Clare Co Council and the household charge

sarumite

ncdadam wrote: »

But the HHC isn't 'across the board' is it, it's only for people who were foolish enough to provide the roof over their head themselves.
What's the difference between this and a rise in income tax?
I know, only owners have to pay it.

Most landlords will just integrate into the overall rent bill. When I was in the UK, thats what used to happen with the council tax. It was just part of my rent. I really don't see why it would be any different here.

bbsrs

keano89 wrote: »

ncdadam wrote: »

But the HHC isn't 'across the board' is it, it's only for people who were foolish enough to provide the roof over their head themselves.
What's the difference between this and a rise in income tax?
I know, only owners have to pay it.

Why shouldn't owners have to pay a tax on a house, its a valuable asset.

It's hardly valuable to you if the mortgage on it is twice the market value of it.

ncdadam

keano89 wrote: »

Why shouldn't owners have to pay a tax on a house, its a valuable asset.

Someone with a €300,000 mortgage on a house worth €150,000 has a 'valuable asset'?
Savings in a bank are a valuable asset, should savings be taxed too (not just the interest)?
Jewellery worth €200,000 is a valuable asset, should that be taxed?
Some nice artwork would be a 'valuable asset', tax that too?

Sleepy

Agreed, the constitution allows for some protection, however all a referendum requires to pass is the same 50% +1 of the electorate to change it...

Lantus

The request for HHC clarification targets only one small group, not exactly fair. Why? Because the government cannot impliment a fair system to collect it. The failure is systemic and by government.

The systems we are funding are archaic, wasteful, unnacountable and corupt. IF, before the government decided they would enter our pockets to remove more money they first corrected the failed systems and corruption and started on a path of accountability then we could probably be much more understanding of any required tax increses.

To do that would require a team of problem solvers and I have yet to meet one holding any position in government. That is why people justifiably withhold payment, because you should not reward fools and idiots with more money when they believe that massive waste and corruption is a normal and everyday part of the system they have indocrinated into believing is all wonderful and doesn't need fixing.

JimiTime

Lantus wrote: »

The request for HHC clarification targets only one small group, not exactly fair. Why? Because the government cannot impliment a fair system to collect it. The failure is systemic and by government.

The systems we are funding are archaic, wasteful, unnacountable and corupt. IF, before the government decided they would enter our pockets to remove more money they first corrected the failed systems and corruption and started on a path of accountability then we could probably be much more understanding of any required tax increses.

To do that would require a team of problem solvers and I have yet to meet one holding any position in government. That is why people justifiably withhold payment, because you should not reward fools and idiots with more money when they believe that massive waste and corruption is a normal and everyday part of the system they have indocrinated into believing is all wonderful and doesn't need fixing.

This + 100

JimiTime

Sleepy wrote: »

We live in a representative democracy. Unless you can convince 50%+1 of the electorate to vote otherwise, we're stuck with the laws as they stand.

Yes, it's glorified mob rule. Yes, it's horribly, horribly flawed.

Unfortunately, nothing else has worked better in the entire history of mankind. I'm very interested to hear if you have a workable alternative but it's a conversation for the Political Theory forum rather than this thread.

There's only one thing that is required, and that is leadership. As alluded to by Lantus, while there is such inefficiency, cronyism, waste and exorbitant 'tiger' wages etc, then people have a very strong argument for holding back payment. Until then, these devious methods should be criticised. This is no different to Charlie Haughey telling the nation to tighten its belt, while blowing thousands on Charvet shirts and putting it on expenses. The leaders must lead, not just point. They are continuing to ride the gravy train, and getting us all to pay the fare. I really can't fathom the argument that the people resisting this are not taking their social responsibility. By all means put forward your disagreement with why you think their method is not correct, but at least empathise with the issues.

Sleepy

I agree with your criticisms of the government and the waste endemic throughout our public sector.

I do not agree, however, that this entitles me to abdicate my legal obligations in a democratic republic.

KindOfIrish

bamboozle wrote: »

where's the extortion?
Great idea and hats off the Clare County Council.

The Mayor of London's current salary is £143,911 per year.

County manager (Tom Coughlan): €142,469

I see it as an extortion. And the idea is great! for the county manager...

skafish

mitosis wrote: »

Will you also support blocking JSB if the car is not taxed?

YES and peanalising all tax dodgers to the full limit of the law. If I had my was, I would start by confiscating Mick Wallaces's house and putting him into a council house. Then, if the sale price wasn't enough to clear what he defrauded/defaulted, retain half of his salary until it has all been paid, along with interest and penalties.

The so called black economy is estimated at €20 B per year. If the government had the balls to sort this out, we would all need to pay less tax and the current crisis would be resolved a lot more painlessly

skafish

bbsrs wrote: »

It's hardly valuable to you if the mortgage on it is twice the market value of it.

What does the size of the morgage have to do with the value of the house?
And yes I am in negative equity too, my house is worth less than half of what I paid for it, but the contract I entered into has, unfortunatley, no relationship to the current market value of the asset I used the money to buy

keano89

ncdadam wrote: »

Someone with a €300,000 mortgage on a house worth €150,000 has a 'valuable asset'?
Savings in a bank are a valuable asset, should savings be taxed too (not just the interest)?
Jewellery worth €200,000 is a valuable asset, should that be taxed?
Some nice artwork would be a 'valuable asset', tax that too?

Well current policy was one of the factors that contributed to the property bubble. Generous taxes for owner occupied housing incentivises people to buy houses, like the current tax deductions for mortgage interest payments.

creedp

keano89 wrote: »

Well current policy was one of the factors that contributed to the property bubble. Generous taxes for owner occupied housing incentivises people to buy houses, like the current tax deductions for mortgage interest payments.

Is the rental tax credit still available to renters or has it been done away with in the same way as mortgage interest relief has for owner occupiers.. imagine how that fueled high rents during the boom! Why is it that comments such as that generous tax credits/allowances are/were given to owner occupiers are never balanced by the fact that extortionate stamp duty rates were/are applicable to residential property transactions. Imagine if the Govt decided to massively ramp up road tax on post 2008 low carbon cars after people ran out to buy them following on from incentives provided by Govt to do so, i.e. the €156 pa 520D. Ah sure they couldn't do that .. otherwise people who followed Govt advice and reacted to Govt incentives would have been led a merry dance.

I also find it funny how people are so negative towards any assistance given to owner occupiers given that the majority of households in the State are owned and not rented. Presumably those that were lucky not to get caught in the bubble simply love to turn the screw now!

maccored

beeno67 wrote: »

27 cent a day. How many families in Ireland cannot afford 27c a day? Bugger all.

if only life for poorer people was as simple as your maths.

JimiTime

Sleepy wrote: »

I agree with your criticisms of the government and the waste endemic throughout our public sector.

I do not agree, however, that this entitles me to abdicate my legal obligations in a democratic republic.

Fair enough, but can you at least empathise with it? We can surely all separate the difference between justice and law. If our government enacted a law tomorrow to hand over all muslims for extradition to Guantanamo we'd surely not call defying it 'abdication of our legal obligations'. There is an abuse of power going on in this state, and some people are protesting it. Even if we disagree, I really do feel we should be empathising. I certainly see no grounds for delighting in the extortion type methods such powers employ, and also no grounds for calling otherwise tax compliant citizens socially irresponsible.

maccored

ncdadam wrote: »

Won't matter, the best and the brightest will get their degree and get out of here as fast as they can if they have any sense.

The best and the brightest? The ones with the richer parents you mean surely?

beeno67

maccored wrote: »

if only life for poorer people was as simple as your maths.

So, how many families cannot afford 27c a day? Exclude all those with waivers, and how many do you reckon? is bugger all not a fair estimate? Not the ones who don't want to pay, not the ones who "are sick and tired of bailing out the banks", the ones who actually cannot afford 27c a day.
About 40% of households have not paid. The belief that these cannot afford to pay is horse**** of the highest order.

jank

Brilliant. Those who opposed the household charge thought they "got" away with it. The fact that this has come out of the blue and seems some what co ordinated shows how uninformed the likes of Clare Daily and RBB are to what can be done to get people to pay.

If people want to avail of a local service i.e grants then they should pay whatever taxes are due. Tbh they can't complain, for 100 euro they get their registration fees paid up to 6k or so and sometimes a 2k allowance. Yet some people still complain?:rolleyes:

crusher000

Hoepfully at last this action will lead Irish Citizens to take to the streets. If the students and Old age pensioners were to group together for one big rally that would have a large number of people in the protest. It would also give the message that no matter what generation your from that we all stand together against austerity. This is all about protecting the rich of Europe and nothing else. So we need action and fast. There is no end to the amount of pain and hurt that this government are willing to inflict. Failed Labour ( put that in as we have FG/FF) have turned their back on the promises they made before the election.

JustAThought

For two weeks out if every four, I work for free for the government. I pay with direct tax, health tax, facilities taxes & stealth taxes over 50% of my salary to the government.
Enough is enough.

It's coming to the stage where having an illegitimate child, getting a free house, free education support,Medical bills & prescriptions for life, etc is working out more cost efficient than doing an honest days work and putting into the economy. And we won't have to put in any effort , pay any taxes, suffer a two hour commute , work for 8 or 9 hours a day, and never see our children except for weekends, while working to pay someone to care for them.

The waste in this country s administrative, organisational & governmental bodies is catastrophic.

For all my effort and contributions, I struggle to live off 2 weeks wages & pay a mortgage & plan for a future savings, medical bills & am supposed to pay into pension from that too.

Many hard working struggling families can no longer afford to heat their homes properly ; and are constantly one emergency away from a financial crisis.

Sort out the tax cheats, dole cheats, black Market economy, governmental waste & squandering if our tax monies (eg e200k free years salary for all exiting consultants the year they retire-WTF-how many HHCharges is that per consultant) .

Stop screwing the same few citizens who financially contribute & pay for everything & get your house in order.

OMD

JustAThought wrote: »

Sort out the tax cheats, dole cheats, black Market economy, governmental waste & squandering if our tax monies (eg e200k free years salary for all exiting consultants the year they retire-WTF-how many HHCharges is that per consultant) .

Stop screwing the same few citizens who financially contribute & pay for everything & get your house in order.

Sorting out tax cheats would surely include those who don't pay the household charge/tax or do you want to limit it to all tax cheats except people like you?

JustAThought

JustAThought wrote: »

For two weeks out if every four, I work for free for the government. I pay with direct tax, health tax, facilities taxes & stealth taxes over 50% of my salary to the government.
Enough is enough.

It's coming to the stage where having an illegitimate child, getting a free house, free education support,Medical bills & prescriptions for life, etc is working out more cost efficient than doing an honest days work and putting into the economy. And we won't have to put in any effort , pay any taxes, suffer a two hour commute , work for 8 or 9 hours a day, and never see our children except for weekends, while working to pay someone to care for them.

The waste in this country s administrative, organisational & governmental bodies is catastrophic.

For all my effort and contributions, I struggle to live off 2 weeks wages & pay a mortgage & plan for a future savings, medical bills & am supposed to pay into pension from that too.

Many hard working struggling families can no longer afford to heat their homes properly ; and are constantly one emergency away from a financial crisis.

Sort out the tax cheats, dole cheats, black Market economy, governmental waste & squandering if our tax monies (eg e200k free years salary for all exiting consultants the year they retire-WTF-how many HHCharges is that per consultant) .

Stop screwing the same few citizens who financially contribute & pay for everything & get your house in order.

So your gripe is with the Public Sector Unions it would seem, rather than the government. Most of the opposition would appear to be in favour of MORE social protection, rather than less.

JimiTime

OMD wrote: »

Sorting out tax cheats would surely include those who don't pay the household charge/tax or do you want to limit it to all tax cheats except people like you?

I wonder how long it takes before certain people change their tune from 'tax cheat', to warranted protest. It is nothing short of irritating to see the citizenry turn on each other while Leinster House continues to ride the gravy train! It seems that most people acknowledge this, yet still insist that people saying 'enough' are nothing but cheats and gougers! Seriously!

We are in the mess we're in, so I agree with being pragmatic, and not becoming socialists for the sake of it. However, the first step of healing this mess, and getting people to pull in behind things is leadership. When people are telling you to pay more and more, while themselves taking exorbitant fee's from that same tax pot, they must be stopped! When that is done, THEN we can insist on others pulling in line. The property tax can actually be a negotiating tool for the country's citizens. Lets stop turning on our neighbour, and tell Leinster House that they need to lead by example. I know I wont be standing by those refuse to pay if Leinster House reduces CONSIDERABLY, their salaries, and shows that IT is as serious about the financial crisis as their rhetoric suggests! While they continue to ride the gravy train, we have every right to question whatever charges they levy on us without being accused of being cheats and gougers!

And by the way, I include all the socialists and lefties in this. All their protests about this, they all have an opportunity to lead by example too and cutting their own salaries. I could see that being a very effective method of pressurising the government. Though I suspect they are enjoying the gravy train a bit themselves!

Head The Wall

ncdadam wrote: »

But the HHC isn't 'across the board' is it, it's only for people who were foolish enough to provide the roof over their head themselves.

That's a ridiculous assertion to make. I was under the illusion that when I pay rent I am providing a roof over my head. It is a tax on an asset same as with motor tax.

JustAThought wrote: »

For two weeks out if every four, I work for free for the government. I pay with direct tax, health tax, facilities taxes & stealth taxes over 50% of my salary to the government.
Enough is enough.

50% eh, could you break that down for us? The max rate is just over 40% and thats only on a portion of wages

Sleepy

JimiTime wrote: »

Fair enough, but can you at least empathise with it? We can surely all separate the difference between justice and law. If our government enacted a law tomorrow to hand over all muslims for extradition to Guantanamo we'd surely not call defying it 'abdication of our legal obligations'. There is an abuse of power going on in this state, and some people are protesting it. Even if we disagree, I really do feel we should be empathising. I certainly see no grounds for delighting in the extortion type methods such powers employ, and also no grounds for calling otherwise tax compliant citizens socially irresponsible.

No, in this instance I'm afraid I can't empathise because of the expected outcomes:

If Mary refuses to pay her tax, the government will have to find that elsewhere and we all know that the easiest way for them to get that money is through raising income tax. So Sean will pay more of a tax that damages the economy to make up the gap left by all the Mary's not paying a tax that's good for the stabilisation of our economy.

I empathise with the rage driving the actions as I feel that exact same rage. I cannot empathise with the actions of those and wouldn't bat an eyelid if we shot TD's espousing non-payment of this tax for treason (the list of those I'd personally join the firing squad to remove from our society has grown year on year I'm afraid to say. I think the only one I'd take genuine delight in killing would be Ahern though...).

JimiTime

Welease wrote: »

And it's equally sad that some citizens continually expect to recieve the benefits offered by society but refuse to pay their fair share (which still doesn't cover the financial defecit that these services create.. thereby creating an even bigger problem for future generations)...

Whatever your view on paying the HHC, 'Fairness' is so far from the topic. There is nothing fair about having to pay for the gambling of private banks. There is nothing fair about the public having to pick up the slack for incompetent government etc. I realise we have to be pragmatic about the solutions, but this whole thing is rooted in unfairness, so to appeal to fairness is a fools errand in relation to people paying.

Head The Wall

JimiTime wrote: »

Whatever your view on paying the HHC, 'Fairness' is so far from the topic. There is nothing fair about having to pay for the gambling of private banks. There is nothing fair about the public having to pick up the slack for incompetent government etc. I realise we have to be pragmatic about the solutions, but this whole thing is rooted in unfairness, so to appeal to fairness is a fools errand in relation to people paying.

The public voted in this incompetent government

Welease

JimiTime wrote: »

Whatever your view on paying the HHC, 'Fairness' is so far from the topic. There is nothing fair about having to pay for the gambling of private banks. There is nothing fair about the public having to pick up the slack for incompetent government etc. I realise we have to be pragmatic about the solutions, but this whole thing is rooted in unfairness, so to appeal to fairness is a fools errand in relation to people paying.

Does it matter that the bulk of our yearly defecit has little to do with private banks or bailouts????

We spend a considerable more each year delivering services than we collect in taxes... It's that simple!... If people want these services, then they need to pay more taxes..

fishy fishy

to me it sounds like hi-jacking the poorer in society who depend on a college grant - in favor of the rich who doesn't.

result: Education for the rich, degradation for the working class. Nice move Labour.

JimiTime

Head The Wall wrote: »

The public voted in this incompetent government

TBH, there is no competent alternatives, as there is no stock in pre-election promises. Whats citizen to do? Well one thing it can do, is express itself to those in power whoever they are and hold them to account. It doesn't have to be, 'ok heres 5 years, do whatever you want!'

JimiTime

Welease wrote: »

Does it matter that the bulk of our yearly defecit has little to do with private banks or bailouts????

We spend a considerable more each year delivering services than we collect in taxes... It's that simple!... If people want these services, then they need to pay more taxes..

These taxes etc are to do with the financial crisis brought on by the banking crash etc, nothing else. Any other point, is a topic for another thread.

Welease

JimiTime wrote: »

These taxes etc are to do with the financial crisis brought on by the banking crash etc, nothing else. Any other point, is a topic for another thread.

Really? Care to link to a credible source for that statement?

HHC and other taxes being raised are to cope with our ever increased defecit.. That deficit is a component of multiple financial issues far wider than just the banking system.

Black Smoke

bbam wrote: »

I hear on the radio thismorning that Clare Co Council are holding payment of any 3rd level grants until proof of payment of the household charge is produced.

What a brilliant idea.

You want access to public funding, great. Show us you have contributed your bit to the latest public funding initiave and away you go.

It's a two way street. I'm sure now that they have led the way there will be other councils with incentive schemes to get it collected. Pure Brilliance, up the Banner !

Anyone any other ideas,
Next childrens allowance payment? , sure, just send in a copy of your receipt for the household charge first. Thank you !

I agree with you. Clare county council, no doubt, spends it's income very wisely indeed :cool: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/council-officials-sent-on-10000-harvard-course-3160448.html

maccored

beeno67 wrote: »

So, how many families cannot afford 27c a day? Exclude all those with waivers, and how many do you reckon? is bugger all not a fair estimate? Not the ones who don't want to pay, not the ones who "are sick and tired of bailing out the banks", the ones who actually cannot afford 27c a day.
About 40% of households have not paid. The belief that these cannot afford to pay is horse**** of the highest order.

Theres plenty of familes who dont have any money to spare. Dont try and pretend there isnt. It isnt about the 40% who havent paid ... its the people within that who rely on grants to educate their children (ie, the next generation of workers), who cant afford the €100 household charge and who now mightnt get a grant. end result, poorer kids dont get a college education. And you call that democracy?

creedp

fishy fishy wrote: »

to me it sounds like hi-jacking the poorer in society who depend on a college grant - in favor of the rich who doesn't.

result: Education for the rich, degradation for the working class. Nice move Labour.

In fairness if you were being supplied a service/goods by someone who owed you money would you say Ah sure I'll pay you in full and you can pay me whevever your ready! Im not surprised the Co Co's are trying this.

The broader issue of fairness is a seperate matter!

beeno67

maccored wrote: »

Theres plenty of familes who dont have any money to spare. Dont try and pretend there isnt. It isnt about the 40% who havent paid ... its the people within that who rely on grants to educate their children (ie, the next generation of workers), who cant afford the €100 household charge and who now mightnt get a grant. end result, poorer kids dont get a college education. And you call that democracy?

Ok. So of that 40% who haven't paid, how many cannot afford 27c a day. The answer is still bugger all.

This issue has been hijacked by politicians purely for their gain. It has nothing to do with less well off people. If the dole was going to be cut by €2 a week, which would effect the unemployed to a far greater extent than this property charge would anyone care? Not really. Yes there would be phone calls to Joe Duffy and a bit of huffing and puffing in the Dail but no one would really give a dam.
If children's allowance was going to be cut by €4 a month per child, again costing the average family more than this household charge, the same thing would happen.
However, a property tax allows left wing politicians to use it to gain support for themselves. Politicians talking about going to jail rather than pay property tax! Would they go to jail to stop a cut in dole or children's allowance? Would they fcuk. VAT rises, petrol increases, electricity & gas price rises allcost the average person in this country more than this €100 a year charge, yet no one cared. Yes a few outraged voices for a day or two then nothing. Don't kid yourself and us that you/they are looking after the interests of less well off people. You/they are not.

ardmacha

Welease wrote: »

Really? Care to link to a credible source for that statement?

HHC and other taxes being raised are to cope with our ever increased defecit.. That deficit is a component of multiple financial issues far wider than just the banking system.

Actually the statement has some truth in it, these taxes etc are to do with the financial crisis brought on by the banking crash etc. But they have no to do with giving money to banks they have to do with replacing the tax revenue from boom activities like stamp duty and from people who are no longer working.

People have to realise that they cannot carry on as if the boom exists, and that includes paying the amount of tax they did in the boom. The continual reference to things being paid for already is not true and the idea that it all goes to banks is easily refuted by reference to the national accounts. This has to do with third level grants, if the government cut third level admissions even to 2008 levels or charged for them as our neighbours do, then there the whine would be just as loud.

crusher000

Root cause to all our economic woes , The Euro. Our politicians decided it was the right way to go. For a small economy like ours we should have stood for fiscal independence. The Euro is a failing project , The governments and powers that be in Brussels won't admit it and it's akin to keeping a relative on life support. The decision to turn off the machine isn't easy. Our politicians backed this project and they're all held to account wheter they were inpower or not.We always get the Vote Yes for Europe as it will reflect favorably for us. SH1T I say. The discussion on being part of the Euro hasn't been given the due time and care that is needed.

JimiTime

Allegedly Enda Kenny has said withholding grants in lieu of the HHC being paid is illegal, but they can request the info on if its been paid.
He said the council was:

“not entitled by law to reduce or withhold a portion of the third-level grant but as a matter of course it is entitled to as much information about the numbers who have paid the household charge as is required in law”.

That settles that.

Welease

ardmacha wrote: »

Actually the statement has some truth in it, these taxes etc are to do with the financial crisis brought on by the banking crash etc. But they have no to do with giving money to banks they have to do with replacing the tax revenue from boom activities like stamp duty and from people who are no longer working.

People have to realise that they cannot carry on as if the boom exists, and that includes paying the amount of tax they did in the boom. The continual reference to things being paid for already is not true and the idea that it all goes to banks is easily refuted by reference to the national accounts. This has to do with third level grants, if the government cut third level admissions even to 2008 levels or charged for them as our neighbours do, then there the whine would be just as loud.

I think you need to re-read the statement. The poster claimed the HHC charge was related to the banking crisis and "nothing else". It's a binary statement that can't be partially true, which is why I questioned it.

As you correctly state (and as I did) it does have an element of connection to the banking, it also has a connection to our deficit (which has a connection to the banking crisis also), but it also has a connection to waste, CPA costs, poor resource management, poor process, unsustainble tax base, social welfare/health costs, tax evasion etc etc etc.. Far more than just single issue (banking crisis) which the poster referred to..

The reason I raised this.. is because there is an ongoing attempt by many posters to reduce these issues down to a singular cause (the banking crisis), and therefore as they were not directly involved in the banking crisis absolve themselves from responsibility to pay these taxes. It's a flawed position, and in my opinion needs to be challenged..

JimiTime

Welease wrote: »

I think you need to re-read the statement. The poster claimed the HHC charge was related to the banking crisis and "nothing else". It's a binary statement that can't be partially true, which is why I questioned it.

As you correctly state (and as I did) it does have an element of connection to the banking, it also has a connection to our deficit (which has a connection to the banking crisis also), but it also has a connection to waste, CPA costs, poor resource management, poor process, unsustainble tax base, social welfare/health costs, tax evasion etc etc etc.. Far more than just single issue (banking crisis) which the poster referred to..

The reason I raised this.. is because there is an ongoing attempt by many posters to reduce these issues down to a singular cause (the banking crisis), and therefore as they were not directly involved in the banking crisis absolve themselves from responsibility to pay these taxes. It's a flawed position, and in my opinion needs to be challenged..

To quote me accurately:

These taxes etc are to do with the financial crisis brought on by the banking crash etc, nothing else.



Notice the terms 'Financial crisis' BROUGHT ON by the banking crash. Also note the 'etc'

Godge

JimiTime wrote: »

Allegedly Enda Kenny has said withholding grants in lieu of the HHC being paid is illegal, but they can request the info on if its been paid.
He said the council was:

“not entitled by law to reduce or withhold a portion of the third-level grant but as a matter of course it is entitled to as much information about the numbers who have paid the household charge as is required in law”.

That settles that.

Wouldn't be so sure that it is over.

Council asks for HHC information as part of application. Applicant has two choices - provide information or not provide information.

If the applicant refuses to provide information, the Council could decide to deem the application incomplete. In that case, they are not reducing or withholding a portion of the grant, they are awaiting a complete application before processing the application. That would be legal and the student would not get a grant.

If the applicant provides the information that they have not paid, I agree with Mr. Kenny that the Council cannot withhold the payment. However, they have then got the name and address of one of the people who has refused to pay the charge. When it goes to Court, part of the Council's case will be that this person won't pay his taxes but he is happy to take any grants available for his family. Would expect a judge to go hard on that householder.

Black Smoke

Clare county council palatial offices built in the boom for a mere €30million, has to be paid for by somebody:o http://mimoa.eu/projects/Ireland/Ennis/Clare%20County%20Hall

At the same time, they opened new offices in three other towns in the county:eek: That's some overhead imposed on the taxpayer.