School patronage

Bristolscale7

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I saw this on another site and got a bit of a land:

http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Events/Advancing-School-Autonomy-in-Ireland/Advancing-School-Autonomy-in-Ireland.html



"A school can identify a specific cohort within the community as its target client base and develop admissions and other policies to support provision for that cohort." So in other words, schools could decide to target the who they want and to suggest children not fitting those criteria go to somewhere "more suited to their needs." This is a consultation document, so please make your feelings known to the DES. So much for equality.

Ah, was wondering when Ireland when give the u.s. charter school model a try. Grim.

looksee

This is a bit alarming. I would like to think I understood the thinking here; could we start a new thread to discuss this particular issue - I realise it is not unconnected with patronage but specific analysis of the discussion document proposals would be very useful.

expectationlost

just cme to post this Minister O’Sullivan welcomes Consultation on School Autonomy - http://education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2015-Press-Releases/PR15-12-04.html#sthash.gDEk5F7R.dpuf government further abdicating responsibility for education


pfg

Empowering Schools to Improve Standards page 38

We will give greater freedom and autonomy to school principals and boards to raise
educational standards by devolving more responsibility locally, with greater freedom to
allocate and manage staff with required flexibility and to delegate management
responsibilities to teachers as school priorities require.

expectationlost

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I saw this on another site and got a bit of a land:

http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Events/Advancing-School-Autonomy-in-Ireland/Advancing-School-Autonomy-in-Ireland.html



"A school can identify a specific cohort within the community as its target client base and develop admissions and other policies to support provision for that cohort." So in other words, schools could decide to target the who they want and to suggest children not fitting those criteria go to somewhere "more suited to their needs." This is a consultation document, so please make your feelings known to the DES. So much for equality.

try to quote the whole thing if you are going to quote

Student focus: Other than where there is a legislative requirement to do so, fully autonomous schools are not constrained in terms of what students they may choose to admit or not to admit. A school can identify a specific cohort within the community as its target client base and develop admissions and other policies to support provision for that cohort.

http://education.ie/en/Press-Events/Events/Advancing-School-Autonomy-in-Ireland/School-Autonomy-Research-Paper.pdf to me this looks like gov trying to set up their own kind of free schools/academys like the UK, in the context of the defferral of the admissions bill

robindch

expectationlost wrote: »

[...] looks like gov trying to set up their own kind of free schools/academys like the UK[...]

Looks to me like the government is trying to avoid responsibility for discrimination by creating semi-autonomous schools with minimal central oversight.

recedite

robindch wrote: »

Looks to me like the government is trying to avoid responsibility for discrimination by creating semi-autonomous schools with minimal central oversight.

... and responsibility for everything else, including child abuse. They got a shock last year when the ECHR overturned the Irish court rulings. Previously the official state position was;

The State denied any and all responsibility for the acts of the teacher.

Its all part of this legalistic fiction that the state "provides for" schools but does not "provide" them, is not the employer of the teachers, and is not responsible for any discrimination or abuse that may occur within the schools.

Absolam

Cabaal wrote: »

Catholics when it comes to our school system mean what the Irish Catholic Church believes. after all they are the patrons of the schools and they control the ethos.

Well I know there are various Catholic denominations that are patrons, and Bishops that are patrons. I'm not so sure that the Irish Catholic Church is a patron, or that being a patron or controlling ethos is particularly relevant to deciding who is a good Catholic. But if you're saying its up to Catholcis rather than anti-theists to decide who is a good Catholic, then I think we're in broad agreement there.

Cabaal wrote: »

This is why for example the catholic church didn't lobby to remove the rule to allow them to legally sack gay or lesbian teachers even though many local people had no issues with it and were outraged by such backwardness.

. I'm not sure what that has to do with deciding who is a good Catholic, but I think I'd be inclined to consider their rationale for their actions rather than your own attribution....

Cabaal wrote: »

We know for a fact that although the Irish catholic church controls our schools, it by no stretch of the imagination reflects the views held by the majority of the Irish public over the age of 18. Despite this they continue to have control,

. Which isn't to say all those people over 18 couldn't get out there and open their own competing schools and gain control if people want them to.

Cabaal wrote: »

Why does it matter? Why the whataboutery?

What whataboutery? You made an assertion, and I'm trying to determine the extent to which this problem exists.

Cabaal wrote: »

Regardless of if its 30 or 3000 its wrong and discrimination, end of.
Can you somehow justify it as ok in your mind if its only 3?
Obviously we know its not 3, its more, but if it was for the sake of argument would you be fine with a child not getting a school place based on their parents different beliefs or non-beliefs?

You see.... I'm inclined to think it's none. I don't think there is a five year old who doesn't have a school place purely because of religious discrimination. I think there are some who find it more difficult to get the place they want, generally in a denominational school, but I don't think there are any children not receiving an education based on their parents different beliefs or non beliefs.

Cabaal wrote: »

Your not supposed to feel bad at all, I don't expect you to feel bad for one second.

In which case you don't need to enquire as to how warm and fuzzy your ideas make me feel....

Cabaal wrote: »

Its obvious you have no real problem with children being discriminated against based on their religious faith or none faith of their parents. Otherwise you wouldn't be fear making silly attempts to justify the continued discrimination at the tax payer expense.
I'm just curious if somehow you get some weird kick out of it,

It's certainly obvious that you need to ascribe some sort of motivation to people who disagree with your ideas. Perhaps if you spent more thought on my posts rather than myself, you could muster a better argument?

Hotblack Desiato

Nearly 1,500 parents appeal decisions to refuse school entry

‘Bogus’ use of Constitution allows religious bias in schools

JPNelsforearm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Nearly 1,500 parents appeal decisions to refuse school entry

Whats going unspoken in this is the "upward curve" in admissions briefly referenced in that piece. In one of the other articles they mentioned removing the "privilege" of getting a preference due to parents/siblings attending the school.

Hotblack Desiato

The siblings rule isn't a privilege, it's a rare small concession to harassed parents.

Of course, this being Ireland, in the vast majority of schools it's no use anyway unless your kids are all the same sex :rolleyes:

The 'not enough places' thing is bunk and a favourite lie (I can say lie when he's lying, right?) of David Quinn and co. Kids do, eventually, find a school place somewhere. The question is who gets to go where? It's minority religion and non-religious kids who will be much more likely to be seriously inconvenienced by having to go to a school outside their area. Meanwhile baptised RC kids can jump ahead of them into schools in other areas if they wish (e.g. snob value) as well as being first in the queue in the schools in their own area.

robindch

Seems the Christian Brothers - or more properly, their rebranded corporate entity, the ERST - played legal and financial hardball with the Department of Education over the Basin Street site which Educate Together recently received, but which the ERST will recover control in 2024:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/catholic-trust-got-concessions-from-state-before-divesting-school-1.2469154

looksee

A CPO is a legal function that allows
certain statutory bodies which need
to take land or property to do so
without the consent of the owner. The
compulsory acquisition of land takes
place in Ireland to allow a public
infrastructure project to go ahead for the
common good.

https://www.scsi.ie/documents/get_lob?id=402&field=file

Definition of infrastructure

The basic physical and organizational structures and facilities (e.g. buildings, roads, power supplies) needed for the operation of a society or enterprise:
the social and economic infrastructure of a country

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/infrastructure

recedite

robindch wrote: »

Seems the Christian Brothers - or more properly, their rebranded corporate entity, the ERST - played legal and financial hardball ..
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/catholic-trust-got-concessions-from-state-before-divesting-school-1.2469154

Interesting quote there...

The department also had to surrender any historical claim over the property, which had been held in trust since 1959

But as there has been a school there for 193 years (since about 1822) it seems reasonable to assume the Christian Brothers never owned the property at all, but took control of it in 1959 during the Archbishop McQuaid era.
It looks like it may have been one of those early schools set up with British government assistance and placed under the control of an educational trust, with the intention of providing multi-denominational education?

If that is so, then ET would be the natural successor, and therefore should rightfully inherit control of the property anyway, not ERST.

recedite

I see the Edmund Rice trust chief negotiator is going to be appointed president of the High Court. So probably not much point in trying to argue over the legal title of the school building. Go Opus dei.

Bristolscale7

recedite wrote: »

I see the Edmund Rice trust chief negotiator is going to be appointed president of the High Court. So probably not much point in trying to argue over the legal title of the school building. Go Opus dei.

Help us EU courts; you are our only hope.
Help us Eu courts; you are our only hope.

expectationlost

recedite wrote: »

Interesting quote there...

The department also had to surrender any historical claim over the property, which had been held in trust since 1959 http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/catholic-trust-got-concessions-from-state-before-divesting-school-1.2469154

But as there has been a school there for 193 years (since about 1822) it seems reasonable to assume the Christian Brothers never owned the property at all, but took control of it in 1959 during the Archbishop McQuaid era.
It looks like it may have been one of those early schools set up with British government assistance and placed under the control of an educational trust, with the intention of providing multi-denominational education?

If that is so, then ET would be the natural successor, and therefore should rightfully inherit control of the property anyway, not ERST.

held in trust by whom?

byhookorbycrook

ET isn't the only multi-denom patron. Many Gaelscoileanna are mutli-d too.

lazygal

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

ET isn't the only multi-denom patron. Many Gaelscoileanna are mutli-d too.

What percentage?

Hotblack Desiato

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

ET isn't the only multi-denom patron. Many Gaelscoileanna are mutli-d too.

Oh yeah, that's inclusive :rolleyes:

PopePalpatine

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Oh yeah, that's inclusive :rolleyes:

IIRC, doesn't Shrap/Lazygal have a Gaelscoil in their area ruled by an ultramontanist?

lazygal

PopePalpatine wrote: »

IIRC, doesn't Shrap/Lazygal have a Gaelscoil in their area ruled by an ultramontanist?

Yup. The one near us seems to have a completely arbitrary enrollment policy and is the most catholic of all the schools. Probably the least inclusive of all overall. And for extra inclusiveness, all business with the principal, including any inquiries about policies, is only conducted through Irish, which must really help those with no Irish whatsoever feel welcome.

IIRC byhoookorbycrook teaches in a gaelscoil. Maybe (s)he could tell us what its enrollment policy and ethos is, and how inclusive it is.

Shrap

PopePalpatine wrote: »

IIRC, doesn't Shrap/Lazygal have a Gaelscoil in their area ruled by an ultramontanist?

Good memory you have there! The Gaelscoil in my area (about 40 mins from me, but still my area in rural terms ) seems to take all comers - at least, it took about a dozen of my English friend's kids. Must look up their policy actually...

Edit: It's multi-denominational. Here's a handy website for Gaelscoileanna that shows the patronage for all of them when you click on each county. http://www.gaelscoileanna.ie/schools/primary-schools/?lang=en

All four of the Clare schools are Catholic :rolleyes: Ditto with Limerick (rolls eyes again), but Galway has THREE multi-denominational ones! Mind you, they have twice as many gaelscoils as anywhere else, seemingly. *Correction* Galway has 51 gaelscoileanna, three of which are multi-denominational. Rest are Catholic.

byhookorbycrook

lazygal wrote: »

. Probably the least inclusive of all overall. And for extra inclusiveness, all business with the principal, including any inquiries about policies, is only conducted through Irish, which must really help those with no Irish whatsoever feel welcome.

IIRC byhoookorbycrook teaches in a gaelscoil. Maybe (s)he could tell us what its enrollment policy and ethos is, and how inclusive it is.

We speak Irish to those who can understand and feel comfortable using it. We have 12 nationalities that I can think of off the top of my head in the school. Our policy is siblings and 1st come, 1st served. We are under Catholic patronage but we do not use religion as part of our admission policy at all, despite being hugely oversubscribed.

We have children of many different religions and none.

Cabaal

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

We are under Catholic patronage but we do not use religion as part of our admission policy at all,

So to your knowledge its not used, BUT is it part of the enrollment policy anyway?

I've talked to plenty of teachers who claim they don't give priority to Catholics, but yet their schools still have "The applicant is Catholic" as part of the policy.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

byhookorbycrook

Cabaal wrote: »

So to your knowledge its not used, BUT is it part of the enrollment policy anyway?

I've talked to plenty of teachers who claim they don't give priority to Catholics, but yet their schools still have "The applicant is Catholic" as part of the policy.

No, it is not taken to account in any shape or form.

byhookorbycrook

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I have never heard of something like that, the multi-d Gaelscoileanna have their own patron , the "Foras Patrúnachta"

lazygal

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

No, it is not taken to account in any shape or form.

So why is the school Catholic?

Shrap

lazygal wrote: »

So why is the school Catholic?

Superb question. Nail, meet head.

byhookorbycrook

lazygal wrote: »

So why is the school Catholic?

Because it was established a long time ago and the parent body haven't asked for it to be changed.