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School patronage

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Comments

  • #2


    I don't like this... For one thing, if the majority in an area say they want the Church to continue to run their schools, does the minority then continue to be disenfranchised? Or will a new school be built to accommodate them? (No...)

    And I'm not sure that mob rule is the way to go either. So what if the majority in an area want Catholic schools? The principle that the State shouldn't be establishing schools that advance a particular religious (or indeed political, fiscal, etc.) view remains fair regardless of whether Maude Flanders wants to outsource her children's spiritual development.


  • #2


    As long as its not shown that a change in patronage will end up costing people money via taxes and that their kids will not be disadvantaged then I suspect most will go for it.


  • #2


    Fantastic. Nothing says "progressive" like a good ol' bit of segregation.

    And I look forward to Irish parents pulling a "census" on it again, despite having not stepped foot in a church since little Sneachta was christened.


  • #2


    Dave! wrote: »
    I don't like this... For one thing, if the majority in an area say they want the Church to continue to run their schools, does the minority then continue to be disenfranchised? Or will a new school be built to accommodate them? (No...)

    And I'm not sure that mob rule is the way to go either. So what if the majority in an area want Catholic schools? The principle that the State shouldn't be establishing schools that advance a particular religious (or indeed political, fiscal, etc.) view remains fair regardless of whether Maude Flanders wants to outsource her children's spiritual development.
    +1

    1. Do you agree that all parents should have the right to send their children to a local school whose ethos matches their own?

    or

    2. Do you think that the the Catholic Church should relinquish all patronage of state funded schools?

    I imagine that many people would answer yes to 1 and no to 2 (unfortunately). I am not saying that either of these questions would be a good one to ask, just that this topic is so complex that it will be almost impossible to obtain accurate useful information from a single survey.

    Also I don't see how you can ask parents to choose between RCC patronage and some other patronage unless they have had experience of both different models. How can they be expected to make an informed decision?


  • #2


    Also I don't see how you can ask parents to choose between RCC patronage and some other patronage unless they have had experience of both different models. How can they be expected to make an informed decision?
    I'd expect them to do unto others what they'd like to see done unto themselves. Well, I would expect them to do that, only I'm not that naive.


  • #2


    After a bit of googling, I believe that I have found the source for this article

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CDQQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.education.ie%2Fen%2FPress-Events%2FConferences%2FPatronage-and-Pluralism-in-the-Primary-Sector%2FThe-Forum-on-Patronage-and-Pluralism-in-the-Primary-Sector-Report-of-the-Forum%25E2%2580%2599s-Advisory-Group.pdf&ei=M11YULSnHMnDhAfRtYGIAQ&usg=AFQjCNGMSIoVO0koIklR67DkE2Ymrn_42g&sig2=nb8AG6NTaRknntCKU3Nx5g

    Its a 174 page report which seems to contain many of the recommendations as outlined in the indo article. For anyone (like me) who is facing the prospect of kids starting primary school in the next 5 years, it will make for interesting reading I think


  • #2


    I'm still not getting why the hell parents don't send their kids to Sunday School if they so desperately want them to be Catholic.


  • #2


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    I'm still not getting why the hell parents don't send their kids to Sunday School if they so desperately want them to be Catholic.

    Why do it yourself when you can farm the 'work' out to someone else, that's why.

    Anyway most of the school system is as it is simply due to inertia, people (parents) just need to be motivated to change the system.


  • #2


    Why do it yourself when you can farm the 'work' out to someone else, that's way.

    That reminds me, didn't a recent poll say the majority of parents wanted the Catholic Church not to have patronage over primary schools, but still wanted the religious sacraments to be thought during school hours? The lazy gits!


  • #2


    Galvasean wrote: »
    That reminds me, didn't a recent poll say the majority of parents wanted the Catholic Church not to have patronage over primary schools, but still wanted the religious sacraments to be thought during school hours? The lazy gits!

    Majority prefers schools not run by church

    Three out of four parents [surveyed] would prefer to send children to primary schools run by patron bodies other than churches, according to a poll. However, a majority of parents surveyed still wants religion taught in school.

    Asked about when religious instruction and preparation for the sacraments should be taught, 67 per cent of parents with dependent children who took part in the poll said they wanted the teaching to take place during the school day

    :rolleyes:


  • #2


    Dave! wrote: »
    I don't like this... For one thing, if the majority in an area say they want the Church to continue to run their schools, does the minority then continue to be disenfranchised? Or will a new school be built to accommodate them? (No...)

    And I'm not sure that mob rule is the way to go either. So what if the majority in an area want Catholic schools? The principle that the State shouldn't be establishing schools that advance a particular religious (or indeed political, fiscal, etc.) view remains fair regardless of whether Maude Flanders wants to outsource her children's spiritual development.

    +1.

    Democracy ? - They can fck off with such talk

    The bondholders did not have to put up with such nonsense.


  • #2


    well here are the surveys http://education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2012-Press-Releases/PR12-10-22.html

    not much reaction yet

    fr michael drumm and the iona institute complaining about patronage survey http://t.co/qYnEmmiY

    why would parents with 0.1-5yr kids not input their school preference?


  • #2
    Dave! wrote: »

    And I'm not sure that mob rule is the way to go either. So what if the majority in an area want Catholic schools?.


    All schools should be religion free. We have threads here saying some schools are wasting 5 hours a week on religious studies. It's 2012 FFS.

    There is no need to go into the dangers of catholicism here, this excellent forum is jam packed with all their abuse's.

    If you are a parent and you value religion then off you go to Sunday school.


  • #2


    Dades wrote: »
    Fantastic. Nothing says "progressive" like a good ol' bit of segregation.

    And I look forward to Irish parents pulling a "census" on it again, despite having not stepped foot in a church since little Sneachta was christened.

    Who would be so cruel as to give their child that name? :rolleyes:


  • #2


    Who would be so cruel as to give their child that name? :rolleyes:

    What about 'colleen' - for feck sake, couldn't people come up with anything better than 'girl'?


  • #2


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    What about 'colleen' - for feck sake, couldn't people come up with anything better than 'girl'?
    My cat's name is 'Cat', which I think suits it quite well


  • #2


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    What about 'colleen' - for feck sake, couldn't people come up with anything better than 'girl'?

    I always complain about that too :)


  • #2


    Dave! wrote: »
    My cat's name is 'Cat', which I think suits it quite well

    My cat's name was Duck.


  • #2


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    My cat's name was Duck.
    Well that's not an appropriate name at all.


  • #2


    Dave! wrote: »
    Well that's not an appropriate name at all.

    Perhaps not but it was worth it when son aged 6 drew a picture of the cat and informed his teacher it was 'Duck'. Tooks days to clear that misunderstanding up :D


  • #2


    Who would be so cruel as to give their child that name? :rolleyes:

    Probably someone with no baggage about the Irish language? :pac::rolleyes: It's not a name for anything except snow, but it must be ok to call your child snow, if you want? I know an English couple who called their child Uisce. He has since changed his name.


  • #2


    Obliq wrote: »
    I know an English couple who called their child Uisce. He has since changed his name.

    To Beatha?


    :pac:


    I'll get me coat......


  • #2


    Fintan O'Toole on the school patronage issue.
    The Minister’s approach to primary school patronage is inimical to the idea of a republic, and will be disastrous

    DON’T LAUGH, but suppose for a moment we were actually in the business of building a new republic from scratch. What’s the first thing you’d put down on the “to do” list?

    Is it not this rather obvious idea: educate all your children together. A republic starts with the basic idea that citizens of all faiths and none share a common public life and civic values.

    It’s hardly radical to think that these things should be learned from the moment children enter into a formal relationship with the public world – in the primary school system. Or that the most powerful way in which they learn them is by actually being together.

    This is why Ruairí Quinn’s approach to the question of the patronage of primary schools is so disastrous. At one level, he deserves credit for at least acknowledging a problem that has been ignored by pusillanimous politicians for decades.

    The cowardice of his predecessors has left us with a huge mismatch between, on the one hand, a population whose religious and spiritual beliefs are increasingly diverse and, on the other, a primary school system that has remained remarkably static, with 90 per cent of schools still under the patronage of the Catholic Church.

    We now have nearly 15,000 primary school-age children who are atheists, agnostics or have no religion; 8,300 Muslim children in the same age group and thousands more who belong to religions that had a minimal presence in Ireland even a decade ago – Orthodox, Lutheran, Pentecostal and Apostolic Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, pantheists and Baha’i.

    Because many of these faith groups are younger than the general population, the likelihood is that we will, over the next decade, have about 30,000 primary school children who are not members of the traditionally recognised churches. And this does not include those who are members of the latter but whose parents would prefer them to be educated in schools outside of church control.

    It is depressing to live in a country where the mere recognition of such an obvious reality constitutes political courage, but at least Ruairí Quinn has not continued the disgraceful tradition of denial.

    If we had an infinite amount of money, we could, in theory, build and staff more and more schools to cater for this diversity in a largely unchanged system. But we already have a very high number of primary schools per head of population and, of course, we don’t have money to throw at the problem.

    Instead, we have an opportunity to ask ourselves a basic question: what kind of primary education system is best for a diverse 21st-century republic? But this isn’t just a question about education – schools are at the heart of their communities and the way we think about them is part of the way we think about democracy.

    Ruairí Quinn, though, seems not to be thinking about democracy at all. His strategy has two parts. The first consists of doing nothing much for 1,700 schools that are the only ones in their area.

    If you live in a rural area with just one primary school – tough. There will be nice talk about respect and diversity but the bottom line is that children from non-Catholic families will still have to attend schools where the Catholic ethos is pervasive and where all teachers must at least pretend to be practising Catholics.

    All members of the boards of management will still be required by the deeds of trust to “manage the school in accordance with the doctrines, practices and traditions of the Roman Catholic Church” and to “make and keep themselves familiar with the ethos of the Roman Catholic Church” – active and explicit discrimination against non-Catholic parents who will still be in effect debarred from serving on boards of management. Ruairí Quinn has made it plain that for these schools “transfer of patronage is not an option”.

    The assumption, apparently, is that rural parents are all happy with the existing regime. But a survey by the conservative Iona Institute found “very little difference” between rural and urban parents in this regard, with a slight majority favouring schools that teach either all religions or none over “a Catholic school”.

    The second part of Ruairí Quinn’s strategy is for town folk, who are deemed fit to make a choice: surveys of parents of school-age children to determine whether they would like their schools to be denominational, interdenominational or multidenominational.

    This is very timid: as the advisory group on patronage put it, if the process “resulted in one school being transferred [from church control] in each of the areas selected, this would amount to less than 50 schools, out of a total of 3,169 primary schools”.

    But the long-term result of the strategy would, in any case, be a formalised apartheid, with children roughly sorted into different faith groups.

    Everything about this strategy is inimical to the idea of a republic. It discriminates openly between people in rural and urban areas and envisages a future in which children are segregated from the age of four. Are these really the lessons we have learned from conflict and collapse?

    Source

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #2


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    My cat's name was Duck.
    I kind liked the guy who named his dog "deefer":

    Passerby: What's "deefer"?
    Owner: "D" for "dog".


  • #2


    robindch wrote: »
    I kind liked the guy who named his dog "deefer":

    Passerby: What's "deefer"?
    Owner: "D" for "dog".

    Dorothy Parker named her parrot Onan. When asked why she gestured at his cage and pointed out that he spilled his seed upon the ground. This is, imho, genius and I am eaten with jealousy that I didn't think of that - I called my budgie Batman...:o


  • #2


    I called my finest cockerel Dildo :eek:


  • #2


    Obliq wrote: »
    I called my finest cockerel Dildo :eek:

    I had a rubber plant called Johnnie. :o


  • #2


    I had a house plant called Robert for about 5 years.

    Now, ahem, everyone back on topic!


  • #2


    Dades wrote: »
    I had a house plant called Robert for about 5 years.

    Now, ahem, everyone back on topic!

    (sorry Dades)

    On topic.

    One of the things that concerns me is this part highlighted by Fintan
    The second part of Ruairí Quinn’s strategy is for town folk, who are deemed fit to make a choice: surveys of parents of school-age children to determine whether they would like their schools to be denominational, interdenominational or multidenominational.

    If I am reading this correctly - those who are currently parents of school age children get to decide the ethos of the school for future generations - reminds me of the Peace of Westphalia when the rulers of States got to decide if theirs was a Catholic State or a Lutheran State with no allowance for the beliefs of individuals.

    Also reminds me of when my nephew's primary school did a survey in the parish (an affluent one) and got support for the building of a swimming school for the pupils - then asked sister for a donation of 6 k even though her son was in 6th class and would never get to dip a toe in the water of this new pool. The school couldn't understand her objection.

    Given that most of these parents currently being asked to decide the future ethos of 'our' schools would have appeared to tick the 'Catholic' box on the census it is within the realms of possibility most would do likewise on this issue - even if they have not set foot inside a church bar weddings, christenings and funerals for decades.

    It is, imho, a wishy washy lets not upset the apple cart bit of drivel that refuses to acknowledge that no State school should be allowed to favour one religion over another by engaging in a bit of pseudo-democratic public consultation.


  • #2


    very good article, fintan is stronger in this area then most, but the 15,000 thousands number is irrelevant, im sure there more then that who'd actually want secular schools, better not to use that number


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