Beech/Hornbeam hedge... not up to much!

kormak

Hi Folks,

Just wanted to run these concerns passed the experts!
I planted 70 beech & hornbeam hedges in November 2010. (1 month before one of the biggest freezes in decades!!)
For the most part they survived, with approx 10 plants dieing.
They're still growing 2 years later but are not up to much. I appreciate that beech hedging is a slow grower, but I get the feeling my plants are struggling somehow...
I bought the plants from Future Forests as 1-2' bare roots and planted 18" apart with a compost and manure mix.
I spread mulch down every so often to keep the weeds/grass at bay...
The ground in my garden is quite rocky and I came across a number of large boulders when planting the roots...
Some of the plants have a bit of foliage now, which you can see from the pics... but others are alive but practically leafless.
What are my next steps regarding this hedge?? do I sit wand wait... can I try and prune some of these to promote bushier plants and if so, when should I be doing this??
Appreciate any hints/tips and advice you can give me!!

Thanks

photos:

planetX

Beech is always a slow starter. When you say planted in compost and manure, do you mean that you mixed those with topsoil? If not that may be your problem.

paddy147

Compost,Manure,Grit.

Did you prune them back hard when you planted them

Did you also water them very regulary too??

A liquid feed every 6 weeks to 2 months aswell when its growing season

That hedging should be at least 4 feet high and well bushy at this stage after seasonal pruning.


PS-My girlfriend planted a load of bare root hornbeam in very last weekend of April 2010 and its absolutely flying.Didnt loose any of them and we have a lovely thick full hedge now....after aggressive prunning each year and looking after them too

planetX

paddy147 wrote: »

Compost,Manure,Grit.

I've found bareroot trees establish better in proper soil. Composts can be too light and dry quickly, save the manure for roses.
OP - it's probably just a matter of waiting until the root systems establish properly. Hopefully they'll take off next year.

kormak

planetX wrote: »

Beech is always a slow starter. When you say planted in compost and manure, do you mean that you mixed those with topsoil? If not that may be your problem.

They were planted in a compost & topsoil mix, with a small amount of manure thrown in.

kormak

paddy147 wrote: »

Compost,Manure,Grit.

Compost,Manure,Grit.

Did you prune them back hard when you planted them? Nope, I just popped them into the ground and left them. Why should I have?!
Did you also water them very regulary too?? during the summer months and during dry periods, I gave them a drop of water occasionally with some ferts mix.
A liquid feed every 6 weeks to 2 months aswell when its growing season

That hedging should be at least 4 feet high and well bushy at this stage after seasonal pruning. - Really?! I would have thought so too... when should I be pruning?

PS-My girlfriend planted a load of bare root hornbeam in very last weekend of April 2010 and its absolutely flying.Didnt loose any of them and we have a lovely thick full hedge now....after aggressive prunning each year and looking after them too

<

Northumbria

Wow, that's a bit of a let down. I've never liked beech hedges very much though - brown and dead-looking 1/3 of the year - no thanks.

Good native species to use are hawthorn (so long as you lay it every 20 years), holly and yew (although that one is very slow growing indeed).
With non-native species there is always cherry laurel - very fast growing, thick, evergreen and seems to love Britain. It also tolerates drought very well (handy since the ground immediately beneath it will never see rainfall ever again).



Oh, and if you ever plant Hawthorn do consider "Red Hawthorn". It's very beautiful to look at. In nature it occurs as a rare hybrid between two species of Hawthorn (Common Hawthorn which is found in both Britain and Ireland and Midland Hawthorn which is found in the English Midlands).
Their offspring (Crataegus × media) is very nice to look at and a few cultivated varieties such as 'Paul's scarlet' and 'Rubra Plena' are available. It does cost quite a bit more than normal Hawthorn though but a few mix in with normal hawthorn would be nice. There's a few around here.



[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_7D1MyJsmqe4/TYuyiSzaydI/AAAAAAAAb4w/qsD96dqLPvk/IMGP6930 Crataegus media 'Paul's Scarlet' - Głóg pośredni.JPG[/IMG]

[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_7D1MyJsmqe4/TYuySeieINI/AAAAAAAAb4s/Irg_kI-6kkY/s640/IMGP6929 Crataegus media 'Paul's Scarlet' - Głóg pośredni.JPG[/IMG]

Oldtree

I love beech hedges and yes the leaves can persist during most of the winter which can continue to give some privacy. It is an easy one to prune and I do mine (green and purple) with a sacutures (between Nov and Feb) as I am very particular about it.

With the leaves shrinking when browning they also let in an extra bit of light in winter, an important factor over here in the dark grey.

In my opinion a deciduous hedge should be considered here in Ireland, privacy in the summer and some extra light in in the winter.

Holly is interesting but very very slow and expensive, with a number of different varities available.

Yew is interesting but very slow and expensive, with yew being poisionous so care has to be taken with the disposal of trimmings.

Cherry Laurel is fast and requires a lot of maintainance when it settles in, lets in no extra light in winter and is also poisionous so care has to be taken with the disposal of trimmings.

While pauls scarlett is a lovely plant it is costly and I have seen a number fail here, I think it has somthing to do with the graft. I have grown one from a cutting so I am waiting to see how it gets on.

kormak

I had suggested Laurel to the wifey but it was a non-runner!!
funnilly enough ALL our neighbours have it... clearly suits the soil.
I am a big fan of beech and love it's variety of colour during the seasons.
Couple of houses nearby have very nice (tall & bushy) beech hedging and it looks superb IMO!

So anyway, I have to order approx. 12 more bare hedges to fill the gaps...
I'll probably go with hornbeam or maybe some hawthorn in there might be nice to mix it up even further?
We did not want to have a single species hedge and were advised that beech & hornbeam go well together... how would another species sit within these?!

Can anyone answer me on the pruning question? are they much too young right now? what time of year is best for Beech??

Thanks again...

kormak

Oldtree wrote: »

It is an easy one to prune and I do mine (green and purple) with a sacutures (between Nov and Feb) as I am very particular about it.

With the leaves shrinking when browning they also let in an extra bit of light in winter, an important factor over here in the dark grey.

do you think my hedging is too small for pruning yet?
If not, whats the best method to prune and get the best results the following season??

Oldtree

From the pictures it seems a bit small to start just yet as they havnt really began to bush out. Pruning usually is done about 5-6 inches before the point where you want the hedge face (top and side) to be, to allow the plant to bush out from that point.

What I did/do for planting is the following.

I do not make a traditional planting hole with compost etc, as the plant must get used to its location, with obvious exceptions. As most soils have sufficient nutrients for trees I dont add fertiliser when planting. Fertiliser can promote extention growth that is more prone to injury and disease. If you dig a hole and destroy the structure and texture of the soil then adding compost is only going to make it more difficult for the soil to recover said structure and texture, making the plant more susseptable to windthrow.

I use an irish spade to cut a square into the ground as I want to retain as much of the structure and texture of the soil as possible, an integral part of soil. When planting my bareroot hedging I do a as small as possible individual holes

Nothing can repair the structure and texture of the soil other than weathering and worm action, a shown in studies this can take up to 15 years to repair after damage like poaching by animals.

I start with larger bareroot plants called 1 to 120's, bought in bundles of 25, these are about 1 meter tall and have a good root system.

I cut out a small square of sod, keeping that intact by levering out from the windward side so any damage to soil kept on this side, i.e. Leaver sod out from opposite side that you intend to plant, less damage to the soil immediatly around the roots..

Orientate hole of square cut sod pointing a corner into prevaling wind direction and plant on the opposite side as trees lay down more roots on windward side naturally.

Scoop out remaining soil, prune top. Prune roots to fit as necessary as the tree will grow more roots on the prevaling wind side,

I prune back about a third on the top of the plant. this allows for a good reserve in the root system to nourish the reduced top of the plant while settleing in and to premote the plants bushiness by removing the apical dominance.

Place tree in corner of cut out square away from prevaling wind direction, replace loose soil and then sod, heal in around stem.

This method keeps most of the texture and structure of the surrounding soil intact and as sod is intact there are no wind rock problems.

Slit planting is also viable and quicker but only better in softer ground.

If planting from pots it would be better to do small individual holes as then the structure and texture of the surrounding soil will be intact and give a better medium to root into for support.

Northumbria

I had suggested Laurel to the wifey but it was a non-runner!!

Ah, too bad. It's very cheap, evergreen, nice to look at and easy and fast growing. I love the stuff, but it's no good if you want a wildlife habitat (unless you leave it to grow into trees - the flowers are good for insects).

funnilly enough ALL our neighbours have it... clearly suits the soil.
I am a big fan of beech and love it's variety of colour during the seasons.
Couple of houses nearby have very nice (tall & bushy) beech hedging and it looks superb IMO!

So anyway, I have to order approx. 12 more bare hedges to fill the gaps...
I'll probably go with hornbeam or maybe some hawthorn in there might be nice to mix it up even further?
We did not want to have a single species hedge and were advised that beech & hornbeam go well together... how would another species sit within these?!

Can anyone answer me on the pruning question? are they much too young right now? what time of year is best for Beech??

Thanks again...

Beech and Hornbeam grow together in Southern England and cast quite some shade. Holly is shade tolerant as is Cherry Laurel and would do fine with them.
Privet is always an option. It is evergreen and makes nice hedges and will feed insects if left to flower. The Japanese Garden Privet looks tidier than the European Common Privet.
I'm not sure what else you could put in really. Hornbeam and Beech are used together because they match up quite nicely - a hedge of beech, hornbeam and laurel would look a bit odd.

In conservation they put in the odd shrub to add diversity and wildlife value to the hedge. Often a hazel tree is planted and trimmed to stay as part of the hedge. It is nice to look at, provides hazelnuts and coppice poles if you manage it.
Allowing a few roses to grow in a hedge also breaks up the monoculture a bit too. There's native varieties but I'd be tempted to go for Rosa rugosa which is very tough, has nice flowers and very ornamental rose hips this time of year (like Christmas tree decorations almost).
Dogwoods are also used because the branches are quite ornamental in winter whilst they provide berries for the birds in much of the year. Siberian Dogwood (Cornus alba) has red branches and there's a orange-coloured version of the native Dogwood (Cornus Sanguinea or something like that).
Dogwoods are rather a boring, unnoticed plant until winter when the leaves fall off.


Siberian Dogwood (Cornus alba)


European Dogwood (Cornus sanguinea)


Rosa rugosa


Rosa rugosa


Rosa rugosa left to grow as a bush. It's not one of those stick-like, cultivated weaklings

If your interested in feeding the birds or having something pretty to look at then a Pyracantha or Cottoneaster could be put in it.

Here's a pyracantha hedge. This would have taken years to grow. I bet it's popular with the blackbirds though and I've seen smaller version of it here in England.



To get a lot of berries you could probably feed the hedge with liquid tomato food a few times each month.


So if I were you I'd leave it as a beech / hornbeam hedge but put in a few other plants to add interest.
Roses near the fence posts (tie them to them if they're weak), pyracantha in small gaps and dogwoods in the larger gaps. The dogwoods would blend in with the hornbeam in summer whilst the Roses would send up a few flowers through the leaves and the pyracantha would break it up a bit.
In winter the dogwood would be bare but very ornamental, as would the pyracantha. If you want hedgerow trees than Rowan is always a nice addition and it loves the cooler, wetter areas of these islands.

mossym

my 4 year old copper beech hedge has hit 10 feet and had to be chopped back, even at 2 years the tallest trees were far larger than the ones you have, so it looks to me like they are definitely struggling. mine were planted in rocky ground as well

the mulch you're putting down jut looks to be bark mulch, have you tried a decent mulch of farmyard manure to give them a decent bit of nutrients?

Oldtree

Privett no longer evergreen in this neck of the woods. Leaves drop off and buds are turning black, due to the cold/frost/hot-cold in the winter.

Dog rose doing splendidly this year with tons of hips and I can see the birds salivating already.

paddy147

You should prune them back the minute you plant them in bareroot form.

Its called "shoot to root" by some horticulturalists and it refers to prunning back hard and therefore allowing the roots system to stave off the initial shock and give the roots more energy and a better chance to settle in and find their way.

Hornbbeam should be pruned back carefullyeach summer,as it allows the hedge to establish is branch structure and gives a thick full hedge in later years.

Northumbria

mossym wrote: »

my 4 year old copper beech hedge has hit 10 feet and had to be chopped back, even at 2 years the tallest trees were far larger than the ones you have, so it looks to me like they are definitely struggling. mine were planted in rocky ground as well

the mulch you're putting down jut looks to be bark mulch, have you tried a decent mulch of farmyard manure to give them a decent bit of nutrients?

Nitrogen is the key to getting a plant to grow quicker. It's the wrong time of year to heavily fertilise plants now though. They should be left to "harden off", new growth now would be at risk from frost damage.

Oldtree

paddy147 wrote: »

You should prune them back the minute you plant them in bareroot form.

Its called "shoot to root" by some horticulturalists and it refers to prunning back hard and therefore allowing the roots system to stave off the initial shock and give the roots more energy and a better chance to settle in and find their way.

Hornbbeam should be pruned back carefullyeach summer,as it allows the hedge to establish is branch structure and gives a thick full hedge in later years.

I prune them back by about a third before I plant them, as if you remove more than a third there is a shock to the plant that can kill it. this is more noticable with smaller plants but not with the 1-120's that are large and seem to cope with the pruning no problem.

While both beech and hornbeam can be clipped in summer, the optimum time to purne trees in a hedge from is in mid winter november to february, Also when the leaves are off the plant it is easier to see the form of the hedge and to do exact cuts to shape the hedge. I also prefer the scene of drooping twigs coming off the hedge in summer, more waterfallish if you know what I mean.

After the initial pruning when planting I would only mildly prune the plants for the first couple of years allowing them to settle in, depending on where you want the hedge faces to be of course.

paddy147

Oldtree wrote: »

I prune them back by about a third before I plant them, as if you remove more than a third there is a shock to the plant that can kill it. this is more noticable with smaller plants but not with the 1-120's that are large and seem to cope with the pruning no problem.

While both beech and hornbeam can be clipped in summer, the optimum time to purne trees in a hedge from is in mid winter november to february, Also when the leaves are off the plant it is easier to see the form of the hedge and to do exact cuts to shape the hedge. I also prefer the scene of drooping twigs coming off the hedge in summer, more waterfallish if you know what I mean.

After the initial pruning when planting I would only mildly prune the plants for the first couple of years allowing them to settle in, depending on where you want the hedge faces to be of course.

We do it differently here,so we will agree to disagree.

Our method works fine for us and our hornbeam hedges show it too.Prunning in the summer means that the hedge is not starting up (spring) or shutting down (autumn) so the summer time is ideal to prune hornbeam ......(we had this debate and discussion before)

Regards.:)

Oldtree

yes we did indeed and while your hedge may be doing fine and it suits you to manage it that way, the optimum time to do pruning is mid winter ie the dormant season.

I can only give the best professional advice available and practice what I preach... and I know that pruning mid summer is secondary to mid winter therefore I give my own plants the best management care available, and advise my clients and posters here to do the same.

Why you would ignore and disagree with professional advice I don't know.

JJJJNR

I'm having a terrible time with this hedge, not sure what to do.. here's one side



And the other side...



I did post earlier this year and advise was to prune them which I've done but they look terrible now!

Any further advise, sorry for the hijack!..

Oldtree

your earlier post:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056654855

re read my advice, I didnt mention pruning the thin ones until they grow up. That is mentioned in a later post. You used weed killer, I hope you were careful about spray drift. The plants that were not doing well earlier looked like gonners and it appears they are. It was reasonable for looksee to suggest pruning them back as they may have responded to the pruning by shooting. They didnt.

i would suggest you replant bareroot later this year with larger plants 1-120's
look here for advice on how to plant.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056759776

JJJJNR

I guess they got a bit of weed killer!. I thought it would be ok too use it on the weeds around the base of the hedge, I've scraped a bit of bark from the trunks of the ones that look dead and they are still green? is that a good sign.?

Oldtree

If there is a bit of green under the bark then they are not dead, however they are not doing well and it would be better in the long run to replace them rather than to wast time persisting with them.

1-120's are 1 meter to 1.2 meters tall so would have an instant impact.

paddy147

Oldtree wrote: »

yes we did indeed and while your hedge may be doing fine and it suits you to manage it that way, the optimum time to do pruning is mid winter ie the dormant season.

I can only give the best professional advice available and practice what I preach... and I know that pruning mid summer is secondary to mid winter therefore I give my own plants the best management care available, and advise my clients and posters here to do the same.

Why you would ignore and disagree with professional advice I don't know.

My missus gives good professional advice too as shes inspects each job and the clients landscape and its location,as thats her job.


You have your way and she/we have her and our way.

Both ways are tried and tested and both ways work.It works well for where we live and our gardens.

I,ll leave it at that.:)

Oldtree

I have no doubt that your missis gives good advice, however to stop learning is to stagnate and i keep trying to learn more both from thinking about other peoples experiences that they have related to me and by my own corrections to my own mistakes thus my own best practice keeps improving. I dont do in another persons garden somthing that I would not do in my own thus giving the highest quality product that I can, adding value to my product.

I'm sure both you and your lovely missus would strive to do the same.

paddy147

Oldtree wrote: »

I have no doubt that your missis gives good advice, however to stop learning is to stagnate and i keep trying to learn more both from thinking about other peoples experiences that they have related to me and by my own corrections to my own mistakes thus my own best practice keeps improving. I dont do in another persons garden somthing that I would not do in my own thus giving the highest quality product that I can, adding value to my product.

I'm sure both you and your lovely missus would strive to do the same.

Likewize,my missus would not do anthing in a clients garden or commercial property that she didnt know works.

Shes vastly experienced and qualified too,and knows what shes doing.Her domestic and commercial clients are very heappy with her,her work ethic and her results,and especilly the aftercare service and site revisits to make sure the client is happy and likes their new settings/gardens.

Oldtree

You are missing the point. Are you saying the the lovely missus cannot improve or learn anything further?

paddy147

Oldtree wrote: »

You are missing the point. Are you saying the the lovely missus cannot improve or learn anything further?

You questioned myself and my missus about professional advice...so I replied to you with regards her professional advice,her credentials and her own clients being very happy with her work.




In reply to your post here now..........Life is allways about learning.

We (as in the human species) are allways learning,until the day we die.


I will will bid you a good evening and leave it at that now.

Regards.

Oldtree

Well I hope you learnt something today that you can take forward, such as the Optimum time for pruning!

paddy147

Oldtree,Im not falling for any of it (I know what you are playing at here).

Afaik my missus previously came on this gardening forum and debated this whole matter with you and she posted her experiences and links/reasons as to summer prunning.

Now you can continue here all you want,but Im not into this sort of posting

Have a good safe evening and Regards.

Oldtree

and I'm not into letting you away with your advice to posters here (your are not gardner by your on words) that I think is not the best advice going, without a challenge!