School patronage

Absolam

learn_more wrote: »

Do you take your own views seriously ? Or is winning points more your 'thing' whether you actually believe in them or not. Your not a barrister by profession are you?

Must I? And how do you figure out who's winning points, if it's a 'thing' like you say?

learn_more

Absolam wrote: »

Must I? And how do you figure out who's winning points, if it's a 'thing' like you say?

That answer answered my question, even if you didn't mean it to

Absolam

learn_more wrote: »

That answer answered my question, even if you didn't mean it to

Great! How many points did I win?

Bass Reeves

One contributor quoted the static of the reduction of the amount of marriages in a Catholic church. He quoted a figure of 35ish % of Norton church marriages. This exaggerates the figures as one or both partners may have been divorced which prohibits the marriage from taking place in a Catholic church. What would be more interesting is the amount of people that opt for a religious funeral. Would it be up near 90 at present. How far will this drop over next 20 years.

Hotblack Desiato

So now you're using the religious devotion of 90 year olds to justify our school system??

Absolam

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

So now you're using the religious devotion of 90 year olds to justify our school system??

Probably about as relevant as using the number of people who marry in non Catholic ceremonies to attack it, in fairness....

Bass Reeves

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

So now you're using the religious devotion of 90 year olds to justify our school system??

Deaths have a large cross section across all age groups. Unfortunately not all people that die are 90 years old. All I was pointing out was the difference in stastics. But then there are liess damm lies and stastics. You have to look behind stats to get real answers. Peole and there families may not go to mass, they may not get married in a church but the vast majority still want to be sent off with some form of Christian rite in Ireland.

Hotblack Desiato

Perhaps, although once they're dead they have no say in the matter.

It still has precisely zero relevance to how we should organise our education system.

Absolam

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It still has precisely zero relevance to how we should organise our education system.

Well, maybe not zero. Maybe about as much as the other unrelated statistics quoted in support of your own argument.

Bass Reeves

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Perhaps, although once they're dead they have no say in the matter.

It still has precisely zero relevance to how we should organise our education system.

Yet we had posters accepting the validity of the facts in spurious letters written to newspapers. They did not look behind the stats quoted. Quoting that a person has no say in how there funeral is carried out is also disingenuous most families follow the wishes of there loved one's whether in burial or cremation and in what ever other way they want the funeral carried out. People express wishes of songs to be sung and maybe poems to be said, donation's to a hospital or a charity nstead of flowers etc etc.

recedite

Bass Reeves wrote: »

This exaggerates the figures as one or both partners may have been divorced which prohibits the marriage from taking place in a Catholic church.

Surely that's an indication that they have made a decision to ignore church doctrine on the matter?
Its a fairly safe assumption then, that they would not automatically want the same church doctrine drilled into their offspring.

Hotblack Desiato

It's simply not true that the increase in non-church weddings has much to do with divorce, the divorce figures are far smaller than the number of non-church weddings.
Also most people who get divorced are over 50 (especially as there is a five year wait here) and they're not enrolling many primary school pupils of parents of that age.
A complete red herring in other words, but thanks for playing.

Also a person can express their wishes as to funeral arrangements but there is no guarantee that those wishes will be respected. This is especially the case with non-religious young adults of religious parents.

RobbieTheRobber

Education Minister Richard Bruton is due to announce plans this morning to legislate on the controversial school admissions system.
Under the so-called 'baptism barrier', many children cannot access religious primary schools unless they have been baptised in a Christian faith.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/bruton-set-to-pledge-end-of-baptism-barrier-in-schools-1.2937809

Possibly some movement on this issue.

Bristolscale7

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/bruton-set-to-pledge-end-of-baptism-barrier-in-schools-1.2937809

Possibly some movement on this issue.

More like bowel movement. Don't get your hopes up. I see one of the options is to allow discrimination as long as the privileged students are within a catchment area.

Michael Nugent

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/bruton-set-to-pledge-end-of-baptism-barrier-in-schools-1.2937809

Possibly some movement on this issue.

This plan is even worse than it seems at first glance. If implemented, it would actually strengthen religious discrimination in schools. What seems to be the best of the four options in the plan, removing the baptism barrier completely, is actually the worst, as the Minister says that "Under this last option religious schools could require parents or students to indicate support for the school's religious ethos."

So removing the Baptism rule completely would mean that minority belief parents must support the evangelising of their children into the Catholic faith. It would merely give children of minority belief families equal access to being compulsorily discriminated against within the schools, which is where the real problem is, and would give the Catholic Church access to more minority belief children to evangelise into Catholicism.

The other three of the Minister’s discussion options (catchment area, nearest school and quotas) would merely fine-tune the religious discrimination in access, and would still result in children being refused access to their local school because of the religious or nonreligious beliefs of their parents.

The Minister says this is to protect the rights of minority faiths to run their own schools, but that approach just legitimises even more religious discrimination. Currently, Church of Ireland schools discriminate against Evangelicals, and Islamic schools discriminate against Ahmadi Muslims. Every minority family and child has the same right to be treated equally. These plans will not do that.

http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2017/01/ministers-plan-deeply-flawed/

RobbieTheRobber

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

More like bowel movement. Don't get your hopes up. I see one of the options is to allow discrimination as long as the privileged students are within a catchment area.

Oh I fully expect to be disappointed but at least it's being raised for discussion.

recedite

This whole thing about "catchment areas" needs to be watched very carefully.
I heard Minister Bruton talking about these proposals on the radio and he was saying that parents are right to be annoyed in a situation where they live next door to a school, but the school place is taken by a child living 10 miles away who happens to be of a different religion.
In that situation, what is to stop the "patron" from declaring a catchment area of 10 miles radius, or whatever they think is large enough to suit their discriminatory purposes?

expectationlost

recedite wrote: »

This whole thing about "catchment areas" needs to be watched very carefully.
I heard Minister Bruton talking about these proposals on the radio and he was saying that parents are right to be annoyed in a situation where they live next door to a school, but the school place is taken by a child living 10 miles away who happens to be of a different religion.
In that situation, what is to stop the "patron" from declaring a catchment area of 10 miles radius, or whatever they think is large enough to suit their discriminatory purposes?

how big should a catchment area be?

expectationlost

it amazing what access to Ministers aviation millions to fund lobbiests get you https://twitter.com/equateireland/status/821023976591945728

as long as your more then willing to be co-opted by the Minister

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

how big should a catchment area be?

As long as a piece of string.

expectationlost wrote: »

it amazing what access to Ministers aviation millions to fund lobbiests get you https://twitter.com/equateireland/status/821023976591945728

Who is the guy in the picture? (besides Bruton)
Equate was founded by residual capital from The One Foundation, AFAIK, and was populated by certain "movers and shakers" of Irish society.
Whereas Equality Ireland is comprised more of regular parents.

expectationlost

recedite wrote: »

As long as a piece of string.


Who is the guy in the picture? (besides Bruton)
Equate was founded by residual capital from The One Foundation, AFAIK, and was populated by certain "movers and shakers" of Irish society.
Whereas Equality Ireland is comprised more of regular parents.

the guy is Michael Barron Equate lobbiest. Declan Ryan is the biggest funder using his daddies money.

Equate Ireland biggest funder is the Humanist Association of Ireland who were the previous lot to be photographed beside a Minister with a bill that ignored atheists.

expectationlost

Richard Bruton on the last word http://www.todayfm.com/player/listen_back/7/35009/16th_January_2017_-_The_Last_Word_with_Matt_Cooper_Part_1 Nugent afterwards, they'd never have them debate each other.

donspeekinglesh

Equate gives TV3 ultimatum to remove Jane Donnelly of Atheist Ireland from interview http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2017/01/equate-tv3-ultimatum/

TV3 told Atheist Ireland that Michael Barron of Equate had issued TV3 with an ultimatum that Equate would not appear on the show if Atheist Ireland was also represented.

Equate had said the Minister’s announcement represented a great day, while Atheist Ireland had said it would strengthen religious discrimination. TV3 said that Equate did not want their position to be contradicted on air by Atheist Ireland.

Huntergonzo

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

Equate gives TV3 ultimatum to remove Jane Donnelly of Atheist Ireland from interview http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2017/01/equate-tv3-ultimatum/

Well that's pretty interesting, if exactly true then it shows Equate in a very poor light and also TV3 chickened out. They should have said 'we invited Equate on but they refused our invitation on the grounds that their opinion would be challenged'.

Huntergonzo

I heard Minister Bruton on Newstalk yesterday morning and I can't recall atheists getting a mention at all either by him or the broadcaster, very poor form I thought. Did I miss something here or is it simply a case that if you don't have a religion of some description then you're very bottom of the priority list, ie not even worth a mention?

recedite

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

Equate gives TV3 ultimatum to remove Jane Donnelly of Atheist Ireland from interview....

.....replaced her with Seamus Mulconry, the General Secretary of the Catholic Primary Schools Managers Association.

Is that a good swop??? :pac:

Advbrd

Let me get this right: you are quids in with Equate as long as you believe in something. On your bike if you think all religions are nonsense.
That it?

Advbrd

Last week I had to explain to my 8 year old that the great flood was just a made up story. Yesterday, he asked me were all non catholics bad. Not a good picture to be getting.

recedite

Equate is the boss's son who arrives on the shop floor half an hour before closing time and announces "Right lads, we're gonna get this done"
Then realises smarter people than him have been working on the project all week, and its not near finished yet.
Changes to "Right lads, we're gonna have to bodge this". Then swans off at 5pm to declare "job done".

expectationlost

while im cribbing about about secular campaigners I might as well say

Paddy Monahan, get your **** together

Disclosure of Donations by unsuccessful candidates
In November 2016 the Standards Commission sent files to Garda Headquarters concerning the remaining 24 candidates who had failed to return the required statutory documentation.
Persons referred to the Gardaí.

Monahan, Paddy National University of Ireland

http://www.sipo.gov.ie/en/Reports/Election-Reports/Seanad-General-Election-25-26-April-2016/Disclosure-of-Donations-by-unsuccessful-candidates.html