School patronage

Hotblack Desiato

Please, please vote. Even if it's for the candidate(s) you hate the least, rather than ones you like, please vote.

Low turnout is how the likes of Ronan Mullen get elected.

Shrap

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Please, please vote. Even if it's for the candidate(s) you hate the least, rather than ones you like, please vote.

Low turnout is how the likes of Ronan Mullen get elected.

Oh I'll vote right enough. Never haven't, but I seriously struggled to find anyone to vote for last time. Co. Clare isn't over-endowed with alternatives to the portly men in grey suits who all say the same thing.

Huntergonzo

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Please, please vote. Even if it's for the candidate(s) you hate the least, rather than ones you like, please vote.

Low turnout is how the likes of Ronan Mullen get elected.

You see I have to admit, voting for the 'least worst' oprion so to speak is something I'm really not in favour of. I'm not happy with all the populist bullsh1t that politicians spew out or the electorate for encouraging this behaviour by only voting for politicians that tell lies (why lie at all if it didn't work), the whole system just seems very silly to me at times.

Ps, if we had a Liberal Party in Ireland that supported secularism then I certainly would be interested but no such party exists sadly, so again I'm struggling to build up any interest.

Hopefully Atheist Ireland sends out questions to the politicians before the next election like they did in 2011 and at least then we can see what their stated responses are (if they bother to respond at all). I'm in Meath East and sadly I have to say I was very disappointed the last time, either no responses at all (FF) or vague catch-all waffle with zero substance (the other parties and independents).

MrPudding

Huntergonzo wrote: »

You see I have to admit, voting for the 'least worst' oprion so to speak is something I'm really not in favour of. I'm not happy with all the populist bullsh1t that politicians spew out or the electorate for encouraging this behaviour by only voting for politicians that tell lies (why lie at all if it didn't work), the whole system just seems very silly to me at times.

Ps, if we had a Liberal Party in Ireland that supported secularism then I certainly would be interested but no such party exists sadly, so again I'm struggling to build up any interest.

Hopefully Atheist Ireland sends out questions to the politicians before the next election like they did in 2011 and at least then we can see what their stated responses are (if they bother to respond at all). I'm in Meath East and sadly I have to say I was very disappointed the last time, either no responses at all (FF) or vague catch-all waffle with zero substance (the other parties and independents).

Well, at least you actually have a choice. I happen to live in the constituency of the speaker of the house (of Commons). There is a parliamentary convention that none of the main parties will out a candidate against the speaker, so I basically get a choice of a few single issue independents, the monster raving loony party, UKIP and maybe the greens. So basically I don't get a vote, and it pisses me off. IN the general election I spoiled my vote by writing a short essay on my ballot card explaining how upset I was at being disenfranchised and, as far as I was concerned, being excluded from the democratic process.

MrP

Hotblack Desiato

Shrap wrote: »

Oh I'll vote right enough. Never haven't, but I seriously struggled to find anyone to vote for last time. Co. Clare isn't over-endowed with alternatives to the portly men in grey suits who all say the same thing.

Huntergonzo wrote: »

I'm in Meath East and sadly I have to say I was very disappointed the last time, either no responses at all (FF) or vague catch-all waffle with zero substance (the other parties and independents).

This is where the bullshít localism of Irish politics comes into play, which means that anything other than the dominant mainstream view finds it hard to get any representation at all. A list system would fix this.

Huntergonzo

MrPudding wrote: »

Well, at least you actually have a choice. I happen to live in the constituency of the speaker of the house (of Commons). There is a parliamentary convention that none of the main parties will out a candidate against the speaker, so I basically get a choice of a few single issue independents, the monster raving loony party, UKIP and maybe the greens. So basically I don't get a vote, and it pisses me off. IN the general election I spoiled my vote by writing a short essay on my ballot card explaining how upset I was at being disenfranchised and, as far as I was concerned, being excluded from the democratic process.

MrP

That's not a great situation granted and you say I have choice and technically you're not wrong but choice only really matters to me when you actually have diverse and credible options. What good is choice when all you have is a bunch of generic liars with no intentions of making any serious changes or reforms? It's not really choice, it's as you were no matter who you pick and I'm fed up with it.

RainyDay

MrPudding wrote: »

the monster raving loony party, UKIP

How do you tell the difference?

pauldla

MrPudding wrote: »

Well, at least you actually have a choice. I happen to live in the constituency of the speaker of the house (of Commons). There is a parliamentary convention that none of the main parties will out a candidate against the speaker, so I basically get a choice of a few single issue independents, the monster raving loony party, UKIP and maybe the greens. So basically I don't get a vote, and it pisses me off. IN the general election I spoiled my vote by writing a short essay on my ballot card explaining how upset I was at being disenfranchised and, as far as I was concerned, being excluded from the democratic process.

MrP

Ballot card? Voting? I dream of such things...

Guys and gals, if you have a vote, use it.

recedite

A RC teacher who was "persuaded" to resign her teaching post in a CoI school for being the wrong religion and having a gay son has won her case in the Equality Tribunal.

.. she said the principal made a series of critical comments about her son’s sexual orientation, saying a “normal boy” would not spend an afternoon shopping for clothes. She said the principal also raised her son’s speech and attire at a valedictory service at a local secondary school. She told the tribunal he said her son’s pink blazer was not appropriate and questioned what kind of mother Ms Marron was to have a son like that...


...the principal criticised the behaviour of Catholics in church, commented on the negative effects of Catholics joining a local Church of Ireland secondary school and referred to Church of Ireland members as “our children” and the “right people”.
Ms Marron, a non-practising Catholic, said she felt repeatedly undermined by the principal and complained to the school in September 2013. The issues, however, were not dealt with properly by the school.


In its finding, the Equality Tribunal found as fact that the principal made the derogatory comments attributed to her by Ms Marron.

And all this in a publicly funded school where the principal and all the teachers are on the state payroll.

The Patron failed to deal with the situation, probably believing that he was entitled to uphold the ethos of the school. Which is actually an arguable legal point, but he is apparently smart enough to realise it would be foolish to argue it under the circumstances.

Unfortunately there is a legal mess out there, in which certain aspects of our constitution and legislation which are designed to protect religious privilege can be interpreted in a way to directly oppose certain other aspects which are designed to promote equality.
The law badly needs a revamp. But the bottom line is simple IMO; all publicly funded facilities should be required to treat all members of the public equally.

Hotblack Desiato

It's disturbing to think that there are still people with that sort of mindset out there educating kids, I feel sorry for kids in a school like that.

Hotblack Desiato

http://educationequality.ie/index.php/day-25-a-principals-story-anonymous/

The catholics-first rule (in Dublin diocese, at least) was brought in in 2004 - under Diarmuid Martin.

He was informed that this policy, in the context of increasing immigration in Dublin, was racist in its effect but he did not rescind it.

Now he talks about fairness and divestment (while achieving precisely nothing)

What a snake.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

recedite

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

http://educationequality.ie/index.php/day-25-a-principals-story-anonymous/

I have my doubts about that story. For one thing, I'm pretty sure there were discriminatory admission policies before 2004. Maybe not in some of the schools this guy had experience of, but that is not to say they did not exist.

Secondly he says that Loreto schools nationwide refused to participate in the discriminatory policy, but here is the enrolment policy from Loreto Rathfarham;

Our enrolment policy is such that we give precedent to:

• Catholic girls from the Parish of the Annunciation Rathfarnham (priority to oldest)
• Siblings of children already in the school (priority to oldest)
• Children of teachers presently in the parish schools and grandchildren of past teachers (priority to oldest)
• Catholic girls from outside the parish who have a brother attending St Mary's Boys School (priority to oldest) and proximity to school taken into consideration.
• Catholic children from outside the parish, proximity to school taken into consideration and then priority to oldest.
• When space permits children of other faiths who live within the parish boundaries who might wish to attend the school

As the teachers are catholic, their children are also catholic.
As the pupils are catholic, their siblings are also catholic.
So every single place is reserved for catholics unless the school becomes under-subscribed, which is not going to happen in that geographical area. Even then, they would bring in catholics from outside the area, as per the written policy.

lazygal

recedite wrote: »

As the teachers are catholic, their children are also catholic.
As the pupils are catholic, their siblings are also catholic.

I know several families where only the eldest child is baptised to ensure access to school and younger children then get in on the siblings policies in a lot of schools. Friends who are teaching in Catholic schools haven't baptised their children either.

recedite

Just noticed that the guy actually said Loreto second-level schools in that article. Here's the second level policy;

The following criteria will be applied in the following order:

• Pupils of Loreto Primary School, Grange Road, Rathfarnham
• Sisters of present pupils
• Daughters of existing eligible staff members. Eligible staff is defined as those non-casual employees who have been in the employment of the Board of Management of the school for at least six months and who are reasonably expected to be still employed by the Board at the time their daughter commences in Loreto High School, Beaufort.
• Sisters of past pupils, such past-pupils must have completed Fifth and Sixth Year in Loreto High School, Beaufort.
• Daughters of past pupils who have graduated from Beaufort.
• All other available places will be allocated in order of date of receipt of Application Form.

Prospective parents and pupils who are not Catholic are expected to respect the Catholic ethos and tradition of the school. The school seeks to promote the Catholic faith, not only in religion class, but in all aspects of school life. Certain liturgies e.g. opening of the Academic Year Mass and the Carol Service are core communal celebrations which all non-Catholic pupils are invited to attend. Attendance at other liturgies held outside class time is voluntary.

Hardly any need to mention "catholics first" in that admission policy when they are only taking their pupils from "catholics first" primary schools?
Plus the children of teachers, past pupils, and siblings, who are also exclusively from the same ethos/background.

recedite

lazygal wrote: »

Friends who are teaching in Catholic schools haven't baptised their children either.

You can be sure they put themselves down as RC when applying for the job though.

lazygal

recedite wrote: »

You can be sure they put themselves down as RC when applying for the job though.

Not always. Not only Catholic schools either.

MrPudding

RainyDay wrote: »

How do you tell the difference?

One lot tends to wear bad suits and seem 'not quite right' the others are from the loony party.

MrP

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

I have my doubts about that story. For one thing, I'm pretty sure there were discriminatory admission policies before 2004. Maybe not in some of the schools this guy had experience of, but that is not to say they did not exist.

He didn't say there weren't, but it wasn't a diocese-wide policy until then.

Secondly he says that Loreto schools nationwide refused to participate in the discriminatory policy, but here is the enrolment policy from Loreto Rathfarham;

An exception to the exception?

Orders have some latitude and individual schools have some latitude, but he gives an example of how pressure was brought to bear, at least in the case of one school he had personal knowledge of.

Cabaal

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/01/14/divestment-of-school-patronage-is-slow/

Today members of the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child are looking at Ireland’s record on children’s rights.

It’s been ten years since the committee last reviewed Ireland’s record.

This morning, Minister for Children and Youth Affairs Dr James Reilly spoke before the committee at the Palais des Nations in Geneva, Switzerland and fielded questions in relation to school patronage.

At one point, one of the committee’s members, Suzanne Aho Assouma, from Togo, interrupted to as if Ireland plans to decriminalise abortion.

It’s understood Dr Reilly, and members of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, will reply to questions this afternoon when a second session gets under way at 2pm (Irish time).

From this morning’s session:

Dr James Reilly: “To reassure the committee, the Equal Status Act prohibit discrimination on nine grounds, namely gender, civil status, family status, sexual orientation, religion, age, race, membership of the Traveller community and disability. And the Employment Acts cover discrimination in the workplace and the Equal Status Act provides protection against discrimination in the provision of goods and services. And the legislation is designed to promote equality and prohibit discrimination in any form that it comes. So that applies in the general sense to both, to all people and also to Travellers and Roma.

In relation to the issue around patronage of the schools, I suppose it’s important to point out that our school system evolved from the religious orders themselves and so it’s not surprise that we have such a preponderance of denominational schools with 95 per cent of primary and 70 per cent of secondary schools of a denominational nature. But we are committed, as a Government, to move to a more pluralist system of patronage for our schools.

The report of the advisory group to the forum among patronage and pluralism in the primary sector, which was published in April 2012, recommended steps that could be taken to ensure that the education system can provide a sufficiently diverse number and range of primary schools to cater for all religions and none. And, as clear evidence that change is occurring, in relation to the ethos of newly provided schools to meet demographic need, since 2011 patronage and decisions have been made in respect of 45 new schools established to meet demographic need and all of these decisions have involved consultation with parents, as to the preferred type of school. Over 90 per cent of the new schools have a multi-denominational ethos.

So where demographic need does not exist the means of achieving pluralism in school choice is through a process of divestment of existing school patronage and this, I have to admit, is a slow process. But the Minister for Education has recently emphasised the importance of accelerating the process in that regard.

Can I just also say, I think it’s important, to point out that, we do have a much more pluralist society and a much more open society in Ireland. Now, there is one school I’m aware of in my own constituency where there’s 81 different nationalities attending that school.

So the issue is one of concern to us, that the patronage of our schools is lagging way behind the actuality of our education system which is, you know, the separation of state and church is clearly well defined. And secondly, the minister has also indicated that she’s going to repeal part of an act that dates from 1965 which states that religious education was the most important element of education in primary schools.”

Gehad Madi: “Thank you very much… The problem is implementation on the ground and we see that there is a big portion of people who would like to enrol their children in non-denominational education do not find the right school in their community, in their county, to do that.

And we understand, also, that religious education, I stand here to be corrected, is part of the curriculum of many schools. Is this the case? Because a student who does not participate in such lessons will have some problems in their grades or graduation. So I wanted to be clear on this issue, to help us better understand the information. And we do acknowledge that the process of transfer is being very slow. Thank you.”

Suzanne Aho Assouma: “Thank you. I haven’t yet had an answer concerning discrimination against boys because they’ve had sexual intercourse. I would like to also know what is being done to prevent stigmatisation of girls. Now on the abortion act, do you plan decriminalise abortion? And, in this regard, we believe that there is discrimination against pregnant girls who have to travel to another country in order to have an abortion. So we are asking why abortions cannot be carried out in Ireland? Is this for religious reasons? And I’d also like to know what happens to those girls who travel abroad to get an abortion? What happens if they haven’t got the necessary resources? What do they do in this case?”

Cabaal

https://twitter.com/emma_okelly/status/687603776413429760?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

https://twitter.com/emma_okelly/status/687604104642867200?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

Not surprised at FF viewpoint, coming from a party that was basically against marriage equality in May...don't want to upset the catholic church

As always, this applys

recedite

From this morning’s session:
Dr James Reilly: “To reassure the committee, the Equal Status Act prohibit discrimination on nine grounds, namely gender, civil status, family status, sexual orientation, religion, age, race, membership of the Traveller community and disability....

Big Reilly seems to have forgotten to mention to the UN that Irish schools get an exemption to religious and gender discrimination on the grounds of "maintaining their ethos".

Perhaps he was deliberately trying to mislead them, or perhaps his memory is not very good.

Absolam

What's the "discrimination against boys because they’ve had sexual intercourse" bit about?

Shrap

Absolam wrote: »

What's the "discrimination against boys because they’ve had sexual intercourse" bit about?

Don't know, but might be the fact that consensual sex between a 17yr old boy and an (underage) 16yr old girl can lead to the boy being placed on the sex offenders register? That's all I can think of. It confused me too.

lazygal

Maybe it's a reference to the school that excluded a pregnant teenager but might not do the same to a male pupil who was responsible for a pregnancy.

The Bishop Basher

recedite wrote: »

As the teachers are catholic, their children are also catholic. As the pupils are catholic, their siblings are also catholic.
So every single place is reserved for catholics unless the school becomes under-subscribed, which is not going to happen in that geographical area. Even then, they would bring in catholics from outside the area, as per the written policy.

There are at least 3 community schools within a few miles of Loreto Rathfarnham open to those of all faiths and none.

There's also a Jewish school, a CoI school and a number of other RC schools.

I would have thought this provides plenty of choice for people in the area of all faiths and none.

Why would an atheist want to send their child to an RC school such as Loreto when there are non denominational options available ?

Shrap

lazygal wrote: »

Maybe it's a reference to the school that excluded a pregnant teenager but might not do the same to a male pupil who was responsible for a pregnancy.

That would be "positive discrimination" towards the boy though (am I right? Never sure about the meaning of that).

looksee

Shrap wrote: »

That would be "positive discrimination" towards the boy though (am I right? Never sure about the meaning of that).

I'd say it had more to do with evidence :pac:

Absolam

Shrap wrote: »

That would be "positive discrimination" towards the boy though (am I right? Never sure about the meaning of that).

Or discrimination against the girl in that she was not treated equally to the boy.. therefore, as you say, sort of discrimination for rather than against the boy, so that doesn't make much sense.

Urgh. 4 webcasts on the website with no text yet. Ages to trawl through :-(

Shrap

Absolam wrote: »

Urgh. 4 webcasts on the website with no text yet. Ages to trawl through :-(

Go for it! Ah, I'm so happy with my ability to let things go....