School patronage

Absolam

looksee wrote: »

Yes, that's pretty much what recidite said. Your point is?

The first phrase; more accurately.

expectationlost

expectationlost wrote: »

Dismantling Catholic ethos of schools would leave ‘moral vacuum’ http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/dismantling-catholic-ethos-of-schools-would-leave-moral-vacuum-1.2628509?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter cripes

speech http://www.jmb.ie/featured-news/4667-dismantling-catholic-ethos-in-schools

for some reason link is gone heres a direct link to the speech http://www.jmb.ie/images/pdf/events/Conference/2016/JMB_President_AMCSS_Conference_Speech_2016.pdf

Diarmaid Ferriter: I have nothing against baptism DF response to above speech
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/diarmaid-ferriter-i-have-nothing-against-baptism-1.2638455

In Killarney last week , Fr Paul Connell, president of the Joint Managerial Body and the Association of Management of Catholic Secondary Schools, completely misconstrued remarks I made at the annual INTO congress in Wexford at Easter.

He said: “It is disheartening and indeed insulting to read articles in a national newspaper by a prominent academic associating Baptism with being a ‘stain on the national consciousness’ or encouraging dismantling protection of our Catholic ethos with the phrase ‘the snakes are coming back, you know’.”
I neither said nor wrote any such things. I referred to the 50th anniversary of the announcement by minister for education Donogh O’Malley in 1966 that he was introducing free secondary school education. During his speech, O’Malley said: “Every year, some 17,000 of our children finishing the primary school course do not receive any further education. This means that almost one in three of our future citizens are cut off at this stage from the opportunities of learning a skill and denied the cultural benefits that go with further education. This is a dark stain on the national conscience.”
The point I made was that, 50 years on, there were, in my view, continued “stains on the national conscience”, and that parents being forced to have their children baptised against their will to get them places in schools when no alternative to a Catholic school was available was one of those stains.
I have no issue whatsoever with Baptism; I was referring to what has been described as the “baptism barrier”, and expressed the view that it is completely unacceptable that some unbaptised children and their parents are being treated like second-class citizens when it comes to schooling.
Sectarian pamphlet

As for Fr Connell’s contention that I was “encouraging dismantling protection of our Catholic ethos with the phrase ‘the snakes are coming back’”, this is also a misrepresentation. In the course of looking at the history of education, I referred to a nasty, sectarian and anonymous pamphlet, Have the Snakes Come Back?, circulated in 1975 in response to the Dalkey School Project in Dublin, which in 1978 became the first multidenominational national school recognised by the Department of Education since 1922, with the exception of those for special-needs children.For Fr Connell to distort the original meaning and context of that emotive and disgraceful pamphlet is bad enough. But he did worse than that; he insisted that the alternative to “growing in faith” as promoted by Catholic schooling, “is a vacuum that can express itself in nihilism and the growing phenomenon in our schools of self-harm”.
I have seldom read anything more insulting, arrogant and ignorant than that. Ironically, Fr Connell then had the gall to say: “Respect, of course, should always be afforded to the religious freedom and personal conscience of individual pupils.”

form the JMB speech

For example it is disheartening and indeed insulting to read articles in a national newspaper by a prominent academic associating baptism with being a stain on the national consciousness or encouraging dismantling protection of our Catholic ethos with the phrase - the snakes are coming back you know. For us to use similar language in our discourse would be rightly seen as inappropriate and unacceptable.

the original article

Diarmaid Ferriter: Schools system is blatantly sectarian Nov 28, 2015


http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/diarmaid-ferriter-schools-system-is-blatantly-sectarian-1.2446555

Are the snakes coming back? That was the question posed in 1976 by a nasty, sectarian and anonymous pamphlet circulated in response to the Dalkey School Project (DSP) in Dublin, which culminated in the school opening its doors to its first 100 pupils in September 1978.
...
In 1966, minster for education Donogh O’Malley announced the introduction of free secondary education on the grounds that its absence was “a dark stain on the national conscience”.
It was significant he did so in the year that marked the Easter Rising’s 50th anniversary; the idea that an initiative to give some meaning to the 1916 Proclamation’s promise of equality was necessary was in the political ether.
It would be entirely fitting for an initiative to be undertaken by the State to erase the “dark stain” in relation to primary school admissions for the 100th anniversary of the Rising.
...


But this issue is not going away; the snakes are coming back and they are determined to stay.

totally misquoting hmm, fake catholic persecution as usual

fisgon

Yes, it is always a sign of desperation - and lack of a decent argument - when someone in a debate simply makes up what the other has said in order to more easily condemn their opponent. The classic strawman. It shows that the church is feeling the pressure on education.

But that nonsense about self-harm was, even for a priest, pretty pathetic. "nihilism and self-harm"! Well if modern kids are nihilistic and self-harming, whose fault is that? The majority of our schools are f##king Catholic!

Absolam

fisgon wrote: »

Yes, it is always a sign of desperation - and lack of a decent argument - when someone in a debate simply makes up what the other has said in order to more easily condemn their opponent.

That's very very true

expectationlost

Schools change of patronage for September next http://www.echo.ie/news/item/schools-change-of-patronage-for-september-next

SEPTEMBER 1 next has been set as the planned date for finalising the formal transfer of patronage of Community National Schools to Education and Training Boards.

The Acting Minister for Education and Skills, Jan O’Sullivan TD, announced September 1, 2016 as the planned date for finalising the formal transfer of patronage of the eleven Community National Schools to the relevant Education and Training Boards.

does that mean "Community National Schools" system is gone and new state primary schools will it just be done through VEC?

recedite

It looks more like a "rebranding" exercise. They were always a primary school version of the secondary VEC schools, which were themselves rebranded "ETB" from VEC.

expectationlost

recedite wrote: »

It looks more like a "rebranding" exercise. They were always a primary school version of the secondary VEC schools, which were themselves rebranded "ETB" from VEC.

more then re branding if oversight moves to councils from minister

recedite

I think the minister is dissolving CNS and transferring oversight to ETB, at their own request? The people involved in lobbying for the CNS schools in my area were the same individuals involved in the whole VEC "movement". Apart from the county councillors and petty officials etc who are at the top, there seems to be a small army of volunteers involved in it.

Hotblack Desiato

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/monkstown-primary-school-parents-protest-against-phone-mast-1.2643576

Parents of children at the Monkstown Educate Together Primary School in south Dublin have staged a protest against plans to locate a mobile phone mast beside the school.

You'd think phone mast woo would have less purchase at an ET :rolleyes:

One of my former schools (not ET) has phone masts ON the school roof!

Delirium

Source

Somewhat surprised to see 18-24 almost split down the middle on the question. Expected to see it at least at the same percentage as 25-34, if not higher.

Hotblack Desiato

Delirium wrote: »

Somewhat surprised to see 18-24 almost split down the middle on the question.

FBNKY

Freshly brainwashed, no kids yet

ISTR seeing a poll on the 8th amendment where 18-24s were more conservative than expected also

lazygal

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

FBNKY

Freshly brainwashed, no kids yet

ISTR seeing a poll on the 8th amendment where 18-24s were more conservative than expected also

I was far more conservative in my younger days. A dose of the real world got rid of the Catholic crap very quickly once I didn't have to do religion classes.

expectationlost

Minister for Education and Skills Briefing 2016 http://education.ie/en/Welcome-from-Minister/Minister's-Welcome-Statement/Minister-for-Education-and-Skills-Welcome-Message.html

Education chief cautions on religion teaching in schools
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/education-chief-cautions-on-religion-teaching-in-schools-1.2652450 officials full speech https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Speeches/2016-Speeches/SP2016-05-18.html

Plan for more non-faith schools
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/plan-for-more-non-faith-schools-400303.html

while still depending on the church

expectationlost

Keep 10% of Catholic school places for unbaptised, says Faith in our Schools group http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/keep-10-of-catholic-school-places-for-unbaptised-says-group-1.2653759?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

our schools, yes al our state funded schools

Absolam

expectationlost wrote: »

Keep 10% of Catholic school places for unbaptised, says Faith in our Schools group
our schools, yes al our state funded schools

All our State schools or just the ones being subsidised and operated by Catholic education organisations? A quick read suggests the latter rather than the former...

Hotblack Desiato

Fecking cheek of them. This sort of crap in admissions policies should be outlawed, and fast.

PopePalpatine

Let me guess, Faith In Our Schools is another Legatus Lackey group?

expectationlost

expectationlost wrote: »

Keep 10% of Catholic school places for unbaptised, says Faith in our Schools group http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/keep-10-of-catholic-school-places-for-unbaptised-says-group-1.2653759?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

our schools, yes all our state funded schools

one set of god botherers suggest giving 10% of school places to non-christians (in order to maintain dominance) and another set of god botheres write this headline Catholic children may be turned away from faith schools http://www.irishcatholic.ie/article/catholic-children-may-be-turned-away-faith-schools

The Randy Riverbeast

expectationlost wrote: »

one set of god botherers suggest giving 10% of school places to non-christians (in order to maintain dominance) and another set of god botheres write this headline Catholic children may be turned away from faith schools http://www.irishcatholic.ie/article/catholic-children-may-be-turned-away-faith-schools

They are just painting it in a bad light because they want it to be perceived that way.

Am I doing this right?

Kiwi in IE

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

They are just painting it in a bad light because they want it to be perceived that way.

Am I doing this right?

Yes, top marks there!

Absolam

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

They are just painting it in a bad light because they want it to be perceived that way.
Am I doing this right?

You're definitely doing it the way certain posters tend to, anyways

robindch

Statistics indicate that state-run secondary schools in Ireland take far more special-needs students than schools run by religious organizations.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0530/791888-special-needs-education/

recedite

A short-sighted plan to reduce the availability of pubic transport to schoolchildren could become reality;

Smaller buses could result in many of what are known as 'concessionary' ticket holders - who currently number about 22,000 of the 113,000 pupils on school buses - losing out.

A lot of the "concessionary" kids are classed as such simply because they are going to a school that is not their nearest school. For example they may be attending an ET or an ETB school even though it is one or two km further away from their home than the RC school. (Or vice versa)

This whole problem is caused by the Dept. of Education thinking that by increasing the "diversity" of schools available, they are solving the problem of the unwanted indoctrination and discrimination in publicly funded schools.
A proper solution would be to provide public funding only for secular, non-indoctrinating schools which are open to all members of the public on a fully equal basis. Then the transport issue solves itself; simply provide a free school bus within the locality to that school.
Anyone wanting a private (or a special religiously inspired) education could make their own private arrangements.

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

This whole problem is caused by the Dept. of Education thinking that by increasing the "diversity" of schools available, they are solving the problem of the unwanted indoctrination and discrimination in publicly funded schools.

Do you really think that's why they lean towards increased diversity in schools? Don't you think it's possible that by facilitating greater diversity they increase the choice available to parents (ie give due regard to parents wishes regarding religious and moral formation) who ultimately are the ones responsible for their children's education? After all, they don't have a mandate to solve the problem of the unwanted indoctrination and discrimination in publicly funded schools (particularly if such problems are not evident or contrary to the law), but as an agent of the State they may have some function in endeavouring to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, not to mention providing educational facilities or institutions with due regard for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation.

recedite wrote: »

A proper solution would be to provide public funding only for secular, non-indoctrinating schools which are open to all members of the public on a fully equal basis. Then the transport issue solves itself; simply provide a free school bus within the locality to that school.
Anyone wanting a private (or a special religiously inspired) education could make their own private arrangements.

It certainly would be a proper solution for someone who wants the State to be responsible for only providing access to secular education Parents who want to provide their children with religious ethos education as they do now... might not think it's such a proper solution though.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Hotblack Desiato

Pubic transport? That part of the new sex education syllabus?

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

Do you really think that's why they lean towards increased diversity in schools? Don't you think it's possible that by facilitating greater diversity they increase the choice available to parents ...

In today's Ireland, there are very many different religious doctrines. The state cannot fund schools for all types of doctrine in every locality, so there can never be enough choice when providing indoctrinating schools.
The state is not obliged to try to provide them, and it shouldn't try.

2RockMountain

recedite wrote: »

A short-sighted plan to reduce the availability of pubic transport to schoolchildren could become reality;
A lot of the "concessionary" kids are classed as such simply because they are going to a school that is not their nearest school. For example they may be attending an ET or an ETB school even though it is one or two km further away from their home than the RC school. (Or vice versa)

This whole problem is caused by the Dept. of Education thinking that by increasing the "diversity" of schools available, they are solving the problem of the unwanted indoctrination and discrimination in publicly funded schools.
A proper solution would be to provide public funding only for secular, non-indoctrinating schools which are open to all members of the public on a fully equal basis. Then the transport issue solves itself; simply provide a free school bus within the locality to that school.
Anyone wanting a private (or a special religiously inspired) education could make their own private arrangements.

I'm still not sure why students outside of cities get their transport paid for and provided by the State, while those in cities don't?

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

In today's Ireland, there are very many different religious doctrines. The state cannot fund schools for all types of doctrine in every locality, so there can never be enough choice when providing indoctrinating schools.

Sure; but it can fund all schools that show they have a demand for the service they provide, so at least most people will get the schools they want instead of having to provide the education they want themselves. Unlike your proposition, where only some people will get the schools they want, instead of complaining about how other people are getting the education they want.

recedite wrote: »

The state is not obliged to try to provide them, and it shouldn't try.

Sure; it's obliged to provide for the education that parents choose for their children and should continue to do so.

Absolam

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Well... no. It's the problem of those people who want to give them that problem, because right now they don't have that problem, and they're not likely to want to have it, are they?