School patronage

Nick Park

smacl wrote: »

I don't know about the bins, but historically religious missions have followed aggressive imperial expansions and used education as a tool to bring new subjects into the flock.

Some certainly have, and loads haven't. But, having added my tuppence worth about the need for secular schools, I'll bow out of this thread and leave you guys alone to rehearse your gripes about how awful religion is.

smacl

Nick Park wrote: »

Some certainly have, and loads haven't. But, having added my tuppence worth about the need for secular schools, I'll bow out of this thread and leave you guys alone to rehearse your gripes about how awful religion is.

Welcome to the dark side, help yourself to a slice of pizza.

expectationlost

Dublin and Dun Laoghaire ETB state schools have mandatory religion classes https://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2017/12/dublin-dun-laoghaire-etb/

this draft document for religious education is terrible, as I always fear we get more religion not less. its equates Christmas and Eid with charles darwin day for the atheist/humanist , I don't give a rats arse about charles darwin day.

xmas and eid are festivals based on time of year, explain that, don't ginny up another day for the humanists.

also yes have a graduation mass but add a poem so it doesn't exlucde the non-religious

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

I don't give a rats arse about charles darwin day.

The guidelines document also says that students may opt out of religious education, but may not study any other subject during the opt out time. Presumably then the irreligious student would study the writings of Charles Darwin for the 2 hours per week, as they would not be allowed to study maths or science.

Also an interesting little dispute has been uncovered there...

... in October 2017, there was a disagreement between Dublin and Dun Laoghaire ETB and the Catholic Church about the use of school premises, after school hours, for Catholic Instruction and Sacramental Preparation.
The Principal of Lucan Community School was refusing to allow the Catholic Church to do this, and she said that this was the policy of the ETB.
We will seek clarification about how this issue was resolved. But however it is resolved, it shows that it is possible for state-run ETB schools to stand up to the Catholic Church if they choose to do so.

The parish priest in his letter complained that the local ET school was complying with his "requirements", but the ETB school was not.

I think this all backs up the view that there is considerable leeway locally around the whole issue of religion in modern ETB schools. No real guidance has been issued in recent decades, and therefore individual school principals are making it up as they go along.

This guideline document bemoans the fact that no guidelines have been issued since the 1970's (apparently without irony). Back then the Dept. of Education was issuing guidelines to the (then VEC) schools "recommending" 2 hours per week of religious education.
But now it seems they have a different command structure and they issue their own guidelines, such as this document.
Could they not have included in this document the simple statement; "we no longer recommend 2 hours of mandatory religious education per week"?

They are like some Japanese soldiers living on a remote pacific island in the 1950's, refusing to surrender until they get the direct order from Tokyo.

lazygal

Some ET schools carry out faith formation during the school day, it's a legacy issue.

recedite

lazygal wrote: »

Some ET schools carry out faith formation during the school day, it's a legacy issue.

AFAIK all ET schools would facilitate it after school hours, on their premises. Perhaps some do during school hours too.
But the ETB school as mentioned above, declined to allow even that.

Perhaps the ETB should recognise now that probably no orders are coming from Dept of Education or NCCA regarding religion in second level schools, and maybe they should now come up with their own common set of guidelines to replace the outdated 1970s ones?

On the other hand, maybe its best left to individual school principals, much as seems to be happening now? At least they would know "the lie of the land" in their own areas. I suspect that the school in Lucan might be in one of those areas where most people just don't attend mass, and the priest is making a last ditch attempt to capture an audience.

lazygal

recedite wrote: »

AFAIK all ET schools would facilitate it after school hours, on their premises.

AFAIK it's down to individual schools and they get to decide on what to do in terms of allowing indoctrination. So if a vote was taken and the result agreed a school could decide not to allow it after school hours.

Hotblack Desiato

lazygal wrote: »

Some ET schools carry out faith formation during the school day, it's a legacy issue.

No ET school does this.

recedite wrote: »

On the other hand, maybe its best left to individual school principals, much as seems to be happening now?

Parents and pupils shouldn't have to play the lottery of 'is the principal of a supposedly secular school a religious nutter or not.'

robindch

lazygal wrote: »

Some ET schools carry out faith formation during the school day, it's a legacy issue.

So far as I'm aware, no ET schools do religion in between other topics - the approach is to have it as an after school activity if you want it - and some do, though in my experience, these good people are never asked why they want to send their kids to a school which is not controlled by a religious organization, but then want their kids religified.

Hotblack Desiato

And because of them, non-catholics can't get a place and have to send their kids to the catholic school - you couldn't make it up.

lazygal

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

No ET school does this.

I know of one in Cork that does it. It is a legacy issue, and some parents have removed their children from the school because of it.

lazygal

robindch wrote: »

So far as I'm aware, no ET schools do religion in between other topics - the approach is to have it as an after school activity if you want it - and some do, though in my experience, these good people are never asked why they want to send their kids to a school which is not controlled by a religious organization, but then want their kids religified.

There is at least one that does, in Cork. It was discussed on a private parents forum I'm in and parents have been told it is a legacy issue and therefore won't be changed unless there is a vote to do so.

waterfaerie

A lot of them seem to be doing nativity plays, too. It's not full on indoctrination but I don't think they should be doing them.

lazygal

waterfaerie wrote: »

A lot of them seem to be doing nativity plays, too. It's not full on indoctrination but I don't think they should be doing them.

They claim this is part of the learn together programme covering christianity which IMO is a total distortion of what equality based education should be. Celebrating the nativity is indoctrination no matter what way you look at it. Thankfully we haven't faced this in our ET school, but I know every year there are complaints about how the line between education about a faith blurs when children celebrate faith based occasions, be it Diwali or Christmas, in the classroom or in other ways.

waterfaerie

lazygal wrote: »

They claim this is part of the learn together programme covering christianity which IMO is a total distortion of what equality based education should be. Celebrating the nativity is indoctrination no matter what way you look at it. Thankfully we haven't faced this in our ET school, but I know every year there are complaints about how the line between education about a faith blurs when children celebrate faith based occasions, be it Diwali or Christmas, in the classroom or in other ways.

Yes, it is a total distortion. Learning about something is one thing. When you start singing religious songs and putting on a performance, you're celebrating as a participant, not learning about the religious event as an observer.

lazygal

waterfaerie wrote: »

Yes, it is a total distortion. Learning about something is one thing. When you start singing religious songs and putting on a performance, you're celebrating as a participant, not learning about the religious event as an observer.

I find there is a blind spot about this. Singing a religious song is celebrating that religion. I would rather a totally secular system. We do celebrate 'Christmas' in our own way at home but I have no need for any school to do the same.

silverharp

waterfaerie wrote: »

Yes, it is a total distortion. Learning about something is one thing. When you start singing religious songs and putting on a performance, you're celebrating as a participant, not learning about the religious event as an observer.

just butting in so I might be missing something but I disagree. my wife for example is in a choir, as comes with the territory half the music is religious but its just about the singing, not trying to promote anything. if its kids and a nativity play i'd just see it as the kids having a chance to perform in front of an audience.

lazygal

silverharp wrote: »

just butting in so I might be missing something but I disagree. my wife for example is in a choir, as comes with the territory half the music is religious but its just about the singing, not trying to promote anything. if its kids and a nativity play i'd just see it as the kids having a chance to perform in front of an audience.

Your wife chooses to sing religious songs. I'm in a choir myself. It's totally different to a school which is supposed to be equality based using religious elements designed for doctrinal purposes with children. Children shouldn't have to celebrate any religion in any school.

smacl

lazygal wrote: »

They claim this is part of the learn together programme covering christianity which IMO is a total distortion of what equality based education should be. Celebrating the nativity is indoctrination no matter what way you look at it. Thankfully we haven't faced this in our ET school, but I know every year there are complaints about how the line between education about a faith blurs when children celebrate faith based occasions, be it Diwali or Christmas, in the classroom or in other ways.

I don't agree, putting on a bit about the nativity or Diwali as part of Christmas play isn't indoctrination once it is done on the basis of 'this is a traditional celebration for some people' as opposed to 'this is what we believe'. Suggesting otherwise would be akin to positing that including 'Tir na nOg' in the school play would be indoctrinating a belief in the goddess Danu. Refusing to let the class explore the myriad of traditions and belief systems that are out there is, in my opinion, detrimental and amounts to needless censorship. While I'm no fan of organised religion, pretending it doesn't exist is also nuts.

lazygal wrote: »

I find there is a blind spot about this. Singing a religious song is celebrating that religion. I would rather a totally secular system.

It really isn't though, anymore than humming some snoop dogg makes you a gangsta. I'd regularly listen to music that is religiously inspired or themed, and can enjoy the tunes and the passion without buying the words as truth. I don't sing it (apart from when drink is taken) because I'm a lousy singer, but would if I could without hesitation.

We do celebrate 'Christmas' in our own way at home but I have no need for any school to do the same.

Our daughters ET is going down the whole religiously neutral, happy holiday, thing this year. A bit of a nonsense really, when most of the kids are talking about Christmas. We'll have Eric Cartman in a sari atop our Christmas tree at home again this year.

lazygal

There is no way performing in a nativity play isn't indoctrination. It's a pretty awful message, a child forced into pregnancy is dragged away from her home in late stage pregnancy. Not a message I'd be happy for my daughter to participate in as a five year old. Adults who choose to pick parts of religion they like are entirely different.

silverharp

lazygal wrote: »

Your wife chooses to sing religious songs. I'm in a choir myself. It's totally different to a school which is supposed to be equality based using religious elements designed for doctrinal purposes with children. Children shouldn't have to celebrate any religion in any school.

it comes down to how you interpret it. I just see it as a chance for kids to perform. I can still vaguely remember my 5 or 6 year old self and if its the church's way of indoctrinating then it's going to fail. On the other hand even if its a bit sentimental its nice to have a set of traditions to pass on to the next generation. So in our atheist household we go to xmas concerts in churches, there is a good one in St Annes this Sat at 1pm in town , light Advent candles and the kids have over the years have been involved with whatever the school was doing.

smacl

lazygal wrote: »

There is no way performing in a nativity play isn't indoctrination. It's a pretty awful message, a child forced into pregnancy is dragged away from her home in late stage pregnancy. Not a message I'd be happy for my daughter to participate in as a five year old. Adults who choose to pick parts of religion they like are entirely different.

I don't agree. If you accept that indoctrination as 'the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically', acting out a religious scene doesn't make the actors any less critical of the content. If anything, I'd suggest it provides a good opportunity to critically examine that content. Once you start doing this for multiple belief systems on an equal basis, those involved will question all of the belief systems equally and quickly arrive at the conclusion that they're all equally likely to be bogus. Refusing to examine traditions and belief systems because you don't hold those beliefs to my mind is as nonsensical as refusing to study wars in history because you're a pacifist.

waterfaerie

silverharp wrote: »

I just see it as a chance for kids to perform.

They don't need a religious celebration as a chance to perform. They could perform anything. The only reason they choose to do a nativity is to please those who can't cope with change from "tradition".

waterfaerie

smacl wrote: »

I don't agree. If you accept that indoctrination as 'the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically', acting out a religious scene doesn't make the actors any less critical of the content. If anything, I'd suggest it provides a good opportunity to critically examine that content. Once you start doing this for multiple belief systems on an equal basis, those involved will question all of the belief systems equally and quickly arrive at the conclusion that they're all equally likely to be bogus. Refusing to examine traditions and belief systems because you don't hold those beliefs to my mind is as nonsensical as refusing to study wars in history because you're a pacifist.

If that's what they did it would be different. Do they put equal effort into and emphasis on each religious event every year? It seems to me like a lot of the ET schools do a token Diwali thing one year, Ramadan another year etc. but the nativity is the big one and it's done every year.

smacl

waterfaerie wrote: »

If that's what they did it would be different. Do they put equal effort into and emphasis on each religious event every year? It seems to me like a lot of the ET schools do a token Diwali thing one year, Ramadan another year etc. but the nativity is the big one and it's done every year.

Wasn't my experience of the ET primary my two kids went to, the year they did Diwali there was no nativity play AFAIR. The ET secondary my youngest now goes to isn't doing either and is running a kids talent show instead.

Could well be different in other ET schools as they are largely autonomous and look to meet the parents preferences once they're within the broader ET ethos.

smacl

waterfaerie wrote: »

They don't need a religious celebration as a chance to perform. They could perform anything. The only reason they choose to do a nativity is to please those who can't cope with change from "tradition".

A bit like Santa, the tooth Fairy and the Easter bunny so. Sometimes tradition can be difficult to avoid.

Hotblack Desiato

We were pleasantly surprised to discover that our kids' CoI school doesn't do a nativity play - they do non-religious plays at the end of the school year, different ones every year.

Judging by the number of ET kids doing communion, there are a lot of bouncy castle catholic parents in ETs and it's unfair for them to expect the school to carry out religious traditions and events on the same basis an RC school would. Why didn't they enrol in the RC school if that's so important to them?

Ironically none of the various RC schools my wife and I went to ever had nativity plays. Is this another example of a relatively recently manufactured 'tradition' ?

silverharp

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

We were pleasantly surprised to discover that our kids' CoI school doesn't do a nativity play - they do non-religious plays at the end of the school year, different ones every year.

Judging by the number of ET kids doing communion, there are a lot of bouncy castle catholic parents in ETs and it's unfair for them to expect the school to carry out religious traditions and events on the same basis an RC school would. Why didn't they enrol in the RC school if that's so important to them?

Ironically none of the various RC schools my wife and I went to ever had nativity plays. Is this another example of a relatively recently manufactured 'tradition' ?

I don't remember them as a kid and kids school don't do them, they go more for the music end. Seems like an American thing or maybe a English thing?

waterfaerie

smacl wrote: »

A bit like Santa, the tooth Fairy and the Easter bunny so. Sometimes tradition can be difficult to avoid.

I intend to try, anyway. There will be no invisible being coercing my daughter to "be good" with the threat of reward or punishment, be it God or Santa.

Funny, the Easter bunny was never a thing even just 20 years ago so it's not really a tradition, nor was decorating the house for Easter. The "traditions" get more and more in your face each year until, as you say, it's difficult to avoid them.

recedite

smacl wrote: »

acting out a religious scene doesn't make the actors any less critical of the content. If anything, I'd suggest it provides a good opportunity to critically examine that content. Once you start doing this for multiple belief systems on an equal basis, those involved will question all of the belief systems equally and quickly arrive at the conclusion that they're all equally likely to be bogus.

silverharp wrote: »

it comes down to how you interpret it. I just see it as a chance for kids to perform.

IMO it is not appropriate to participate in a religious celebration unless (a) you are properly committed to the religion or (b) somebody who is a bona fide member of the religion has invited you to celebrate it with them.

Are the ET schools not worried that they are getting into a form of cultural appropriation by adopting every religious cultural festival as their own?

One of my kids was in a Gaelscoil at primary level, and they decided to have a "carol service" in addition to the nativity play. I casually mentioned to the principal that while a "carol service" is the main event at a CoI school, it is a specific liturgical event which involves having a clergyman, prayers, and a specific format. "But we won't be having any of that" she said", "we'll just have the carols".
"Then its not a carol service, its a carol singing event" I said.

Anyway, at that point I could see I was becoming a persona non grata, so I dropped it, and the "Carol Service" became a new annual "tradition" at the school.