Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
School patronage
Comments
-
You don't seem to understand what "neutral" means. If we talked about race instead of religion, you would see how ridiculous your point is.and the fact that Secularism is actively campaigning to wipe out all KKK influence in the schooling of White children and to take-over all publicly funded KKK run schools certainly doesn't exhibit any 'neutrality' by Secularism of race in schools.
Indeed other campaigns by Secularists to privatise race discrimination and remove it from the public domain shows no 'neutrality' towards race relations ... in or out of schools.0 -
... that might be OK if agressive Secularism was 'neutral' in it's attitude to religion ... However this clearly isn't the case ... and the fact that Secularism is actively campaigning to wipe out all church influence in the schooling of Christian children and to take-over all church run schools certainly doesn't exhibit any 'neutrality' or indeed tolerance by Secularism of any religion in schools.
Indeed other campaigns by Secularists to privatise religion and remove it from the public domain shows no 'neutrality' by Secularism, towards religion ... in or out of schools.
Since you oppose a neutral school model, what do you propose? A public school for every religion in every village and town?If you can read this, you're too close!
0 -
The fact that you are comparing church run schools with the KKK tells any Christian all they need to know about the attitude of Irish Secularism to all Christians.You don't seem to understand what "neutral" means. If we talked about race instead of religion, you would see how ridiculous your point is.
Quote:
and the fact that Secularism is actively campaigning to wipe out all KKK influence in the schooling of White children and to take-over all publicly funded KKK run schools certainly doesn't exhibit any 'neutrality' by Secularism of race in schools.
I sincerely hope that you see how sinister your comparison is - and upon mature refection, that you will unreservedly withdraw it.0 -
The fact that you are comparing church run schools with the KKK tells any Christian all they need to know about the attitude of Irish Secularism to all Christians.
I sincerely hope that you see how sinister your comparison is - and upon mature refection, that you will unreservedly withdraw it.
Duh, he's not comparing church run schools with the KKK.
Surely no one could be this stupid?0 -
I would propose a mixture of church run schools and, where numbers permit, genuinely pluralist schools respectful of all religions and none.Since you oppose a neutral school model, what do you propose? A public school for every religion in every village and town?
It's impossible to devise a perfect school ethos that will please everybody ... but replacing a monolithic religious school system with a monolithic irreligious school system is going backwards IMO.0 -
Advertisement
-
So the public schools that *all* taxpayers fund state under Christian patronage?I would propose a mixture of church run schools and, where numbers permit, genuinely pluralist schools respectful of all religions and none.
How is having a religiously neutral (i.e secular) school going backwards when it is more inclusive than the religious school sprawl you're suggesting?It's impossible to devise a perfect school ethos that will please everybody ... but replacing a monlithic religious school system with a monolithic irreligious school system is going backwards IMO.If you can read this, you're too close!
0 -
Certainly not. Racial or religious discrimination are both totally unacceptable in a state funded facility. Arguably they are allowable in a private facility (even though they are unsavoury) due to the right of people to have "free association" with their own kind. Private golf clubs can get away with sex discrimination by preventing women from becoming full members on this basis....and upon mature refection, that you will unreservedly withdraw it.
However even these kind of private discriminations should really be consigned to the dustbin of history IMO, not through legal means, but by becoming socially unacceptable.
But the idea that the state itself would get involved in discrimination is totally ridiculous in the 21st century. The state should be strictly neutral, and strictly secular.0 -
He introduced the KKK ... so why did he use this as an analogy for church run schools ... if he isn't comparing churches to a white-supremacist racist organisation?Pherekydes wrote: »Duh, he's not comparing church run schools with the KKK.
Surely no one could be this stupid?
Of course he is comparing church run schools with the KKK running schools.
His analogy may not be pretty ... but neither are many of the anti-religious and scoffing postings on this forum ... and if they are in any way reflective of Irish Secularism then no school should be handed over to people with this degree of intolerance towards Christians and other people of faith.0 -
So you are refusing to withdraw your comparison of church-run schools with schools run by the KKK.Originally Posted by J C
The fact that you are comparing church run schools with the KKK tells any Christian all they need to know about the attitude of Irish Secularism to all Christians.
I sincerely hope that you see how sinister your comparison is - and upon mature refection, that you will unreservedly withdraw it.
recedite
Certainly not. Racial or religious discrimination are both totally unacceptable in a state funded facility.
I agree that the state shouldn't get involved in discrimination or co-ercing parents into sending their children to schools that they have a personal objection to.recedite wrote:But the idea that the state itself would get involved in discrimination is totally ridiculous in the 21st century. The state should be strictly neutral, and strictly secular.
... the state should encourage the provision of as broad a range of school types as student numbers permit ... and parents can then choose which of these schools to send their children to.
Replacing a religious monolith with an irreligious monolith certainly isn't the way to go.0 -
He introduced the KKK ... so why did he use this as an analogy for church run schools ... if he isn't comparing churches to a white-supremacist racist organisation?
Seriously, are you that stupid? He replaced religious discrimination with racial discrimination to show how absurd your posturing is.
You seem to want schools to cater for religions, only. Children of such schools would spend their entire day in prayer and worship to various deities, and learn NOTHING.
Schools are for education, not indoctrination.0 -
Advertisement
-
... it's certainly just as acceptable as publicly funded schools under irreligious patronage.So the public schools that *all* taxpayers fund state under Christian patronage?
That might be OK if it was genuinely religiously neutral and inclusive ... but I have no faith that people who are deeply anti-religious can ever be religiously neutral.How is having a religiously neutral (i.e secular) school going backwards when it is more inclusive than the religious school sprawl you're suggesting?
... and the proof of this is their proposals ... to take over church run schools and ban all pastors and priests from ever visiting these schools ... these are the propsals of an irreligionist ... and not of somebody who is religiously 'neutral' ... as far as I'd be concerned.0 -
I'm not stupid at all ... and neither are the people of Ireland ... they know when they are being 'taken for a ride' ... and this is one ride they can do something about ... by choosing what school they will send their children to ... and that is why all surveys are showing that the RCC cannot give away practically any school throughout most of the country ... and even if they did, there would be practically no children sent to it.Pherekydes wrote: »Seriously, are you that stupid? He replaced religious discrimination with racial discrimination to show how absurd your posturing is.
A few religion classes per week and the right to wear religious symbols, meet religious pastors and priests and engage in prayer on a school premises (all of which would be banned in an irreligious school) doesn't need to take up much time in a school day.Pherekydes wrote: »You seem to want schools to cater for religions, only. Children of such schools would spent their entire day in prayer and worship to various deities, and learn NOTHING.
Schools are for education, not indoctrination.
.. and education in religious/irreligious ideas and Christian moral values, is just as important as other subjects, if young people are to have a 'rounded' education and not merely be trained to become a 'cog' in the technological machine, that modern society is rapidly becoming.
Equally, irreligionists are just as capable of indoctrination as their religious counterparts ...
and in this regard, Irish people overwhelmingly still have a preference in favour of a Christian worldview being presented to their children in school, instead of an irreligious one - and it is their right, both as citizens and taxpayers, to have their views on this respected.0 -
How? The state shouldn't be playing favourites with any religion. How is it on the same level as a secular school system that is neutral regarding religion?... it's certainly just as acceptable as publicly funded schools under irreligious patronage.That might be OK if it was genuinely religiously neutral and inclusive ... but I have no faith that people who are deeply anti-religious can ever be religiously neutral.
... and the proof of this is their proposals ... to take over church run schools and ban all pastors and priests from ever visiting these schools ... these are the propsals of an irreligionist ... and not of somebody who is religiously 'neutral' ... as far as I'd be concerned.
Right, so you don't trust people to run public secular schools in an inclusive manner. And because of your distrust of the state running the schools it funds in a secular fashion, you opt instead to maintain the status quo.
It's interesting that religious patrons get a pass from you regarding discrimination of potential students, yet a proposed secular system is immediately being poisoned as an idea by yourself.If you can read this, you're too close!
0 -
... and that is why all surveys are showing that the RCC cannot give away practically any school throughout most of the country ... and even if they did, there would be practically no children sent to it.
If that were the case perhaps you could explain why Educate Together schools are considerably more oversubscribed than their RCC counterparts, not least by those who are nominally Catholic?0 -
A few religion classes per week and the right to wear religious symbols, meet religious pastors and priests and engage in prayer on a school premises (all of which would be banned in an irreligious school) doesn't need to take up much time in a school day.
You left out the imams and rabbis there, not to mention the parents who specifically do no want their children to receive any religious instruction. Given the diversity of religious belief and lack thereof out there, it would seem to make more sense to have all and any religious instruction take place on an extra curricular basis. You can't reasonably have a multi-denominational system that supports an ethos that preaches a notion that one set of beliefs is right and all opposing beliefs are wrong. Your choices are basically accept and respect the diversity of beliefs out there, or ban any reference to any belief system, where personally I favour the former.0 -
The state certainly shouldn't be exclusively favouring irreligion ... but if parents want to favour a religious ethos in the schools they send their children to ... and the numbers justify it ... then so be it ... and the state should support them and their schools.How? The state shouldn't be playing favourites with any religion. How is it on the same level as a secular school system that is neutral regarding religion?
I do trust the state ... its the irreligionists demanding that the state take over church-run schools and decree them by law to be irreligious, that I don't agree with.Right, so you don't trust people to run public secular schools in an inclusive manner. And because of your distrust of the state running the schools it funds in a secular fashion, you opt instead to maintain the status quo.
The poisoning is being done by agressive irreligionists telling us that they want to ban Christian leaders and a Christian ethos from all schools ... while demanding that irreligion and anti-religious ideas be taught as fact to all children within all schools.It's interesting that religious patrons get a pass from you regarding discrimination of potential students, yet a proposed secular system is immediately being poisoned as an idea by yourself.0 -
We live in an increasingly pluralist society ... and ET schools have a role in school provision ... but, they are no more a 'one size fits all' solution than church-run schools are.If that were the case perhaps you could explain why Educate Together schools are considerably more oversubscribed than their RCC counterparts, not least by those who are nominally Catholic?
... and, in fairness, I don't think that they would claim to be either.0 -
... and you're quite entitled to send your children to such religion-free schools, if the numbers locally justify them.You left out the imams and rabbis there, not to mention the parents who specifically do no want their children to receive any religious instruction. Given the diversity of religious belief and lack thereof out there, it would seem to make more sense to have all and any religious instruction take place on an extra curricular basis.
... ther eis a third way where you can have church-run schools that have an ethos based on their beliefs whilst respecting the religious and irreligious minorities that may also be present in their school communities. That would seem to be the way to go with most schools within a population who are 90% Christian.You can't reasonably have a multi-denominational system that supports an ethos that preaches a notion that one set of beliefs is right and all opposing beliefs are wrong. Your choices are basically accept and respect the diversity of beliefs out there, or ban any reference to any belief system, where personally I favour the former.0 -
Why shouldn't the state favour secular public schools? It favours no religious (or non-religious) perspective. The state needs to get a basic public school system right before splurging on religious schools. People shouldn't have to worry about their child not getting into schools because of their religion, i.e. the current situation which you seem to support.The state certainly shouldn't be exclusively favouring irreligion ... but if parents want to favour a religious ethos in the schools they send their children to ... and the numbers justify it ... then so be it ... and the state should support them and their schools.
You mean those state-funded and state-staffed schools? Those ones? I have no problem with church-run schools doing as they please if they fund and staff themselves. But since the taxpayers fund those schools (and pays the teachers wages), there is no good reason to allow a defacto Christian state school system to exist in preference to a secular one.I do trust the state ... its the irreligionists demanding that the state take over church-run schools and decree them by law to be irreligious, that I don't agree with.
Thank you for proving my point. We're discussing secular schools, not anti-theist schools that you keep trying to crowbar into the discussion. It's also somewhat hypocritical to complain about something while supporting a public school system that fosters that same issue, ableit from a Christian slant. Not that it addresses the issue of secular schools btw.The poisoning is being done by agressive irreligionists telling us that they will ban Christian leaders and a Christian ethos from schools ... while demanding that irreligion and anti-religious ideas be taught as fact to all children within all schools.If you can read this, you're too close!
0 -
So what would you do if JC junior only has the option of a RCC run school which is teaching that creationism is bunk and that the RCC is the only true church. That all other Christians are heretics?... and you're quite entitled to send your children to such religion-free schools, if the numbers locally justify them.
Do you send JC junior to that school to be indoctrinated with RCC teachings? Do you move the family to another town or city in the hope of finding a school less dogmatic?If you can read this, you're too close!
0 -
Advertisement
-
The state needs to stay neutral on matters religious and irreligious ... and leave parents freely decide what schools to send their children to ... that's what a true liberal would support ... and not the grabbing of church property and the 'force-feeding' of irreligion to all children irrespective of their parents wishes.Why shouldn't the state favour secular public schools? It favours no religious (or non-religious) perspective. The state needs to get a basic public school system right before splurging on religious schools.
Christian Parents shouldn't have worry that their children will be indoctinated into practical Atheism and irreligion within the schools they choose to send their children to !!!People shouldn't have to worry about their child not getting into schools because of their religion, i.e. the current situation which you seem to support.
... and you mean the 90% of Irish taxpayers that are Christian whose tax Euros you want to use to fund and promote irreligion to their children and grandchildren within every school.You mean those state-funded and state-staffed schools? Those ones? I have no problem with church-run schools doing as they please if they fund and staff themselves. But since the taxpayers fund those schools (and pays the teachers wages), there is no good reason to allow a defacto Christian state school system to exist in preference to a secular one.
We're talking about taking over church property and then banning all Christian leaders, all faith expression and formation from these schools ... that's objectively pretty anti-theist IMO.Thank you for proving my point. We're discussing secular schools, not anti-theist schools that you keep trying to crowbar into the discussion. It's also somewhat hypocritical to complain about something while supporting a public school system that fosters that same issue, ableit from a Christian slant. Not that it addresses the issue of secular schools btw.
... or how would you define an anti-theist set-up in schools?0 -
One of my chidren is currently attending an RCC school ... and I have found respect for my Christian beliefs and principles within this school.So what would you do if JC junior only has the option of a RCC run school which is teaching that creationism is bunk and that the RCC is the only true church. That all other Christians are heretics?
Church pastors from local church communties are welcome and have addressed all students in the school ... its a beacon of tolerance and pluralism ... which could teach the pseudo-liberals, (who want every school to be a God-less school), a thing or two about genuine respect for diversity.
I look at the selection of schools available to my family and I choose which school I think best meets my needs and those of my precious children.Do you send JC junior to that school to be indoctrinated with RCC teachings? Do you move the family to another town or city in the hope of finding a school less dogmatic?
Like many things in life, it can be a compromise between different factors.0 -
Things would go a lot better if you could actually argue against secularism rather whatever it is you keep diverting to. A secular school system would have religion classes that would be pluralist, rather than catering exclusively to one religious perspecive. It's astonishing that the mere notion of a more inclusvie religious syllabus has injected such a sensation of terror that you seem to exhibit as above.The state needs to stay neutral on matters religious and irreligious ... and leave parents freely decide what schools to send their children to ... that's what a true liberal would support ... and not the grabbing of church property and the 'force-feeding' of irreligion to all children irrespective of their parents wishes.
And there's that mask of 'pluralism' slipping away. I fail to see how restricting religious learning to the faith of the child is anything but counter-productive in a modern pluralist society.Christian Parents shouldn't have worry that their children will be indoctinated into practical Atheism and irreligion within the schools they choose to send their children to !!!
Nope. I have never posted such a thing, so I'd appreciate if you could maintain some level of honesty in the discussion. I am very much in favour of religion being part of the learning in a state school. But I extend it beyond the single faith learning that you so favour. I want kids to have some knowledge of as many religious beliefs as possible. Through knowledge comes understanding.... and you mean the 90% of Irish taxpayers that are Christian whose tax Euros you want to use fund and promote irreligion within every school.
Nope. You're talking about that. I'm steadfast in discussing secularism but you keep attempting to deflect to some tangent rather than engage with the subject. Any chance you might give it a go now?We're talking about taking over church property and then banning all Christian leaders, all faith expression and formation from these schools ... that's objectively pretty anti-theist IMO.
... or how would you define an anti-theist set-up in schools?If you can read this, you're too close!
0 -
One of my chidren is currently attending an RCC school ... and I have found respect for my Christian beliefs and principles within this school.
Church pastors from local church communties are welcome and have addressed all students in the school ... its a beacon of tolerance and pluralism ... which could teach the pseudo-liberals, (who want every school to be a God-less school), a thing or two about genuine respect for diversity.
I look at the selection of schools available to my family and I choose which school I think best meets my needs and those of my precious children.
Not what I asked you. Would you like to answer the question I actually asked?
Would you relocate your family to find a Christian school ?If you can read this, you're too close!
0 -
So, you are proposing that the state mandate the religious syllabus in school ... not much separation of church and state there !!!Things would go a lot better if you could actually argue against secularism rather whatever it is you keep diverting to. A secular school system would have religion classes that would be pluralist, rather than catering exclusively to one religious perspecive. It's astonishing that the mere notion of a more inclusvie religious syllabus has injected such a sensation of terror that you seem to exhibit as above.
... churches shouldn't run states ... and states shouldn't run churches ... or devise a religious syllabus for schools!!!
The first thing is that each Christian child should receive is orthodox and truthful faith formation ... after that I'm happy for them to hear about the myriad of 'alternative' beliefs that form the rich tapestry that is our modern pluralist society.And there's that mask of 'pluralism' slipping away. I fail to see how restricting religious learning to the faith of the child is anything but counter-productive in a modern pluralist society.
You may not want religion banned from school ... but other countries with more 'developed' secular educational systems do ban all references to God and religion on school premises ... and it would be a very short time IMO until the lobby for 'not wasing time in school on religion classes' would have their way ... and we would end up with fully God-less schools, like happend in America, with the public school system.Nope. I have never posted such a thing, so I'd appreciate if you could maintain some level of honesty in the discussion. I am very much in favour of religion being part of the learning in a state school. But I extend it beyond the single faith learning that you so favour. I want kids to have some knowledge of as many religious beliefs as possible. Through knowledge comes understanding.
... so are we talking about not taking over church property and not then banning all Christian leaders, all faith expression and formation from these schools?Nope. You're talking about that. I'm steadfast in discussing secularism but you keep attempting to deflect to some tangent rather than engage with the subject. Any chance you might give it a go now?
If that is the case, why not leave these schools under the patronage they currently have?0 -
I think that I did answer your question ... and as I have allowed one of my children to attend an RCC school (despite my very significant theological differences with this church) means that I wouldn't relocate my family to find a school that meets all of my Christian beliefs.Not what I asked you. Would you like to answer the question I actually asked?
Would you relocate your family to find a Christian school ?
I'm not the kind of person that demands that everybody else must change to accommodate me.0 -
I'm talking about state run public schools. Why is it unreasonable for schools to cover more than a single faith? And how exactly is deciding the syllabus in public schools telling churches what to do?So, you are proposing that the state mandate the religious syllabus in school ... not much separation of church and state there !!!
... churches shouldn't run states ... and states shouldn't run churches ... or devise a religious syllabus for schools!!!
And yet you oppose a public secular school system which suggests that you actually don't.The first thing is that each Christian child should receive is orthodox and truthful faith formation ... after that I'm happy for them to hear about the myriad of 'alternative' beliefs that form the rich tapestry that is our modern pluralist society.
So we fall back once again to you not trusting the state (or your fellow citizens) to maintain a secular school system. Plus, I've already said I support religion classes in the school so I'm not sure why you seem to be hell bent on creating a disagreement where we actually seem to have some degree of common ground, i.e. having a relgion class. We only disagree on the content of said class.You may not want religion banned from school ... but other countries with more 'devloped' secular educational systems do ban all references to God and religion on school premises ... and it would be a very short time IMO until the lobby for 'not wasing time in school on religion classes' would have their way ... and we would end up with fully God-less schools, like happend in America, with the public school system.
Because it's not appropriate for a plurist society to force people into a religious school in order to have an education. The state should be providing a secular public school system.... so are we talking about not taking over church property and not then banning all Christian leaders, all faith expression and formation from these schools?
If that is the case, why not leave these schools under the patronage they currently have?If you can read this, you're too close!
0 -
I think that I did answer your question ... and as I have allowed one of my children to attend an RCC school (despite my very significant theological differences with this church) means that I wouldn't relocate my family to find a school that meets all of my Christian beliefs.
I'm not the kind of person that demands that everybody else must change to accommodate me.
So just to confirm, you're saying that your child is currently being taught that creationism is bunk and that they (and their family) are heretics? And you're okay with that?
If that is the case, then why is such an issue to have secular schools where Islam, Judaism and other religious perspectives as part of the lessons in religion class taught from a neutral perspective?If you can read this, you're too close!
0 -
My child is not being taught any such things ... the subject of Creationism is favourably recieved by most of the school community ... who each Sunday recite their Creed that God Created Heaven and Earth and the RCC is taking a very 'softly-softly' approach on calling anybody (and especially a Born Again Christian) a heretic these days !!!:)So just to confirm, you're saying that your child is currently being taught that creationism is bunk and that they (and their family) are heretics? And you're okay with that?
I don't believe they will be taught religion from a 'neutral' perspective in secular school ... and I don't believe that the state should be engaging in religious formation/education, in the first place.If that is the case, then why is such an issue to have secular schools where Islam, Judaism and other religious perspectives as part of the lessons in religion class taught from a neutral perspective?
I equally don't believe that religion classes would last long in secular schools ... once the transfer of schools took place, the lobby for 'not wasing time in school on religion classes' would have their way, quite rapidly, IMO.0 -
Advertisement
-
The question was to get an answer to what you would do if a school was teaching something you found objectionable to your child. I'm pleased to hear the school is a pleasant experience for your young one. But I am still curious as to what your answer would be to the question.My child is not being taught any such things ... the subject of Creationism is favourably recieved by the school community ... who each Sunday recite their Creed that God Created Heaven and Earth and the RCC is taking a very 'softly-softly' approach on calling anybody (and especially a Born Again Christian) a heretic these days !!!:)
And yet the state currently is engaging in religious formation due to state employees spending time on faith formation during the school day. Are you saying this should no longer be allowed? That's secular talk, JC!I don't believe they will be taught religion from a 'neutral' perspective in secular school ... and I don't believe that the state should be engaging in religious formation.
So you believe that the anti-theist population of Ireland has greater sway than neutrals and religious people over the school syllabus? Care to explain?I equally don't believe that religious classes would last long in secular schools ... once the transfer of schools took place, the lobby for 'not wasing time in school on religion classes' would have their way, quite rapidly, IMO.If you can read this, you're too close!
0
Advertisement