School patronage

recedite

AFAIK private bus companies operating public routes own their own vehicles.
Anyway, Leo specifically said national schools in his analogy. These were originally set up with British govt. public money and subsequently taken over by various religious groups. I suspect the question of who owns them now would be an extremely complicated legal question, but worth investigating. Maybe the takers now own them through "adverse possession" ?

An ideal example to use in a weaselly political speech though, in the sense that it can be argued either way depending on the audience, and its very difficult to actually prove the politician wrong :pac:

magicbastarder

latest story about this ongoing mess:

Documents reveal Catholic influence in State schools

"The Christian belief, ethos and characteristic spirit of our schools is Catholic", she said, "and this needs to be addressed in all policies".

This wouldn't be an extraordinary comment if Tipperary ETB's CEO had been referring to the majority of Tipperary’s post primary schools, which are run by the Catholic church. But she wasn't.

She was talking about the relatively small number of schools in the county that are administered on behalf of the State by Tipperary Education and Training Board, a secular body.

https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2017/1013/912199-schools-religion/

Hotblack Desiato

Disgraceful carry-on from what is a state body.

Also who the feck does this 'diocesan advisor' think they are writing to schools NOT under catholic patronage and telling them what they should be doing regarding religious instruction. He or she can feck right off :mad: and what right do they think they have visiting ETB schools and carrying out what are, in effect, 'inspections'? The sheer arrogance of the RCC is breathtaking.

Typical that they treat parents who exercise their explicit constitutional right to opt their child out of religious indoctrination so disgracefully. They do this not to try to change the minds of the families opting out, but to frighten the others into not following them. They are terrified that particularly at second level, pupils will pressure their parents to opt them out so they can do homework or study rather than waste their time on religious nonsense.

The situation is comepletely untenable and anyone in the RCC with a bit of sense must know this. The tide wiill turn and the way things are going, they are just making the public more and more angry with their stupid carry on. They are painting the RCC and religion in general in a bad light and turning people against them - then they have the cheek to talk fluffly nonsense about tolerance and love? They could try practising a bit of that themselves instead of behaving like bullies.

expectationlost

ACE Ireland‏ @ACE_Ireland Oct 15
The Alliance for Catholic Education (ACE) Ireland @NotreDame


https://twitter.com/ACE_Ireland/status/919509009383739392

Our Director will be speaking @IrishCathNews Education Conference later this month. There is much to discuss ����*♂️http://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2017/1013/912199-schools-religion/ …

...

Michael Nugent

RTE News has published a report that the Minister for Education is to issue new guidelines for children opting out of religion classes in State-run ETB schools.

The Minister was responding to questions by RTE’s Emma O’Kelly about documents that Atheist Ireland obtained under the Freedom of Information Act.

The FOI documents highlight the nod-and-wink approach to the religious ethos of ETB schools, and the resulting obstacles to opting out of religion classes in those schools.

Depending on who you ask, you will be told that the ethos of these State-run schools is Catholic, Christian, inter-denominational, multi-denominational, non-denominational, or a mixture of two or more of these at the same time.

However, in Ireland, these terms seem to be capable of meaning anything, as none of the terms are defined in Irish law, and the meanings used by various Irish educational bodies do not seem to match with the commonly used meanings of the words.

Atheist Ireland has asked the Government to define these terms in primary law, so that parents and children know what type of school they are attending. The Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, and the Forum for Patronage and Pluralism, have also recommended this.

recedite

The above highlights the fact that there are a large number of people holding official positions within the ETB boards around the country who don't understand the concept of the separation of church and state.

Whereas on the ground, there are a large number of school principals and parents who do.
Its this ETB board middle management section that needs to be re-educated, and that can only be done from the top down, ie by Dept. of Education or other centralised state directives. So this is a good move by the Dept.

swampgas

The Tipp. ETB story story is also covered here, with some additional info:

https://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2017/10/etb-legal-duty-school-ethos/

(Apologies if this has already been posted, I didn't see it when scanning back over the thread.)

expectationlost

Richard Bruton replies and say he is going to issue guidelines https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2017-10-25a.365&s=%22foi%22#g368

he tries to say the statement from the ETB chair is from the bygone era of 2015 but she stood over it recently she obviously didn't get the secretary generals message, what is he going to do about that?

still want to hear from local councillors who are on the ETB, anybody from Tipperary contacted them? http://www.tipperarystar.ie/news/home/278348/tipperary-etb-ethos-highlighted.html#.WfCU0EwNNB8.twitter

good work from teach don't preach on this much better then Equates brown nosing

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

Richard Bruton replies and say he is going to issue guidelines https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2017-10-25a.365&s=%22foi%22#g368

There's a very interesting exchange there between Minister Bruton and Paul Murphy TD...

Bruton wrote:

The schools to which the Deputy refers are multidenominational and there will be a circular to make that absolutely crystal clear. That does not mean they are non-denominational. They will accept people of religious belief, of different faiths and of none. They must plan for the wishes of parents and pupils to ensure their timetable reflects those wishes. That is the multidenominational provision we are making. Multidenominational does not mean those of Christian faith are not welcome in the school. They are absolutely welcome but so also are those of other faiths and none. The imperative is to accommodate all of them.

Murphy wrote:

To clarify, a non-denominational school would not be a school that refuses to accept religious students. It is a school that does not have a religious ethos and one to which all people are welcome. It could include religious education but would not have the character of faith formation. Does the Minister agree there is a problem that a Roman Catholic diocesan adviser was assigned to that particular school's religious education policy and has been involved in decisions on the school?
On the opt-out, does the Minister agree that religious education cannot be faith formative? There should not be faith formation in these schools. Religious education and talking about different religions is fine but for State schools to be involved in faith formation is wrong and an opt-out will not deal with it. When it comes to the opt-out, it has to be a non-coercive opt-out. It should not be an opt-out that effectively punishes the students by putting them to the back of the class and not allowing them to do any other work. They should not just be sitting there listening to the lesson. They have to have a real, meaningful alternative.

Nail on the head there, Murphy is spot on. The most obvious solution then is to change the official status of ETB schools from "multidenominatinal" to "non-denominational".
When you think about it, the notion that any state institution would not be officially secular is bizarre.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure that Bruton really gets this (or maybe he just doesn't want to).
We'll wait and see what guidelines he comes up with, but it may end up being a bit of a whitewash.

recedite

More allegations of discrimination by an RC patron, this time against employing "a protestant" and "an unmarried mother".

Most people will probably think "sure what do you expect, its a catholic school". But the law did change in recent years, such that this kind of discrimination was banned. Not in terms of pupil selection, but in terms of employees rights. It appears that the incidents must have happened since the law changed...

‘At this point, I was asked to step outside the room by the chairperson and informed that [named nun who was the school principal] would not countenance the appointment of the internal candidate, given that she had had a baby out of wedlock some number of years earlier.‘I cautioned the chairperson that we could not, under equality legislation, allow this to be a consideration in our deliberations. ‘The chair continued to assert that [same named nun] felt this candidate’s “lifestyle did not reflect the standards of the school and would send out the wrong message to the young female students”.

Not sure why the whistleblower didn't report this to the Equality Authority. Maybe its because the whistleblower was not themselves the victim of the discrimination, and therefore is not eligible to make the complaint.
But obviously the "failed" candidates themselves did not have access to the incriminating testimony of the whistleblower, so they would not have been able to report it, having no proof that the discrimination had ever taken place.
Will the Dept of Education now take some kind of appropriate action themselves, or will they refer the matter to the EA, or will they just bury it in a sea of paperwork?

As usual, the failure to separate church and state is the root cause of the problem.

Hotblack Desiato

The law didn't change though, there's a specific exemption for religious organisations in the so-called 'Equal Status Act'.

recedite

Its complicated, but there was some change in 2015.
Maybe you are right and the two cases mentioned above may have already been covered before that, as they don't relate to sexual orientation.

I'll refer you back to a 2014 post by Peregrinus...

Equality legislation in Ireland is set out in two separate acts; the Employment Equality Act, which deals with equality in employment relationships, and the Equal Status Act, which deals with equality in other areas of life.

The reasons for this are partly historical (we had employment equality legislation decades before we had the wider legislation) and partly practical (employment is already a highly regulated environment with procedures for resolving disputes, enforcement mechanisms, etc, and it makes sense that employment equality legislation should dovetail with all this).

An institution like a school is affected by both Acts. When it comes to hiring, promoting or disciplining staff, the Employment Equality Act (and any exemptions contained in it) applies, but in relation to, e.g., setting admission criteria for students, it’s the Equal Status Act (and its exemptions) that applies.

The current proposal by the Government is to amend the Employment Equality Act.

My understanding of it is that there are loads of amendments to both, and anyone who is so inclined can read up on them here
But the gist of it is that religious/homophobic/family status/race discrimination is currently outlawed for prioritisation/selection of employees in religious schools, but the current Equal Status Act also rolls back equality to some extent in that it allows religious discrimination to be used in the selection of pupils or their parents.

There seems to be no distinction made between a state funded religiously managed school, and an entirely private one.

Michael Nugent

recedite wrote: »

But the gist of it is that religious/homophobic/family status/race discrimination is currently outlawed for prioritisation/selection of employees in religious schools

The government certainly tried to create that impression, but it is not the case. Homophobic/family status/race discrimination is now outlawed, but religious discrimination is still legal.

Essentially, bodies with a religious ethos cannot abuse their right to discriminate on the ground of religion, in order to also discriminate on the other grounds that you mention.

recedite

Michael Nugent wrote: »

The government certainly tried to create that impression, but it is not the case. Homophobic/family status/race discrimination is now outlawed, but religious discrimination is still legal.

Essentially, bodies with a religious ethos cannot abuse their right to discriminate on the ground of religion, in order to also discriminate on the other grounds that you mention.

Well perhaps its easier to understand if we take the above mentioned case of the protestant teacher applying for a job in a catholic school.
And assuming (for clarity) he/she was of the preferred marital status, sexual orientation and race, and was willing to teach religion as per the normal way in the school. My understanding is that it would be illegal to discriminate against him/her on religion alone.

However, if that person's child was applying for a place at the school, the school could quite legally bump them down to the bottom of the priority list, which if it was a popular or "good" state funded school could effectively mean admission was denied.

Michael Nugent

recedite wrote: »

Well perhaps its easier to understand if we take the above mentioned case of the protestant teacher applying for a job in a catholic school.
And assuming (for clarity) he/she was of the preferred marital status, sexual orientation and race, and was willing to teach religion as per the normal way in the school. My understanding is that it would be illegal to discriminate against him/her on religion alone.

No, it is still legal for a school with a religious ethos to discriminate against an employee or potential employee on religion alone. It is no longer legal for such a school to use that exemption to discriminate against him/her on the other grounds.

The test for being allowed to discriminate against an employee or potential employee on the ground of religion is that it is necessary to protect the religious ethos of the school.

Atheist Ireland raised this at several meetings with the Department of Justice when the law was being amended, and they said that the Government was constitutionally obliged to retain the right of schools with a religious ethos to do this, even if that school is funded by the State.

recedite

Michael Nugent wrote: »

No, it is still legal for a school with a religious ethos to discriminate against an employee or potential employee on religion alone.

OK well that wasn't my understanding of it, but if that is correct than it means in one of the two cases as mentioned by the whistleblower above, the alleged discriminator is off the hook.

Michael Nugent

recedite wrote: »

OK well that wasn't my understanding of it, but if that is correct than it means in one of the two cases as mentioned by the whistleblower above, the alleged discriminator is off the hook.

Well, they would still have to prove that the discrimination was necessary to protect their ethos. But it does give them the basis to discriminate if they feel confident that they could get away with it.

In practice, the school is in a powerful position.

Most people won't even have any evidence of whether or why they were discriminated against, most who do won't challenge it legally, and if they do challenge it legally, the school can settle and avoid creating a precedent.

recedite

Michael Nugent wrote: »

Most people won't even have any evidence of whether or why they were discriminated against...

In practice, this would be the main problem.
Even in the case of the two people mentioned above by the whistleblower, the victims might not even know yet that somebody has blown a whistle inside the Dept. of Education re discrimination against them.

expectationlost

hope this is resolved for the complainants satisfaction I also hope it leads to a clean out at the top

The Department of Education has launched a formal investigation into allegations of long-running bullying at the state body in charge of setting the school curriculum. Our reporter Barry Lenihan had exclusive details on this story.

via RTÉ - Drivetime http://ift.tt/2AMQqHA complaints re 2012 on

Investigation needed into bullying complaints at NCCA – Byrne https://www.fiannafail.ie/investigation-needed-into-bullying-complaints-at-ncca-byrne/

Hotblack Desiato

Was at an open evening for a joint patronage ET/ETB secondary recently and saw a few posters around the place for something called "Let's Ignite Teens" (that wouldn't go down too well in the Artane area) which appears to be some sort of Xtian evangelist thing.

The only seemingly relevant search result I can find is this http://ink361.com/app/users/ig-5587770280/lets_ignite_teens/photos

Any other posters were activity based (sport, music, etc) nothing religious so perhaps the other religions in the school don't like to advertise... Just found it a bit weird and it left me wondering whether it was really a student-led initiative (which is ok) or some parent(s) think that they can set up an organisation to proselytise in a multi-d school.

The school offers RE which is optional at junior and senior cycle, we didn't get to talk to anyone about what this involves and their booklet says very little about it either. They have some pretty cool labs though and offer coding, technology and engineering - almost wish I was a kid again!

smacl

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The school offers RE which is optional at junior and senior cycle, we didn't get to talk to anyone about what this involves and their booklet says very little about it either. They have some pretty cool labs though and offer coding, technology and engineering - almost wish I was a kid again!

The second level ET my daughter goes to has a lot of this, and the number of core subjects taken to exam stage is the minimum allowed by DoE to accommodate it. I think it makes for a far superior education and see her developing all sorts of skills, notably around IT, that would make many a college student green with envy. Don't know if you caught David McWilliams' discussion on education in Ireland a couple of days ago. While a bit pop it made some very relevant points and worth a punt. I'd certainly agree that being inquisitive, able collaborate, communicate and enjoying change are far more useful long term vocational and life skills than number of points in the leaving cert.

recedite

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

..it left me wondering whether it was really a student-led initiative (which is ok) or some parent(s) think that they can set up an organisation to proselytise in a multi-d school.

It would be a very fine line between these two. It could be both; some students being encouraged along by their parents. If we had non-denominational state schools, the situation would be clearer. Just say to them "do this stuff if you like, but keep it outside school".

expectationlost

anyone come across ChangeEd http://changed.ie/about/

What is ChangED?

Founded in March 2016, ChangED is Ireland's only think-tank on education. Progressive, cross-sectoral and independent, ChangED fundamentally believes that education is a public good.

Vision:

ChangED will actively pursue a well-resourced education system with the hallmarks of:

equality of opportunity
excellence in teaching and learning
openness and transparency
collaboration and creativity
innovation and the development of transferable skills
critical thinking
wellbeing and resilience
diversity and pluralism
hope
ChangED will inform the public debate about education policy and related fields to encourage a more egalitarian and inclusive society, which empowers, creates and sustains equality of opportunity and social development, shapes active citizens with a global outlook, improves student outcomes, reduces Ireland’s economic inequality, rewards diligence and hard work, and fosters social and economic entrepreneurship.

ChangED will support the right of every child to access an education in any Irish school, free from discrimination.

Acknowledging the important role of the State agencies involved in the provision of education in Ireland, ChangED will engage with all of the educational partners in a spirit of open collegial dialogue, highlighting the need for evidence-based curricular reform at all levels.

etc

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

anyone come across ChangeEd http://changed.ie/about/ etc

No. Its not clear who is behind it.

Bristolscale7

recedite wrote: »

No. Its not clear who is behind it.

Scroll down, it lists the people involved. Looks like the former head of the School of Education at the University of Ulster and one of his students.

Hotblack Desiato

Maybe they should address the problems with the education system within their own jurisdiction.

recedite

OK I scrolled down

It looks interesting.
CEO is a Gaeilgeoir from Tipperary.

Patron seems to be an all round smart guy, formerly a principal at two N. Ireland secondary schools and lecturer in organic chemistry at Ulster University. I like that use of the word "patron".

Numerous advisors from ROI including teachers, a representative of the bio-medical/pharma industry, and a former advisor to Ruari Quinn.

The use the .ie web domain instead of .UK or .com and all references are to "Ireland" as opposed to RoI or N. Ireland.

Founded in 2016, the year that NI voted against Brexit, and around the time that it became apparent that the longstanding automatic unionist majority at Stormont is finished forever.

Maybe these people are playing the long game. IMO a United Ireland is a real possibility now, and if that happens one of the most important issues will be a total revamp of the education system on this island to make it acceptable to all. When and if that happens, we will be very glad if it turns out we had smart people planning ahead.

smacl

recedite wrote: »

Maybe these people are playing the long game. IMO a United Ireland is a real possibility now, and if that happens one of the most important issues will be a total revamp of the education system on this island to make it acceptable to all. When and if that happens, we will be very glad if it turns out we had smart people planning ahead.

Not sure that there is a short game when it comes to education. While I'd have no huge issue with a united Ireland in the broadest terms, the thoughts of having the likes of Arlene & Co lumped in with Leo, Mehole, Mary Lou and that other bunch of randomers that are our current glorious leadership does not fill me with confidence. I may just have to consider abandoning the pale at that stage and emigrating to the people's republic of West Cork.

recedite

smacl wrote: »

I may just have to consider abandoning the pale at that stage and emigrating to the people's republic of West Cork.

Why not just go the whole hog, and seek solace in the arms of the Healy Rae boys out on the end of some peninsula in Kerry? :pac:

smacl

recedite wrote: »

Why not just go the whole hog, and seek solace in the arms of the Healy Rae boys out on the end of some peninsula in Kerry? :pac:

Tempting, do love the Kingdom. I'll pick up a ceap, learn the banjo, and buy a small holding just as soon as they bring the Dart to Dingle