School patronage

lazygal

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Because it was established a long time ago and the parent body haven't asked for it to be changed.

Wow. It's always been this way so we'll keep it this way. Says a lot about teaching and education in Ireland.

RainyDay

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Because it was established a long time ago and the parent body haven't asked for it to be changed.

But it's not at the whim of the parent body, right? Are you saying that if the parent body were to ask for the change tomorrow, that it would be immediately changed?

recedite

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Because it was established a long time ago and the parent body haven't asked for it to be changed.

Who is the chairman of the BOM? I'm guessing its a priest.
Who interviews prospective teachers?

The parent body does not control the ethos or the policies of a school. The patron does, via the BOM.

expectationlost

Choosing Segregation? The Implications of School Choice* http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/housesoftheoireachtas/libraryresearch/spotlights/SpotlightSchoolchoice290915_101712.pdf Oireachtas Library & Research Service Publications Published September informed committee report?

Cabaal

We know which side the Daily Fail is taking in all this, so as well as publishing outright offensive stories about refugee's and muslims they now want to side with the Catholic church

Good bedfellows I guess

expectationlost

expectationlost wrote: »

wondering whether removal of rule 68 is cosmetic change emma o'kelly says on rte that its stil cited even when setting up the community national shcools http://podcast.rasset.ie/podcasts/audio/2015/1209/20151209_rteradio1-newsatone-archaicreg_c20895414_20895431_232_.mp3

dug out the foi docs re State gave commitments to Catholic Church on education
the emma o'kelly dug up

http://www.rte.ie/news/special-reports/2012/0328/315388-educationfoi/ http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0329/foirecord41.pdf

Shrap

expectationlost wrote: »

dug out the foi docs re State gave commitments to Catholic Church on education


http://www.rte.ie/news/special-reports/2012/0328/315388-educationfoi/ http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0329/foirecord41.pdf

Absolutely fascinating. Thanks very much for this expectationlost! This Community National Schools (CNS) debacle of segregation (causing the only animosity I see there) and the Dept. of Ed. caving in to the demands from the Catholic Church (re communion & confirmation during school hrs) go to show exactly where we stand, eh? Still under the thumb :mad:

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

dug out the foi docs re State gave commitments to Catholic Church on education


http://www.rte.ie/news/special-reports/2012/0328/315388-educationfoi/ http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0329/foirecord41.pdf

The CNS Community National Schools that are being rolled out at the moment are actually very similar to what was proposed by the RC Bishops back then. Religious segregation of pupils was built into the new model from the very start, and we can see the origins of that idea in this document.

The Dept of Education should have told the RC delegation at the time to go ahead with their co-patronage idea with the Church of Ireland. The state schools could then have been set up as fully inclusive non-denominational schools. The religion program would have been "religion and ethics" not "religious indoctrination". The same as the program they are now proposing for next year's national curriculum.

That way everyone's a winner. We would have new community schools free of unwanted indoctrination, and no discriminatory admission policies, and no segregation of pupils along ethno-religious lines during classes.

Meanwhile the children of dyed in the wool RC and protestant parents would get to mix with each other in inter-denominational faith schools. Surely that could only lead to good things for the future.

But no, Dept of Ed caved into these demands and now we have the model that the CPMSA wanted. A religion teacher trained and approved by the RCC will have to be hired to "look after the interests" of catholic children.
If it turns out anything like the VEC/ETB model they were hoping to emulate, there won't be sufficient resources to go any further than providing this majority faith formation, and the school becomes de facto an RC-lite school.

The Black Oil

Ronan Mullen's complaining about Labour's anti-Catholic bigotry re schools.

Meanwhile in the UK, David Cameron's been playing up the 'Britain is a Christian country' message over the last few years. His Education Secretary seems unhappy about those pesky atheists.

Nicky Morgan, the Education Secretary, has sidestepped a High Court ruling which found she unlawfully excluded atheism from the school curriculum.

A two year commission which found the UK is no longer a Christian country is also absent from the department's new guidance.

The new document says religious education should "reflect the fact that the religious traditions in Great Britain are, in the main, Christian."

It also said that "there is no obligation on any school to cover the teaching of non-religious views," instead saying this should be left to the wishes of parents and the school.

A spokesman for Ms Morgan said the measures sought to prevent a "creeping ratchet effect" wherein atheists tried to force schools to teach a humanist view of the world, according to the Daily Telegraph.

"The Government is determined to protect schools' freedom to set their own religious studies curriculum," said Ms Morgan in a press statement.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/schools-must-teach-that-britain-is-mainly-christian-and-need-not-cover-atheism-says-nicky-morgan-a6787951.html

MrPudding

The Black Oil wrote: »

Ronan Mullen's complaining about Labour's anti-Catholic bigotry re schools.

Meanwhile in the UK, David Cameron's been playing up the 'Britain is a Christian country' message over the last few years. His Education Secretary seems unhappy about those pesky atheists.

Hardly unexpected from an encangelical christian.

MrP

Hotblack Desiato

http://www.natcen.ac.uk/news-media/press-releases/2015/may/british-social-attitudes-church-of-england-decline-has-accelerated-in-past-decade/

42% isn't a "Christian country" Dave.

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

Choosing Segregation? The Implications of School Choice* http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/housesoftheoireachtas/libraryresearch/spotlights/SpotlightSchoolchoice290915_101712.pdf Oireachtas Library & Research Service Publications Published September informed committee report?

Some very interesting observations there, such as;

Multiple patronage and ethos as a basis for policy can lead to segregation and inequality in the education system. The objectives of admission policy should be equality and integration

and

In countries such as Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Korea, Norway and Switzerland, for instance,students are allocated places nearest their house and parents cannot choose a different public primary school

A whole host of different benefits would accrue to society; a better sense of community and social cohesion, equal opportunities, easy to provide free school buses, less traffic...
All that is required is for the state to provide secular public schools. Let people carry on with whatever religion they want outside of school.

There is a fallacy around that two sides exist in this debate, those who want the religious to retain their stranglehold of the education system, versus those who want ever more divestment and diversity of schools.

But IMO neither of these is desirable. The answer is already on show in places like Finland where best practice prevails, and there is no need to re-invent the wheel.

expectationlost

Minister again calls for Minister to do something

Minister calls for new laws for unbaptised pupils
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/minister-calls-for-new-laws-for-unbaptised-pupils-1.2478028

she said these rules would apply in the one-in-five cases of where schools are oversubscribed.

While it is too late to change the Act in the run-up to the general election, she said the plans would feature in the Labour Party’s election manifesto.

Ms O’Sullivan conceded that moves to divest religious schools of their patronage have been slow and held up partly by local resistance.

Under a new round of “reconfigurations”, she said areas rather than individual schools could be targeted, along with greater consolation of the wider community.

give up one school in an area and we'll give money to the rest?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/analysis-demand-for-school-equality-is-growing-1.2478019

expectationlost

The Black Oil wrote: »

Ronan Mullen's complaining about Labour's anti-Catholic bigotry re schools.

Meanwhile in the UK, David Cameron's been playing up the 'Britain is a Christian country' message over the last few years. His Education Secretary seems unhappy about those pesky atheists.

*cripes* Faith groups back move to protect religious education freedom https://www.gov.uk/government/news/faith-groups-back-move-to-protect-religious-education-freedom

statement from UK Education Secretary!

similar issue with our junior cert, really can't believe that a government set curriculum wont cover atheism/humanism properly, although haven't thoroughly read detail

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

Minister again calls for Minister to do something
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/minister-calls-for-new-laws-for-unbaptised-pupils-1.2478028

Its becoming farcical... Minister replies to Ministers calls by saying it is now too late to do anything. Has she been in the cave with Gollum for too long? Yes my precious, its much too late.

However, Ms O’Sullivan said legal advice she has received indicates that schools’ religious ethos would be protected if a majority of places were set aside for children on the basis of religion.
This could allow a significant minority of places – anything up to 49 per cent – to be set aside for children on the basis of their proximity to school rather than their religion...
I’m not saying denominational schools shouldn’t have their own religious faith taught during school time.They are entitled to do that, but we have a very diverse society now

Aha, so the Attorney General must have informed the Minister that up to a maximum of 49% of pupils per school can be enrolled in a school run according to the rules of a religious organisation that they don't agree with. Kids the school would prefer not to accept. And technically neither the parents nor the school will have any legal grounds to complain. What a master plan :rolleyes:

While it is too late to change the Act in the run-up to the general election, she said the plans would feature in the Labour Party’s election manifesto.

Hotblack Desiato

expectationlost wrote: »

Minister again calls for Minister to do something

Minister calls for new laws for unbaptised pupils
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/minister-calls-for-new-laws-for-unbaptised-pupils-1.2478028
give up one school in an area and we'll give money to the rest?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/analysis-demand-for-school-equality-is-growing-1.2478019

If only someone would appoint Jan O'Sullivan to Cabinet. Think of what she could do.

expectationlost

Labour's solution to education issues is to build another 100 private schools http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/labour-to-promise-100-nonfaith-schools-34322994.html

byhookorbycrook

recedite wrote: »

Who is the chairman of the BOM? I'm guessing its a priest.
Who interviews prospective teachers?

The parent body does not control the ethos or the policies of a school. The patron does, via the BOM.

Our chairperson has never been a priest. Our Patron does not set our policies, "via the BOM" as the school based/ parent members of the BOM have a majority, even allowing for the patron's nomineee.

ETA to get back to Jan, it seems like Leo, she thinks that by throwing out things into the public domain people will believe that, once re-elected , she would bring them through. All sizzle, no sausage.

Bristolscale7

Priest is a patron rep but rarely the chair. Would require too much work. Admission policies must be approved by the patron

recedite

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Our Patron does not set our policies, "via the BOM" as the school based/ parent members of the BOM have a majority, even allowing for the patron's nomineee

Well, would it be fair to say the patron was "well represented" on the interview board when the principal got appointed, and then later the school principal and the patron rep appointed other teachers. And so a template was created such that the "school based" members of the BOM had a certain ethos, and combined with the patrons nominee will always outnumber the parent reps?

lazygal

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Our chairperson has never been a priest. Our Patron does not set our policies, "via the BOM" as the school based/ parent members of the BOM have a majority, even allowing for the patron's nomineee.

ETA to get back to Jan, it seems like Leo, she thinks that by throwing out things into the public domain people will believe that, once re-elected , she would bring them through. All sizzle, no sausage.

But your school is Catholic. Why does it need to be Catholic at all if the patron has no role at all?

expectationlost

Sir, – Contrary to the view that removing rule 68 of the Rules for National Schools 1965 is largely a symbolic move, it could have quite strong effects.

Rule 69, part 2, requires that no child shall receive, nor be present at, any religious instruction of which her or his parents or guardians do not approve; and that the periods of formal religious instruction shall be fixed so as to facilitate the withdrawal of pupils to whom the previous sentence applies. Rule 69, part 5, requires that these periods be indicated on the timetable. Rule 68 contradicts at least part of rule 69, and thus after rule 68 is removed, the rules will require national schools to keep what was religious instruction in 1965 (now called faith formation) separate from education that is secular (“secular” appears in rule 56).

The Minister for Education will send a circular letter to every national school to announce that rule 68 is cancelled. In this letter she could draw attention to the requirements of rule 69, parts 2 and 5.

From 1965 until 2015, various ministers for education have sent circular letters to national schools, and it is possible that some circulars have modified some of the 1965 rules. If there has been a circular letter that has reduced the effects of rule 69, the Minister could send a circular letter cancelling that, and restoring rule 69 to its original state. Removing rule 68 and making schools obey rule 69 would move national schools quite a way toward being fair to all children who attend, toward ceasing discrimination on the grounds of religion and respecting all children’s rights on freedom of religion. – Yours, etc,

PETER O’HARA

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/national-schools-and-faith-formation-1.2482365 how does he know detail of Ministers plan before everyone else?


the rules for ref http://www.into.ie/ROI/InfoforTeachers/Circulars/RulesforNationalSchools1965/RulesforNationalSchools_2.pdf


keep an eye on http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/

Shrap

expectationlost wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/national-schools-and-faith-formation-1.2482365 how he know detail of Ministers plan before everyone else?

Maybe because he's been working closely with Jan O'Sullivan on the issues? Seems he is of the Mid West Humanists and hasn't been giving the minister much peace, fair play to him Or so it said in the first article that his name popped up in, from the Tipperary Republican no less......
http://tipperary.republican/index.php/2015/12/28/battle-for-equality-in-education-warming-up/

Are we gaining traction? Would be nice to think so.

Nodin

fresh dispatch from HQ....

"The Primate of All-Ireland and Archbishop of Armagh, Dr Eamon Martin, has said there should be a more plural offering of schools in Ireland.
Speaking on RTÉ's Countrywide Dr Martin said it was very rare that a school will use the criterion of baptism."

"He acknowledged that some people in Ireland would like a completely secular school with no influence of religion, adding "I sometimes wonder is that not in itself an ideology."
http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0102/757349-dr-eamon-martin-baptism/

expectationlost

Nodin wrote: »

fresh dispatch from HQ....

"The Primate of All-Ireland and Archbishop of Armagh, Dr Eamon Martin, has said there should be a more plural offering of schools in Ireland.
Speaking on RTÉ's Countrywide Dr Martin said it was very rare that a school will use the criterion of baptism."

"He acknowledged that some people in Ireland would like a completely secular school with no influence of religion, adding "I sometimes wonder is that not in itself an ideology."
http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0102/757349-dr-eamon-martin-baptism/

really badly writen article, here he is actually talking about Northern Ireland

"It is not even on the books for a Catholic school and I think that could easily be removed, that criterion for Baptism.

He said he didn't accept that all Catholic schools should be closed

who said there should be, listen even he doesn't suggest all catholics could be closed in any scenario
Speaking on RTÉ's Countrywide http://www.rte.ie/radio1/countrywide/podcasts/#2066151

expectationlost

Voteforeducation http://www.voteforequality.ie/?a=letters

expectationlost

Shrap wrote: »

Maybe because he's been working closely with Jan O'Sullivan on the issues? Seems he is of the Mid West Humanists and hasn't been giving the minister much peace, fair play to him Or so it said in the first article that his name popped up in, from the Tipperary Republican no less......
http://tipperary.republican/index.php/2015/12/28/battle-for-equality-in-education-warming-up/

Are we gaining traction? Would be nice to think so.

he's writing about the removal of Rule 68 as if its already happened

RainyDay

This consultation might be of interest;

http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Events/Advancing-School-Autonomy-in-Ireland/Advancing-School-Autonomy-in-Ireland.html

recedite

http://www.voteforequality.ie/
Not many TD's have responded so far.

Huntergonzo

recedite wrote: »

http://www.voteforequality.ie/
Not many TD's have responded so far.

Sad to see that, well if they're not going to take the time to answer important human rights questions like that, I'm not going to bother taking the time to head for the ballot box.

Honestly I'm struggling to convince myself that voting in General Elections actually matters, I think we're just feeding the populist monster. Over the next few months all we're going to hear from the Government is fanciful claims of how they saved the country, and the opposition are going to make me even more sick because of two words that are going to be repeated ad nauseam = Irish Water.

All the while important (but non populist) issues will be swept under the carpet and paid lip service, it's very frustrating to say the least.