of the public responsibility to help pay for services.

They on the other hand have sat on their hands and deivered nothing that they said they would.. the Seanad still bleeds us dry with no output, it turned out to be very much not "Labours way" with the bond holders, they themselves exceeded the pay caps put in place... allowed a known tax evader to sit in the Dail, never mind the pot smoking idiot in the tee shirts beside him.

I for one can stand on my threashold and stare them down over this..

Its about reaponsibility, those of us who can do their bit should and hold the others who should be doing their bit to account for it..

This is a society, we all share the burden. Its not a case of they dont so I wont..

JimiTime

bbam wrote: »

Fine but when they come knocking I'll have the position that I've paid my dues, held up my side of the public responsibility to help pay for services.

They on the other hand have sat on their hands and deivered nothing that they said they would.. the Seanad still bleeds us dry with no output, it turned out to be very much not "Labours way" with the bond holders, they themselves exceeded the pay caps put in place... allowed a known tax evader to sit in the Dail, never mind the pot smoking idiot in the tee shirts beside him.

I for one can stand on my threashold and stare them down over this..

Its about reaponsibility, those of us who can do their bit should and hold the others who should be doing their bit to account for it..

This is a society, we all share the burden. Its not a case of they dont so I wont..

Can't you do that without delighting in extortion?

MagicMarker

How many 3rd level students own their own house?

Sleepy

Any third level student applying for a grant must give their parents details.

Clever move by the councils and one I'd fully support.

bamboozle

JimiTime wrote: »

Can't you do that without delighting in extortion?

where's the extortion?

Grants not being paid until proof of household charge not being paid is not extortion, its a stipulation to ensure that members of society are making a contribution rather than having the hand out time and again.

Great idea and hats off the Clare County Council.

bamboozle

bbam wrote: »

Fine but when they come knocking I'll have the position that I've paid my dues, held up my side of the public responsibility to help pay for services.

They on the other hand have sat on their hands and deivered nothing that they said they would.. the Seanad still bleeds us dry with no output, it turned out to be very much not "Labours way" with the bond holders, they themselves exceeded the pay caps put in place... allowed a known tax evader to sit in the Dail, never mind the pot smoking idiot in the tee shirts beside him.

I for one can stand on my threashold and stare them down over this..

Its about reaponsibility, those of us who can do their bit should and hold the others who should be doing their bit to account for it..

This is a society, we all share the burden. Its not a case of they dont so I wont..

the last Dail Bill rejected by the Seanad was in 1964 the pawnbrokers bill - this vote was only rejected as it took place at 10.30pm by which time all the FF senators had gone home!!)

pointless talking shop & ex TD retirement home

eigrod

It's similar to a contractor having to produce a tax clearance cert before getting any publicly procured contract with a state body and is to be welcomed, in my opinion.

Trampas

Will they ever know who has paid not paid the HHC?

Seems like they have no idea and never will.

I am surprised government haven't asked Tesco etc to do bag package at the weekends to raise cash or church gate collection.

mike65

Household Tax 100 euro,

Deputy Ruairí Quinn: Students entering postgraduates courses who meet the qualifying conditions for the special rate of grant will be eligible to have their postgraduate tuition fees paid up to the maximum fee limit of €6,270 under the student grant scheme. In addition, a limited number of students who would previously have qualified under the standard grant thresholds will qualify for a €2,000 contribution towards the costs of their fees

Do the maths.

n97 mini

Reminds me of one of those Nigerian 419er scams, except this one is true!

You send us €100 and we'll send you back thousands!

mikom

Meanwhile...

Clare
County manager (Tom Coughlan): €142,469
Chief veterinary inspector: €93,436 to €109,927
4 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
2 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
Senior executive officer: €64,426 to €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €1,025,383
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/organisations-are-top-heavy-with-high-earners-189877.html

Ireland 2012.......... where young people may be forced to divorce their parents to become part of the "knowledge" economy.
Let the race to the bottom begin.
.
.

JimiTime

bamboozle wrote: »

where's the extortion?

Grants not being paid until proof of household charge not being paid is not extortion, its a stipulation to ensure that members of society are making a contribution rather than having the hand out time and again.

The extortion is in the fact that they are holding students Parents to ransom. So they are extorting the HHC, by holding back on student grants. Now, you may see it in a different way. You may believe that people should just pay whatever the government tell them to. TBH, I wont argue with that, thats your business. However, in current circumstances, with the HUGELY over inflated wages being paid to our politicians along with their pontification about the state of the finances, it is not unreasonable to say 'Hang on a minute' as more and more levies are pushed onto already under the cosh families.

The least the Irish public should get, is empathy in relation to this, even if you don't agree with it. Delighting in the devious ways this overpaid, overinflated, under-performing government are going to extract this HHC is rather distasteful IMO.

Great idea and hats off the Clare County Council.

I agree that its a great way of getting people to pay it. Holding people to ransom is an effective means of extorting money. Its certainly not laudable though.

bamboozle

mikom wrote: »

Meanwhile...



Ireland 2012.......... where young people may be forced to divorce their parents to become part of the "knowledge" economy.
Let the race to the bottom begin.
.
.

how would you suggest the country raises the €15 billion defecit between income and expenditure?

remember, public sector salaries are protected.
The race to the bottom began when Bertie and co caved into the various unions through benchmarking, we're now screwed with a bloated & overpaid public sector whose wages are not only untouchable but also growing through their annual pay increments.

ps- many more young people and not so young people have had to emigrate this country to find work as they lost their jobs or had zero chance of getting one upon graduating.

mikom

bamboozle wrote: »

how would you suggest the country raises the €15 billion defecit between income and expenditure?

With the wages that they are on I expect a few better moves than those used by the Clare co co Tony Sopranos that thought this extortion up.

bamboozle wrote: »

ps- many more young people and not so young people have had to emigrate this country to find work as they lost their jobs or had zero chance of getting one upon graduating.

Enda's bringing them back for the "gathering" so it's all good.
.
.

NIMAN

I'd say they are well within their rights.

The HC was meant to stay locally, and as such was income for the local CoCo.

If people withheld it, and thus withheld money from their local CoCo, then they should be questioned when trying to draw down on money from the same CoCo.

maccored

yay! great to see so many cheerleading the fact that families who cant afford to pay the housing tax, now also cant afford to send their kids to college! three cheers for democracy and helping the wealthy to get educated!

Maggie would be proud, thats all I' can say. Lets see what kind of workers we have in a decade.

muppetkiller

I wonder how this will work for mature Students living in rented Accommodation ?
They wont get their grant if the landlord hasn't paid his property tax ?

ArmaniJeanss

JimiTime wrote: »

The extortion is in the fact that they are holding students Parents to ransom. So they are extorting the HHC, by holding back on student grants.

"You must have paid this tax, before you are eligible to receive the tax money contributed by tax compliant people" is hardly extortion.

mitosis

Sleepy wrote: »

Any third level student applying for a grant must give their parents details.

Clever move by the councils and one I'd fully support.

Will you also support blocking JSB if the car is not taxed?

bamboozle

JimiTime wrote: »

The extortion is in the fact that they are holding students Parents to ransom. So they are extorting the HHC, by holding back on student grants. Now, you may see it in a different way. You may believe that people should just pay whatever the government tell them to. TBH, I wont argue with that, thats your business. However, in current circumstances, with the HUGELY over inflated wages being paid to our politicians along with their pontification about the state of the finances, it is not unreasonable to say 'Hang on a minute' as more and more levies are pushed onto already under the cosh families.

The least the Irish public should get, is empathy in relation to this, even if you don't agree with it. Delighting in the devious ways this overpaid, overinflated, under-performing government are going to extract this HHC is rather distasteful IMO.


I agree that its a great way of getting people to pay it. Holding people to ransom is an effective means of extorting money. Its certainly not laudable though.

Once again i completely disagree. It is quite simple if these people want to avail of these generous grants, then they must prove their household (on which their grant application is determined) has paid the HHC. If they decide not to prove the HHC has been paid then they will be choosing to forego the grant.

'You may believe that people should just pay whatever the government tell them to.'

Eh just to update you, this is called abiding by the law, our government makes the law, its up to us to abide or face the appropriate censure. We may not like it but that's life.


I'm all for scrapping the Seanad and slashing our inept policitians salaries, we should also be tackling the crazy pensions former politicians are receiving.

Most of all salaries in the public sector need to be brought in line with UK and European equivalents especially for those earning over 40-50k and doing very little.

bamboozle

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

"You must have paid this tax, before you are eligible to receive the tax money contributed by tax compliant people" is hardly extortion.

very well put, unfotunately it will fall on deaf ears.

mitosis

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

"You must have paid this tax, before you are eligible to receive the tax money contributed by tax compliant people" is hardly extortion.

It is unlikely the 3rd level student is a home owner. Do you therefore believe the child should be punished for the sins of the parent? Do you now think it would be OK for a mortgage to pass to the child when the parent dies?

I'm all for taking action against the offender, but against their offspring?

A popular position here is that it is not acceptable to cut payments to single parents as it would impact on the child. How is this different?

Bray Header

Let me preface this by saying first of all, I'm an employed professional. I'd be classed as a "high earner" by the the Loonie Lefties, but struggle to meet my financial commitments every month.

I paid 14k in USC last year, and an inordinate amount of tax, and I'm taking my share of the burden, because that's what I have to do.

I posted about htis on FB earlier, so just copying and pasting, it's my personal view of the situation.

It's rant time. Clare County Council are refusing to give a College Grant to applicants unless they prove that the house they are living in has paid the household charge. Ruairi Quinn, you should be ashamed of yourself for saying that this is an acceptable policy.

First of all, you're supposed to be Labour, which means standing up for the Ordinary Working Class, but you've completely abandoned your political principals.

Secondly, the College Grant comes from the General Tax Pool, not the Local Authority Budget, for which the household charge is apparently for. This means that the grant come from income tax, paid for by you and me, and is completely separate to Local Authority Budgets. We, the citizens of this country, consent to the Student Grant through taxes, as it will improve the future of our nation.

Thirdly, it's the student applying for the grant, not the homeowner. So legally, they are on very dodgy ground.

To threaten to hijack the education of our future Business Leaders and Politicians is nothing short of treason, and your head should be hung in shame.

Yes we live in tough times, but a society in my opinion should always be judged on how we treat the Young, Old, Sick and Students. These are the people who got us where we are, and will take us where we're going.

Nate--IRL--

mitosis wrote: »

Will you also support blocking JSB if the car is not taxed?

Brilliant Idea!

Nate

bbsrs

They may as well go a step further , give the grant to those who qualify then ask if the HHC has been paid . If answer is no reroute outstanding HHC due to local council from allocated grant . Same end result .

daenerysstormborn3

Students at UCC and WIT also report receiving letters looking for evidence of payment.

Sleepy

mitosis wrote: »

Will you also support blocking JSB if the car is not taxed?

Unless the car is certified as being (and genuinely is) off the road, that sounds like an excellent idea.

ArmaniJeanss

mitosis wrote: »

It is unlikely the 3rd level student is a home owner. Do you therefore believe the child should be punished for the sins of the parent?

This is completely irelevant for grants as they've always been based on the circumstances of the parents. Otherwise 99.99% of students would qualify for a grant. Being punished for having 'rich parents' has always been a feature of the system.

Zulu

mitosis wrote: »

Will you also support blocking JSB if the car is not taxed?

Frankly, I would! I think it's a great move. You pay in - you get out. Simples.

(This is coming from someone who hasn't yet paid the hhc. My objection was that the government weren't doing enough to get funds in - except for lazy taxes. This is exactly what I'd like to see done - coupled with wage cuts to certain sectors, and an end to "unvouched" expenses. I think I might just pay the charge now. Kudos Clare.)

maccored

Grants are given to those who cannot afford it. This way, they aren't giving grants to those who cant afford to pay a tax (though there are those that also refuse to pay - regardless, it still affects those who cant)

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

This is completely irelevant for grants as they've always been based on the circumstances of the parents. Otherwise 99.99% of students would qualify for a grant. Being punished for having 'rich parents' has always been a feature of the system.

JimiTime

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

"You must have paid this tax, before you are eligible to receive the tax money contributed by tax compliant people" is hardly extortion.

Holding a students education to ransom, in order to extract a contentious charge from their parents is the very definition of extortion and an awful abuse of power. All of this while these people draw down exorbitant salaries and expenses etc. Pontificating about how we are all in this together, and that we must realise the financial mess of the country. Its absolutely abhorrent. Again though, if people differ with this opinion, fair enough. I think they should still have empathy for the circumstance though, and not delight in such carry on. It should sadden us all that we are at this point.

martingriff

JimiTime wrote: »

Holding a students education to ransom, in order to extract a contentious charge from their parents is the very definition of extortion and an awful abuse of power. All of this while these people draw down exorbitant salaries and expenses etc. Pontificating about how we are all in this together, and that we must realise the financial mess of the country. Its absolutely abhorrent. Again though, if people differ with this opinion, fair enough. I think they should still have empathy for the circumstance though, and not delight in such carry on. It should sadden us all that we are at this point.

Not really there not holding the education to ransom. They aint stopping them from going to college. The tax is the law like it or not (and there is a lot who don't). Also I dont see anywhere where the council have said if it is not paid we will say no. There money has been cut as there portion of the houshold tax has not been fully collected so only getting thee percentage paid. Good on the council

NIMAN

Give them a couple of days to show proof, then take the €100 from their grant!

mike65

Any family that can send a child to college/university can afford the household charge.

JimiTime

martingriff wrote: »

Not really there not holding the education to ransom. They aint stopping them from going to college.

Refusing to pay the grant until the HHC is paid is indeed holding it to ransom.

The tax is the law like it or not (and there is a lot who don't).

Then let the courts deal with it!

Also I dont see anywhere where the council have said if it is not paid we will say no.

If thats the case, then there is no issue. The story has been presented as a 'Stand and Deliver' scenario though.

There money has been cut as there portion of the houshold tax has not been fully collected

Then they should get off their @sses and go around looking for it, serve who they need to with penalty notices and let the courts take care of it.

Good on the council

Sure why not tell parents that their children are no longer entitled to a place in primary school too until they pay it.

Again, these measures are absolutely not laudable and it should sadden us that this country has come to this.

JimiTime

mike65 wrote: »

Any family that can send a child to college/university can afford the household charge.

Its not about the €100 registration fee though is it. Its about the €1000 charge thats on the way. Even our own Prime Minister referred to such a tax as immoral. But sure, thats not the point here. The point is the delighting in the behaviour of the CCC to hold Parents' childrens education to Ransom.

mike65

I'll say the same about the full fat property tax, which by the way will not be anything like 1,000 euro average, certainly I expect the kind of families who qualify for student grants will be paying more like 300-400.

Sleepy

JimiTime wrote: »

it should sadden us that this country has come to this.

Agreed, it's quite saddening that so many citizens refuse to live up to their social and legal responsibilities that they have to be coerced into doing so.

JimiTime

Sleepy wrote: »

Agreed, it's quite saddening that so many citizens refuse to live up to their social and legal responsibilities that they have to be coerced into doing so.

Whatever your views (This whole rationale of 'just do as your told because its the law' can easily be dismissed by a simple reductio ad absurdum), Its sad that authorities are extorting citizens, and its sad that people delight in the fact that the powers that be are extorting citizens.

Welease

JimiTime wrote: »

Whatever your views (This whole rationale of 'just do as your told because its the law' can easily be dismissed by a simple reductio ad absurdum), Its sad that authorities are extorting citizens, and its sad that people delight in the fact that the powers that be are extorting citizens.

And it's equally sad that some citizens continually expect to recieve the benefits offered by society but refuse to pay their fair share (which still doesn't cover the financial defecit that these services create.. thereby creating an even bigger problem for future generations)...

Sleepy

JimiTime wrote: »

Whatever your views (This whole rationale of 'just do as your told because its the law' can easily be dismissed by a simple reductio ad absurdum), Its sad that authorities are extorting citizens, and its sad that people delight in the fact that the powers that be are extorting citizens.

We live in a representative democracy. Unless you can convince 50%+1 of the electorate to vote otherwise, we're stuck with the laws as they stand.

Yes, it's glorified mob rule. Yes, it's horribly, horribly flawed.

Unfortunately, nothing else has worked better in the entire history of mankind. I'm very interested to hear if you have a workable alternative but it's a conversation for the Political Theory forum rather than this thread.

beeno67

maccored wrote: »

yay! great to see so many cheerleading the fact that families who cant afford to pay the housing tax, now also cant afford to send their kids to college! three cheers for democracy and helping the wealthy to get educated!

Maggie would be proud, thats all I' can say. Lets see what kind of workers we have in a decade.

27 cent a day. How many families in Ireland cannot afford 27c a day? Bugger all.

Thirdfox

Sleepy wrote: »

We live in a representative democracy. Unless you can convince 50%+1 of the electorate to vote otherwise, we're stuck with the laws as they stand.

Yes, it's glorified mob rule. Yes, it's horribly, horribly flawed.

Unfortunately, nothing else has worked better in the entire history of mankind. I'm very interested to hear if you have a workable alternative but it's a conversation for the Political Theory forum rather than this thread.

It's actually better than glorified mob rule - we have our Constitutional protections that protect us from the tyranny of the majority generally.

So there are two legal options for those who are unhappy with our current laws:-

1. Change the executive/legislative branches of government (50%+1 come election time, though in our State less than 50% should be fine too) or;

2. Convince enough judges (1 in High Court, 3-5 in Supreme Court) that the laws are unconstitutional.

So the poster has two options with trying to legally effect change.

I've paid my household charge and will pay my property/water etc tax because I don't see an alternative, certainly not from the economic models the other parties were espousing during the last general election.

Scortho

muppetkiller wrote: »

I wonder how this will work for mature Students living in rented Accommodation ?
They wont get their grant if the landlord hasn't paid his property tax ?

Mature students who are living independently are not assessed on their parents income. Also their grant will not be refused if the landlord hasn't paid his household charge or NPPR.

keano89

I'm glad the County councils are making a stand on this issue, about time people other than the PAYE worker were asked to pay their way. This household charge across the board is a hell of a lot better than a increase in income tax.

"ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country" springs to mind. Some people want everything for free but at the same time don't want to pay their contribution to society.

ncdadam

maccored wrote: »

yay! great to see so many cheerleading the fact that families who cant afford to pay the housing tax, now also cant afford to send their kids to college! three cheers for democracy and helping the wealthy to get educated!

Maggie would be proud, thats all I' can say. Lets see what kind of workers we have in a decade.

Won't matter, the best and the brightest will get their degree and get out of here as fast as they can if they have any sense.

ncdadam

keano89 wrote: »

I'm glad the County councils are making a stand on this issue, about time people other than the PAYE worker were asked to pay their way. This household charge across the board is a hell of a lot better than a increase in income tax.

"ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country" springs to mind. Some people want everything for free but at the same time don't want to pay their contribution to society.

But the HHC isn't 'across the board' is it, it's only for people who were foolish enough to provide the roof over their head themselves.
What's the difference between this and a rise in income tax?
I know, only owners have to pay it.

keano89

ncdadam wrote: »

But the HHC isn't 'across the board' is it, it's only for people who were foolish enough to provide the roof over their head themselves.
What's the difference between this and a rise in income tax?
I know, only owners have to pay it.

Why shouldn't owners have to pay a tax on a house, its a valuable asset.