School patronage

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

http://petitions.oireachtas.ie/online_petitions.nsf/Published_Petitions_EN/39A327A993B3068780257F010039834F?OpenDocument&type=published+petition&lang=EN&r=0.58609903105211 could take a while

Looks like its the guy from the TV...

PopePalpatine wrote: »

It's being discussed on The Last Word right now between Paddy Monaghan and...Fidelma Healy-Eames..

Peregrinus

expectationlost wrote: »

you never fail repeat what i already said in a more long winded way

No. You said that the government didn't want to address curriculum issues in this Bill. I said that attempts to do so by the opposition would be ruled out of order [by the Ceann Comhairle], which is not the same thing.

Absolam

Peregrinus wrote: »

I don't think there's a fundamental problem with interposing the Minister. State agencies (and even private individuals) are constantly in the position of having to make, and implement, explicit or implicit decisions about the constitutional rights of others. Anyone aggrieved has recourse to the courts. The SC is the final arbiter, not the first arbiter. Inserting the Minister into the process doesn't usurp the SC's function, unless there is an attempt also to prohibit recourse to the courts for those aggrieved by the Minister's decision.
What constitutional right are school patrons exercising? Rights with regard to education are very firmly placed by the Constitution in the hands of parents, not patrons. I suppose you could argue that the patrons are exercising the right of association - choosing who may, and who may not, participate in the school - but I think there's a general acceptance that this right may often come below other rights in the constitutional hierarchy, in the event of a clash.

Orion wrote: »

That's not true. The SC just ruled that the legislation was not repugnant to the constitution. They don't give an opinion on whether the legislation was necessary or required by the constitution. Legislation can be amended without recourse to the SC. There is no constitutional right to this religious exemption - the constitution just doesn't say it can't exist.

All true.... my argument obviously needs a good deal more work

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

Yes, on closer inspection of the actual wording used in the report I agree;
I have no idea what they mean by "other alternative means". Does anybody have any thoughts on what it could mean?

I'm not sure that even the HREC has any very clear idea of what it might mean. I suspect they included it to underline that exceptions really should be exceptional; any claim that a particular school needs an exception should be scrutinized, and not simply accepted as a matter of routine.

recedite wrote: »

At its heart, it is a fudge which is the direct result of recognising (wrongly IMO) that the state has a duty to financially support religious denominational education. There is indeed a constitutional obligation to respect and protect denominational education as an expression of parental choice. That obligation can be fulfilled by allowing private denominational schools to exist and to practice their discrimination.

I think we may be in danger of conflating two issues here. First, should the state support denominational schools? Secondly, should schools (denominational or otherwise) be allowed to adopt religion as a criterion for admission? The HREC is only addressing the latter question.

It's entirely possible to have a denominational school which doesn't use religion as a criterion for admission. The case in favour of denominational schools isn't just that the Constitution smiles on them; there is a value in diversity, and in enabling minority communties to persist and thrive through support for their community institutions. I don't know about you, but I think Ireland will be a poorer place if we adopt policies leading to the closure of, e.g., Jewish schools.

The question is whether religious preference in admission is necessary to support diversity, and to sustain minority communities. Note that the question only arises if the law would otherwise forbid the use of religion as an admission criterion. Other forms of diversity in the system - e.g. the provision of Montessori schools, Steiner schools, Francophone schools, or whatever - don't need an exception because their is no law to prevent them from preferring applicants whose parents are supportive of the school's distinctive characteristic. But if we ban the use of religion as a criterion, then schools catering to minority religions may face an existential threat. Hence the need for a mechanism for allowing exceptions.

Also worth noting that banning the use of religion as an admission criterion does nothing at all to reduce Catholic patronage of schools. Even if the ban is implemented and no exceptions are given, most Catholic schools will still be largely populated by children from families who identify as Catholic. Arguably, since one of the principal sources of grievance will be removed, this measure could actually sustain the continuation of the present predominance of Catholic patronage, since the pressure to change things will be lessened.

expectationlost

Peregrinus wrote: »

No. You said that the government didn't want to address curriculum issues in this Bill. I said that attempts to do so by the opposition would be ruled out of order [by the Ceann Comhairle], which is not the same thing.

I wasn't talking about the opposition I was talking about the IHREC, and yes you just repeated what I said, not touching that in this bill means not tackling it in this bill.

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think we may be in danger of conflating two issues here. First, should the state support denominational schools? Secondly, should schools (denominational or otherwise) be allowed to adopt religion as a criterion for admission? The HREC is only addressing the latter question.

I agree the HREC is only looking at the latter question in isolation, which is why their proposed solution can only be a fudge, at best. There is a degree of overlap between the two questions, such that a clean solution can only be found by addressing as a whole the issue of whether state support for religion is appropriate in any form.
For example, imagine a publicly funded school with a Scientology ethos, which gave no official priority to the kids of Scientologists. It wouldn't need a discriminatory admissions policy, because the school would be unsuitable for most citizens. Yet those same citizens would be compelled to support it, through their taxes.

Peregrinus wrote: »

.. there is a value in diversity, and in enabling minority communities to persist and thrive through support for their community institutions. I don't know about you, but I think Ireland will be a poorer place if we adopt policies leading to the closure of, e.g., Jewish schools.

Ireland would be a poorer place without its Jewish community, but the fact is, that community has been shrinking steadily as the younger ones emigrate to Israel and the USA.
Ireland would be better off without Jewish schools IMO, and maybe the Jewish community themselves would as well. We don't provide Jews with special Jewish hospitals to attend when they are sick. When you segregate a community (or they segregate themselves) they become "different" to other citizens. They become conditioned to existing within a homogenous bubble of their own "community". It is perfectly logical for kids growing up under these conditions want to move to Tel Aviv or Brooklyn where the same bubble is bigger. In other words, if the state funds the segregation of communities, it reduces the "cohesion" of its own citizens. In extreme cases people can grow up here, but feel more comfortable as citizens of foreign religious states such as Israel or Islamic State.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Also worth noting that banning the use of religion as an admission criterion does nothing at all to reduce Catholic patronage of schools. Even if the ban is implemented and no exceptions are given, most Catholic schools will still be largely populated by children from families who identify as Catholic. Arguably, since one of the principal sources of grievance will be removed, this measure could actually sustain the continuation of the present predominance of Catholic patronage, since the pressure to change things will be lessened.

I agree 100%.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Other forms of diversity in the system - e.g. the provision of Montessori schools, Steiner schools, Francophone schools, or whatever - don't need an exception because their is no law to prevent them from preferring applicants whose parents are supportive of the school's distinctive characteristic.

There is also a specific exemption to equality legislation allowed in relation to Irish language ethos schools, but that is outside the subject matter of this thread.
Regarding other special interest schools, the Constitution protects the right of parents to opt out of the state funded system and establish their own private schools. For example this Steiner school states on its webpage
"The school is dependent on fees to cover its running costs."

A school which aims to indoctrinate kids into a particular religion is also protected "existentially" by the constitution, but should be privately funded in the same way too.
BTW I'm not suggesting there should be only one type of state funded school. There is plenty of scope for diversity within a criteria for state funding which specifies that a school would be politically and religiously neutral, and not be unsuitable (by any reasonable definition) for any particular class of citizens.

Peregrinus

expectationlost wrote: »

I wasn't talking about the opposition I was talking about the IHREC, and yes you just repeated what I said, not touching that in this bill means not tackling it in this bill.

I was talking about the opposition. Therefore, I was not just repeating what you said. I was adding to it, pointing out an implication that you had not addressed.

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

Ireland would be a poorer place without its Jewish community, but the fact is, that community has been shrinking steadily as the younger ones emigrate to Israel and the USA.
Ireland would be better off without Jewish schools IMO, and maybe the Jewish community themselves would as well. We don't provide Jews with special Jewish hospitals to attend when they are sick. When you segregate a community (or they segregate themselves) they become "different" to other citizens . . .

I have to point out, rec, that being "different to other citizens" is exactly what diversity means. And if you want to erode differences between citizens, and to campaing for an entirely homogenous society you're at liberty to do so, but you should expect cultural, ethnic, religious etc minorities to consider such policies prejudiced, and to see themselves as the victims of that prejudice.

recedite wrote: »

Regarding other special interest schools, the Constitution protects the right of parents to opt out of the state funded system and establish their own private schools . . . BTW I'm not suggesting there should be only one type of state funded school. There is plenty of scope for diversity within a criteria for state funding which specifies that a school would be politically and religiously neutral, and not be unsuitable (by any reasonable definition) for any particular class of citizens.

Where "reasonable" means "reasaonable to recedite"?

I quarrel with your assumption that every school must "not unsuitable . . . for any particular class of citizens". I don't see why this is necessary. Provided my child has access to a suitable school, I don't see that it is necessary or desirable that every other school in the country should also be suitable for her. How does she suffer if there exist schools which are not suitable for her, and long as their exist schools which are?

My child is at an all-girls school, and that's because I happen to think it's best for her. Under your scheme, I could only send her to an all-girls school if I happened to be especially rich. I struggle to see that the rights of other citizens are jeopardised in any way by the current arrangement, under which the (Australian) taxpayer funds girls' schools, boys' schools and co-educational schools, and parents choose which is best for their children.

And the same goes for parents who desire a religious education or a secular education. As long as people who want a secular education have reasonable access to it, I do not see that their rights are imperilled by those who want a religious education having similar access.

Bristolscale7

The board of a second-level school in Limerick is to consider whether a first-year pupil can be allowed to opt out of studying religion.

A request from the student's father was rejected last week by the principal of Castletroy College.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1123/748507-schools-religion/

Question about the junior cert/leaving cert. I had a niece do religion for the Leaving Cert and based on the notes I saw her studying it seemed like she was being tested primarily on christian dogma.

Cabaal

Utter crap that he is being told its a mandatory,

Student could just go into the class and refuse to participate in the class and any assigned homework, they have the backing of their parents and the constitution when it comes to having the ability to NOT do it

Bristolscale7

recedite wrote: »

Regarding other special interest schools, the Constitution protects the right of parents to opt out of the state funded system and establish their own private schools. For example this Steiner school states on its webpage
"The school is dependent on fees to cover its running costs."

This in sum. Jewish, Islamic, Catholic, or what not...let them build and fund their own schools if they want a religious education.

expectationlost

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1123/748507-schools-religion/

Question about the junior cert/leaving cert. I had a niece do religion for the Leaving Cert and based on the notes I saw her studying it seemed like she was being tested primarily on christian dogma.

this is a etb school (which catholic bishop co-patron)

here's the syllabus https://www.curriculumonline.ie/getmedia/c0c1f394-79c8-4455-bea5-c9e014a9945d/JCSEC22_religion_syllabus.pdf definitly from a christian perspective

3. The Junior Certificate Programme aims to
contribute to the moral and spiritual development of the young person

from that and the questions https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1056167677747989&id=776079519&substory_index=7

lazygal

What on earth is spiritual development? I think my children get along fine with no one worrying about their spirits.

rainbow kirby

Discussion of atheism and agnosticism appears to be for higher level only as well... :rolleyes:

expectationlost

Parents have right to say they want their child exempt from religion class - Education Minister http://www.newstalk.com/Parents-have-right-to-say-they-want-their-child-exempt-from-religion-class--Education-Minister I don't think the Dept of Ed and the NCCA would actually agree with that. The school and NCCA and Dept of ED says its its just a Junior Cert subject not religious instruction

Parents can take children ‘out of religious education’ - O’Sullivan
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/parents-can-take-children-out-of-religious-education-o-sullivan-1.2440783

Referring to the case at Castletroy College Ms O’Sullivan added: “I understand the course in question is a general course about religion in general but even at that parents do have rights in this regard.”

lazygal

Parents are allowed opt their children out of any subject. As they are the primary educators, after all. I suspect a lot of schools are worried about a raft of opting out if parents insist that their children opt out of any subject, religion or anything else.

expectationlost

lazygal wrote: »

Parents are allowed opt their children out of any subject. As they are the primary educators, after all. I suspect a lot of schools are worried about a raft of opting out if parents insist that their children opt out of any subject, religion or anything else.

really? opt of maths english etc?

lazygal

expectationlost wrote: »

really? opt of maths english etc?

If it conflicts with the beliefs of the parents, my understanding is that they can. I've heard of Muslim parents opting female children out of PE, which would be a core subject. When I was in school a Jewish girl opted out of home ec, which the rest of us had to do in fourth year as part of the timetable, because of issues around kosher foods.

http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/school-religion-primary-secondary-opting-out/

Section 30 (2) -(e) of the Education Act 1998 permits you to opt your child out of any subject that is contrary to the conscience of the parent of the student or in the case of a student who has reached the age of 18 years, the student. This section of the Education Act 1998 does not refer to religion classes in particular so you can opt your child out of any subject that is against your conscience and in any publicly funded school. Schools are not obliged to deliver the state curriculum in a neutral and objective manner, in practice this means that it is impossible to opt your children out of the elements of religion that are integrated into the state curriculum and that are part of the school day.

Cabaal

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Discussion of atheism and agnosticism appears to be for higher level only as well... :rolleyes:

Of course,
You can't have stupid people thinking for themselves! They need to be controlled....like sheep. After all, the lord is their shepherd.

Cabaal

expectationlost wrote: »

really? opt of maths english etc?

You can opt out of Irish!
I know, cause I did.

Opted out and took up Art instead which was far better benefit to me and I could do honours and get the point towards LC. Not doing Irish was never a negative to me.

So if a person can opt out of Irish then they sure as hell can opt out of religion,

lazygal

I'll opt out my children of a subject if I feel they would benefit. Irish would be first on the list, if they didn't need it for college courses. In hindsight I should have opted out of PE. It was a giant waste of time and I did plenty of exercise after school. Five years of makey up basketball and volleyball wasn't exactly a jam packed programme.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Cabaal

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I didn't opt out of religion, I just asked questions.
By third year the teacher had enough of me and kicked me out, after that I stopped going and nobody ever questions me about it. I used to use the time to study or attend the Art classes I had picked up instead of Irish.

The school in question in Limerick are just being awkward for the sake of being awkward, its not skin of their nose to allow the kid to opt out with parental consent.

magicbastarder

lazygal wrote: »

What on earth is spiritual development?

sounds like whiskey distilling to me. i'm game for that.

expectationlost

Cabaal wrote: »

You can opt out of Irish!
I know, cause I did.

Opted out and took up Art instead which was far better benefit to me and I could do honours and get the point towards LC. Not doing Irish was never a negative to me.

So if a person can opt out of Irish then they sure as hell can opt out of religion,

i didn't mention irish

expectationlost

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

how long ago was that, what kind of school was it?

robindch

lazygal wrote: »

What on earth is spiritual development?

Developing the understanding that they have to fund and support the church.

expectationlost

lazygal wrote: »

If it conflicts with the beliefs of the parents, my understanding is that they can. I've heard of Muslim parents opting female children out of PE, which would be a core subject. When I was in school a Jewish girl opted out of home ec, which the rest of us had to do in fourth year as part of the timetable, because of issues around kosher foods.

http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/school-religion-primary-secondary-opting-out/

Section 30 (2) -(e) of the Education Act 1998 permits you to opt your child out of any subject that is contrary to the conscience of the parent of the student or in the case of a student who has reached the age of 18 years, the student. This section of the Education Act 1998 does not refer to religion classes in particular so you can opt your child out of any subject that is against your conscience and in any publicly funded school. Schools are not obliged to deliver the state curriculum in a neutral and objective manner, in practice this means that it is impossible to opt your children out of the elements of religion that are integrated into the state curriculum and that are part of the school day.

surely its law to complete a course in english and maths in ireland, whether you complete it home or elsewhere

lazygal

expectationlost wrote: »

surely its law to complete a course in english and maths in ireland, whether you complete it home or elsewhere

No, the law is a minimum standard of education. Mainly required subjects are because of third level course requirements, especially after fifth year. Parents are the primary educators in Ireland.

Cabaal

expectationlost wrote: »

i didn't mention irish

I know, but I just wanted to give an example of how somebody can opt out of what the vast majority of people in Ireland would see as a "core" subject.

My point being if you can opt out of Irish you can sure as hell opt a child out of religion if you see fit,