School patronage

recedite

In other news, school skirts are still too short.

A Muslim campaign group says school uniforms should accommodate Islamic dress codes by allowing girls to wear full-length skirts, long-sleeved shirts and headscarves.

How about they wear trousers?

lazygal

I remember some girls in my old school deliberately chose extra long skirt lengths, some sort of style statement no doubt. Schools should drop uniforms altogether, a giant waste of time and expense.

silverharp

recedite wrote: »

In other news, school skirts are still too short.

How about they wear trousers?

maybe Dr Ali should look the other way , hes not going to come out of this well if he says it distracts him driving :pac:

smacl

lazygal wrote: »

I remember some girls in my old school deliberately chose extra long skirt lengths, some sort of style statement no doubt. Schools should drop uniforms altogether, a giant waste of time and expense.

My eldest would have loved a longer skirt this morning or preferably some tracksuit bottoms, not skirt weather, particularly cycling. School uniforms are a total joke in this day and age, and quite a bit harder on the girls.

recedite

On the occasional "no uniform day" there is huge peer pressure to wear designer labels etc.. so I think its a lot easier on everybody not to have think about what they are going to wear for the other 99% of the time.
Trousers should definitely be an officially available option for girls IMO.

What Dr. Selim wants though, is an islamic dress code to be an officially available option in non-islamic schools. That's a step too far IMO.

smacl

recedite wrote: »

On the occasional "no uniform day" there is huge peer pressure to wear designer labels etc.. so I think its a lot easier on everybody not to have think about what they are going to wear for the other 99% of the time.

Not in my experience, having gone to a school myself without school uniforms, my youngest in a secondary without uniforms and my eldest in a school with uniforms. No uniforms does not mean no dress policy, the schools can still set reasonable boundaries on what can and cannot be worn.

Mark Hamill

recedite wrote: »

On the occasional "no uniform day" there is huge peer pressure to wear designer labels etc..

Amazing how that pressure doesn't reappear at the end of the school day when kids get changed and go out and play, isn't it?

recedite wrote: »

so I think its a lot easier on everybody not to have think about what they are going to wear for the other 99% of the time.

If only we had institutions where we could teach kids life skills, like how to decide their next days clothes the night before. Its amazing how any parent can survive the weekend, given the hassle it apparently is to dress kids daily with regular clothes.

lazygal

My children have no uniform. There's no competition, from what I can see. I recall vast amounts of time wasted on totally pointless uniform inspections in primary and secondary school. One girl got in trouble for wearing navy instead of green socks. :rolleyes:
There is no proven educational benefit to uniforms. They are more about the wishes of schools to brand themselves and local shops to keep money for poor quality apparel coming in. Anyone who thinks there's competition in non uniform schools should ask the pupils. Because there was such little self expression allowed in my primary and secondary schools, we focused a lot of attention on trivia like school bags and shoes, and there was competition about having the 'right' ones.

silverharp

my kids don't have a uniform , its cheaper for sure and there is no competition brand wise even though most of the parents would be well off, mostly a sea of grey and black when I am ever there. I couldn't get worked up either way and it wouldn't affect where I send my kids.

evolving_doors

I think people generally advocate whatever system they come through.
People in mixed schools say mixed is better.
People who didn't have a uniform say it's better.
It goes around in circles. Every single year during silly season the minister of the day puts out a bold statement saying they were going to tackle the issue... cue radio stations and vox pops asking what we think and to text in our thoughts. And eaten bread is soon forgotten.

I don't think Ali is against uniforms per se.
It's just currently not the type of uniform that HE wants.
Getting away from the length of the skirt and back to religion... I Heard him on the radio this morning and he said he didn't approve of the crest (with religious imagery) when there are people of different faiths in the school!
Agree or disagree?

recedite

evolving_doors wrote: »

I Heard him on the radio this morning and he said he didn't approve of the crest (with religious imagery) when there are people of different faiths in the school!
Agree or disagree?

IMO a cross on the crest is merely a symbol of the religious "ethos" of the school. You would be fooling yourself if you objected to the crest but were quite happy with the religious indoctrination inside the school.
This lad however, can't object to religious indoctrination per se, as he is closely associated with the islamic school in Clonskeagh. All he can do is chip away at other religions and "their" schools.

rainbow kirby

evolving_doors wrote: »

I think people generally advocate whatever system they come through.
People in mixed schools say mixed is better.
People who didn't have a uniform say it's better

Speak for yourself, I'd happily burn every last bit of the all girls RC convent school experience. Will be avoiding RC schools like the plague for my kids.

lazygal

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Speak for yourself, I'd happily burn every last bit of the all girls RC convent school experience. Will be avoiding RC schools like the plague for my kids.

Me too. Now mine are in an educate together I'm happy every day they're not being exposed to the Catholic cult I grew up with. I'm going to ensure their secondary school experience involves no religious schools if at all possible too.

smacl

evolving_doors wrote: »

People who didn't have a uniform say it's better.

Those of us who have girls in different schools where one has uniforms and the other doesn't know that no uniforms are better. The reasons, in order of priority are as follows;

- They're not fit for purpose. Wearing the same clothes every day, regardless of weather or season is plain dumb. Skirts are not suitable outdoor wear in the pissings of rain mid-winter when cycling, walking to a bus-stop or waiting for a bus. Having to go out with bare legs from the knee down in your leaving cert year when a significant proportion of your schoolmates are out with the flu is utter bollox.

- The clothing is overpriced and of very poor quality, essentially amounting to a highly inefficient back-door funding mechanism for our grossly underfunded schools. This also places an undue strain on less well off parents and children, who will try to get away with too few sets of uniforms that are often mis-sized where they aren't replaced when they should be.

- The uniforms are ugly, disliked intensely by the children and dehumanising as a result.

waterfaerie

smacl wrote: »

Those of us who have girls in different schools where one has uniforms and the other doesn't know that no uniforms are better. The reasons, in order of priority are as follows;

- They're not fit for purpose. Wearing the same clothes every day, regardless of weather or season is plain dumb. Skirts are not suitable outdoor wear in the pissings of rain mid-winter when cycling, walking to a bus-stop or waiting for a bus. Having to go out with bare legs from the knee down in your leaving cert year when a significant proportion of your schoolmates are out with the flu is utter bollox.

- The clothing is overpriced and of very poor quality, essentially amounting to a highly inefficient back-door funding mechanism for our grossly underfunded schools. This also places an undue strain on less well off parents and children, who will try to get away with too few sets of uniforms that are often mis-sized where they aren't replaced when they should be.

- The uniforms are ugly, disliked intensely by the children and dehumanising as a result.

Yes and add to that that there is no purpose to them other than to impose conformity and obedience to authority and suppress individual thought.

mikhail

waterfaerie wrote: »

Yes and add to that that there is no purpose to them other than to impose conformity and obedience to authority and suppress individual thought.

I don't have a horse in this race, but the justification I recall from childhood was that kids would pressure each other to conform to fashion. Parent would then be pressured to spend more on clothes, and kids who didn't get the trendy stuff would be bullied. No idea if there's much merit to it, but I remember how snobby and cruel kids could be.

lazygal

mikhail wrote: »

I don't have a horse in this race, but the justification I recall from childhood was that kids would pressure each other to conform to fashion. Parent would then be pressured to spend more on clothes, and kids who didn't get the trendy stuff would be bullied. No idea if there's much merit to it, but I remember how snobby and cruel kids could be.

I don't see much merit in this line of thinking. When you're wearing your normal clothes every day, and everyone else is too, there's no big deal about what you're wearing. There's lots of jeans and hoodies and converse type shoes in the older classes in our school. The nearest non uniform secondary school has a school hoody which is optional and most wear jeans and runners or boots with it, or just their own tops.
We had uniforms in primary and secondary school and there was a huge level of pressure to have the 'right' shoes/bag/pencil case/whatever wasn't a uniform item and I used to dread a non uniform day at second level. The uniform was more about branding for the school and a way to impose some mad sort of discipline, while keeping a ****ty 'drapery' shop in business than any educational benefit.

Odhinn

lazygal wrote: »

I don't see much merit in this line of thinking. When you're wearing your normal clothes every day, and everyone else is too, there's no big deal about what you're wearing. There's lots of jeans and hoodies and converse type shoes in the older classes in our school. The nearest non uniform secondary school has a school hoody which is optional and most wear jeans and runners or boots with it, or just their own tops.
We had uniforms in primary and secondary school and there was a huge level of pressure to have the 'right' shoes/bag/pencil case/whatever wasn't a uniform item and I used to dread a non uniform day at second level. The uniform was more about branding for the school and a way to impose some mad sort of discipline, while keeping a ****ty 'drapery' shop in business than any educational benefit.

Load of shite, whatever gender is involved.

Mark Hamill

evolving_doors wrote: »

I think people generally advocate whatever system they come through.
People in mixed schools say mixed is better.
People who didn't have a uniform say it's better.

I went to single sex schools that required uniforms and I consider both of those notions to be daft. You walk into university or the workplace after 14 years of single sex and uniformed education and you have to deal with other sex around you and dressing yourself every morning. Maybe, if these are recognised as being potential issues for kids, we should teach kids how to approach and solve them, rather than pretend they don't exist?

evolving_doors

Who makes the decision to keep the uniform tradition? from my experience the uniform is on the agenda for a lot of parents' councils meeting at least every year.
It's not just the school management... but the parents who have a say in keeping it or change...

It's somewhat easy for educate togethers as their adoption of a non-uniform is in itself a uniform approach.

Anyhow from my own point of view... it's one less thing to be fighting with the kids about in the morning.
One Uniform you can get away with wearing a few times. When kids are not in uniform during the summer the washing machine is on overtime.

Hotblack Desiato

As far as I'm concerned "tradition" = "we can't think of a rational reason to do this so we fall back on the excuse it's always been done this way"

The nearest non-RC secondary to us is a joint patronage ET/ETB that has been going for I think 3 years now. They started off as non-uniform but then the parents voted for uniform - wouldn't be my choice - wouldn't stop me enrolling my kids there either but all the kids going to the ETs in its catchment to the north of this school will probably fill it. Where we are, to the south of it, there are NO ETs. But we have not one, but two, gaelscoils. yay.

evolving_doors

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned "tradition" = "we can't think of a rational reason to do this so we fall back on the excuse it's always been done this way"

The nearest non-RC secondary to us is a joint patronage ET/ETB that has been going for I think 3 years now. They started off as non-uniform but then the parents voted for uniform - wouldn't be my choice - wouldn't stop me enrolling my kids there either but all the kids going to the ETs in its catchment to the north of this school will probably fill it. Where we are, to the south of it, there are NO ETs. But we have not one, but two, gaelscoils. yay.

As regards tradition, tradition can be created. All traditions have to start somewhere.

Out of interest, was that the ET that featured in the rte documentary 2 yrs ago? Most of their meetings appeared to be haggling over problems with the non-uniform (although the parents and teachers seemed way more stressed out about it than the kids).

smacl

evolving_doors wrote: »

It's somewhat easy for educate togethers as their adoption of a non-uniform is in itself a uniform approach
.
.
When kids are not in uniform during the summer the washing machine is on overtime.

Certainly not an issue in the ET schools mine have attended. Dress code basically comes down to non-provocative clothing (no belly tops, short shorts, offensive slogans on clothes, easy on the make-up and bling jewellery etc...). Not sure I get the comment about the washing machine, as my daughter who's got a uniform has to change clothes when she comes in whereas my other daughter who doesn't wear a uniform stays in the same clothes.

Hotblack Desiato

evolving_doors wrote: »

Out of interest, was that the ET that featured in the rte documentary 2 yrs ago? Most of their meetings appeared to be haggling over problems with the non-uniform (although the parents and teachers seemed way more stressed out about it than the kids).

No not that school. I think that one was the first ET secondary (no ETB involvement).

Yes it seemed weird to me how uptight some of the parents were about uniform. You'd think that if they were prepared to question one of the unquestioned assumptions of their own schooling (religion) they'd be prepared to question the others.

recedite

smacl wrote: »

Not sure I get the comment about the washing machine, as my daughter who's got a uniform has to change clothes when she comes in whereas my other daughter who doesn't wear a uniform stays in the same clothes.

Ah yes, but the uniform does not go into the wash when she gets home. whereas I'm sure your other daughter would be under some peer pressure not to wear the same outer garments all week.

In primary school my kids had no uniform, but at some stage there was a vote to introduce one. The vote went just over 50% in favour of change, but the uniform was never adopted because they had said in advance it would have to be a bigger majority (I think 55 or 60%) otherwise the remoaners would want a new chance at a referendum every year (kind of like Brexit). I voted for no change.
Now in secondary, they have a uniform. Overall IMO, the best is no uniform at primary, but uniform at secondary. Its around 6th class primary that the fashion snobbery starts to kick in.

smacl

recedite wrote: »

Ah yes, but the uniform does not go into the wash when she gets home. whereas I'm sure your other daughter would be under some peer pressure not to wear the same outer garments all week.

Uniforms do have to get washed just as often as other clothes. Assuming equivalent degrees of cleanliness, how many sets any one child has determines the regularity of washing, which in turn comes down to how much money parents are able and willing to commit to uniforms. My other daughter will wear the same outer layer (featuring the much adored Jon Snow) until such time as we pin her down and peel it off her. Not all girls behave like extras from High School Musical.

In primary school my kids had no uniform, but at some stage there was a vote to introduce one. The vote went just over 50% in favour of change, but the uniform was never adopted because they had said in advance it would have to be a bigger majority (I think 55 or 60%) otherwise the remoaners would want a new chance at a referendum every year (kind of like Brexit). I voted for no change.
Now in secondary, they have a uniform. Overall IMO, the best is no uniform at primary, but uniform at secondary. Its around 6th class primary that the fashion snobbery starts to kick in.

Try using that logic mid-winter to a teenage girl that cycles everywhere, including to and from school. School uniforms are unsuitable for outdoor activity in bad weather. Worth comparing them to the likes of army uniforms which are designed to be functional and hard-wearing rather than highlighting gender differences while making a few bob in backhanders. Now if mummy and daddy drop their little darlings to the school gates every morning it is not an issue, but even where parents are willing, kids of a certain age want, deserve and benefit from being a bit more independent.

recedite

smacl wrote: »

Uniforms do have to get washed just as often as other clothes. Assuming equivalent degrees of cleanliness..

Yes, but sometimes stuff goes into the wash prematurely. So while little miss smacl may be in love with Jon Snow right now, later on she may be changing her outfit every second day. So not everything that goes into the laundry basket in some households actually needs to be washed. I'll even admit to regularly "helping out" by taking stuff out of the laundry basket and returning it directly to the owner's wardrobe, without them noticing it hasn't been washed :pac:

BTW for the other one who cycles to school, it might be worth enquiring from the school if trousers are an official option. It may be that the girl actually wants to wear the skirt/kilt because wearing trousers would be "weird". Just saying. Or just wear tracksuit bottoms for the journey in.

Hotblack Desiato

Didn't think journalists were teen idol material. Strange world we live in...

recedite

He looks different without the sword and shiny armour

Cherrymount41

Hi
I’m totally jumping in here because I googled ETB and Diocesan Advisor and this page was thrown up so I joined.
Anyway I’ve found out that the DA is visiting my kid’s ETB school soon to “inspect” it. I presumed because it was multi-denominational school it was not under the RCC. What do you think?