School patronage

expectationlost

expectationlost wrote: »

saw this op-ed in the journal http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/catholic-schools-are-the-most-sought-after-in-their-area-by-families-of-all-faiths-and-none-4131933-Jul2018/ and have noticed this group "Notre Dame’s Alliance for Catholic Education – Ireland initiative." a few times recently. The op-ed is by Jonathan Tiernan Director of the University of Notre Dame’s Alliance for Catholic Education – Ireland initiative. which is https://ace.nd.edu/ireland/mission Its wierd that Jonathan Tiernan worked for the One Foundation https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathantiernan2016/de which funded Equate and was trying to secularise schools (in a brown nosing way) I was trying to trace who is funding him now, it might be coke money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Keough this is the connection between them all is foroige https://documents.tips/documents/investment-case-study.html founder of the Alliance for Catholic Education Sean McGraw https://politicalscience.nd.edu/faculty/faculty-list/sean-mcgraw-csc/ benefited from Seventh-day Adventist Church cereal money too

similar op-ed in the Irish Times today

expectationlost

Labour have suggested a constitutional convention to deal with religion and education (and health and social services?)

i guess its a clever move a party thats going to continue to be small and find it difficult to get its polcies implemented unless and even if it joins the coming FF/FG minority government
https://www.labour.ie/news/blog/2018/07/27/time-to-separate-church-and-state-in-education

although what Im most disappointed with is that while suggesting a constitutional convention to have a discussion about what possible I think they should put forward their own bill now too. They should draft and submit and publish a referendum bill saying exactly how they would change the constitution, it woudn't undermine a convention.

There were problems with the previous constitutional convention because it tended towards self-selection in that those interested in the topics and willing to give up months of weekends were likely to be Labour interested in political reform supporters, some sort of small pay has suggested as way to counter that. There also problems with lazy and unethical the recruiters.


Atheist Ireland https://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2018/08/citizens-assembly-religion-schools/ have made statement on this they argue that its not really the consitution thats the problem but governments lack of enforcement of opt-out and giving religions varrious legislative opt-outs. For science knows what reason AI refuse to consistently link to source documentation so heres the 1995 Constitutional Review Group Report they reference https://web.archive.org/web/20120419054237/http://www.constitution.ie/reports/crg.pdf

robindch

The RENUA leader, one John Leahy, announces that there's a secret plan afoot within the halls of government to "excise the church from primary schools". This, Mr Leahy claims, is being led by "a Dublin 4 set of sectarian secularists."

More on this item from Offaly here:

https://www.offalyexpress.ie/news/home/329106/offaly-councillor-claims-catholic-schools-are-under-attack-by-dublin-4-set-of-sectarian-secularists.html

Offaly Express wrote:

RENUA Ireland leader and Offaly County Councillor, John Leahy, has expressed 'grave concerns' over what he describes as 'the state's secret plan to excise the church from primary schools'.

Cllrr Leahy commented, "it is time to sound the alert to protect Faith based primary schools in Ireland."

He explains that he is pluralist but adds that pluralism 'cuts both ways'. He claims that he has uncovered a plan to rid faith from schools.

"I am gravely concerned that a secret plan now exists in the higher echelons of the Department of Education to excise Faith Schools from the educational landscape."

Cllr Leahy goes on to explain that his party will try to retain Catholic Schools. "RENUA Ireland wishes to make it clear that we will fight within our communities to fight for the retention of Catholic Schools against any attack by a Dublin 4 set of sectarian secularists."

He went on to explain how believes primary school is not just about exams.

"School, particularly primary school is about more than exam results. It is about developing character and moral formation. It is also about protecting children from the dangers and threats posed by an uncontrolled digital landscape."

He concluded by stating, "parents across rural Ireland want to protect their Catholic Schools. We value their role within the community both educationally and in preparing children for key steps in our children’s lives such as confirmation and communion. In an increasingly uncertain world the faith school provides our children with an architecture of values. RENUA Ireland will lead the way in fighting such a process"

Hotblack Desiato

Wow what an eejit.

He explains that he is pluralist but adds that pluralism 'cuts both ways'. He claims that he has uncovered a plan to rid faith from schools.

So he's a pluralist who wants to keep a catholic near-monopoly. Uhuh.

"I am gravely concerned that a secret plan now exists in the higher echelons of the Department of Education to excise Faith Schools from the educational landscape."

The only secret plan in Dept Ed is to obstruct any diminution of the number of catholic-controlled schools for as long as possible. Still the branch office of the archbishop's palace.

...Dublin 4 set...

The usual lazy bog politician talk.

Very unfair on the good people of Irishtown and Ringsend

He went on to explain how believes primary school is not just about exams.

Err, primary school is not about exams at all.

"It is about developing character and moral formation."

Which is why I don't want their church anywhere near my kids.

It is also about protecting children from the dangers and threats posed by an uncontrolled digital landscape.

What about the dangers and threats of an abusive Abrahamic religion with a great deal of temporal power and a massive sense of entitlement?

He concluded by stating, "parents across rural Ireland want to protect their Catholic Schools.

And the parents in rural Ireland who don't want that can just f off. Same as in much of urban Ireland, then...

We value their role within the community both educationally and in preparing children for key steps in our children’s lives such as confirmation and communion.

Newsflash - not everyone is catholic. Half of the parents in ETs send their kids to these sacraments but nonetheless chose not to send their kids to a catholic ethos school. A state funded instution should have nothing to do with preparations for religious rites, that's the parish's job.

In an increasingly uncertain world the faith school provides our children with an architecture of values.

It's the values they promote which are the problem.

RENUA Ireland will lead the way in fighting such a process

What's left of RENUA Ireland (did they attempt to establish an overseas branch, or something? and why the CAPS?) will disappear within a couple of local electoral cycles.

waterfaerie

Offaly Express wrote:

"I am gravely concerned that a secret plan now exists in the higher echelons of the Department of Education to excise Faith Schools from the educational landscape."

If only!

Pherekydes

robindch wrote: »

..."a Dublin 4 set of sectarian secularists."

You read this on Waterford Whispers, right?

robindch

A primary school teacher explains that kids come into school these days and just don't have a clue about religion and this is causing more and more problems as there's only 30 minutes per school day during which to teach them when to stand, sit and kneel at church.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/children-s-religious-knowledge-has-deteriorated-1.3605647

Irish Times wrote:

I have been teaching in Irish primary schools for 16 years. And in those years, I have found myself teaching not only from the top of a classroom but, quite often, from the top of a church. Teaching and preparing sacramental classes requires me to step into the role of a priest for the duration of the rehearsals. I play the role well. One priest commented during his plenary of one Communion Day ceremony that I would indeed make a great priest. The comment was of course met with laughter by the attending congregation. A female priest? That’ll be the day.

As the years have ticked by in my teaching career, not only has the irony of the role I am playing from the pulpit as a female not been lost on me, but the time invested in these rehearsals has increased. Minister for Education Richard Bruton has committed to removing the role religion plays in admission to Irish primary schools through the removal of the “baptism barrier”. Parents are also being surveyed on their views on religion in education. Bruton is, however, overlooking other possible areas of contention in relation to religious instruction in our State schools: how we, the teachers feel about it.

The issue is not so much about the value of teaching religion and morality – which few of us would argue with – but more about whether schools should or can still be asked to prepare students for sacraments, if students’ only experience of church appears to be school-based? Sacramental preparation is not just a one-day affair. The “big day out”, as it can often be referred to, involves far more than just turning up on the day. It involves church visits, school practice, singing, procession practice, response learning, right down to how to sit in a pew. It involves enrolment and contrition ceremonies, wardrobe fittings and photoshoots. All of this takes more than the 30 minutes designated daily for religious education in our national curriculum.

With the passing of each academic year many teachers are noticing a deterioration in the religious knowledge baseline the children have. This places increased demands on teachers to teach students skills that children in previous years came to school knowing. One former colleague finds that in her school they must “re-teach” the students how to receive Communion in their Confirmation year.

Another spoke of a recent Communion ceremony where the amused congregation were unaware of when to sit, stand or kneel at any point during the Mass. It’s clear that some parents are not engaging with church practices – though they expect it of their children and schools. When parents do get involved, the ceremony can hold a lot more significance for both children and parents.

“Do This in Memory of Me” is a parish programme designed to help parents and children prepare for the First Eucharist. This, in turn, means there is less time taken from academic tuition for sacramental preparation.

The removal of the baptism barrier is also likely to have a knock-on logistical effect on schools, with an increase in the number of students opting out of sacramental preparation. While must of the focus on religion in school has been on children and parents, it also affects teachers. Teachers applying to work in Irish primary schools that operate under religious patronage must agree to teach and promote the religious ethos of that school.

This wasn’t much of an issue in the past. A recent study by NUI Galway into religiosity and practice of new entrants into primary education found that at least 30 per cent don’t practise. For some this may seem like fair game. If you choose to work in a school under religious patronage then surely you must conform. It is your job. There is, however, a lack of choice for educators when seeking employment in Irish primary schools. Some 96 per cent of schools are under religious patronage. That leaves just 4 per cent of schools for educators who wish to be relieved of the duty of promoting one religious ethos. It’s another reminder that the profile of teachers, as well as the school population, is changing.

recedite

Two new mini-scandals to report at the start of the new school year, both of which are tied in with the "patronage" system. And both occurring in commuter belt towns where the population has increased sharply in recent years.

A state funded primary school in Greystones Co. Wicklow has introduced a policy of giving priority not only to members of one religion, but to active parishioners over inactive ones. Leading to the resignation of the school principal, the school secretary and the chairman of the BOM. Church attendance is booming though, unsurprisingly.

This particular policy would be illegal under the recent schools admission legislation made law this year. But unfortunately that law is apparently inactive until the Minister for Education signs it. There is no sign of his signature at present.

In Kildalkey Co. Meath a whole group of students have been kicked off the school bus. Bus Eireann have no legal obligation to provide an extra bus because these kids are "concessionary" which means they are not attending their nearest school. We are going to see a lot more of this happening as the diversification of school patrons starts to kick in.
Lets say for example there is an ET or ETB school at 7 km from your house and a RC school at 8 km (or vice versa) then your child is only entitled to be taken by bus to the nearer school.
However, if your child was going to "a minority school" this does not apply, and they would be transported a much longer distance, at the public expense.

Bus Eireann use a flawed methodology which categorises ET, ETB and RC schools all in the same ethos bracket as being "not minority schools". Even though there is plainly a difference in ethos which would cause parents to choose one over the other, even if it was slightly further away.


All of the above problems could have been avoided by the simple expediency of making all state funded schools equally suitable for all citizens. Then provide a state funded bus service to all pupils attending their nearest school.
Under the current increasingly diversified "patronage" system, these kind of problems can only get worse going into the future. Religious ethos schools will become increasingly fundamentalist. Somebody is going to have to pay for a whole lot more buses, and there will be a whole lot more private car traffic criss-crossing towns and cities.

gaius c

The RC are gearing up for a big fight on this.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/catholic-schools-warn-minister-that-religion-opt-out-may-breach-law-1.3618330

They are concerned that so many students will opt out of religion that it will put schools under major strain in terms of providing other subjects, with limited staff numbers.”

They know they are toast if they let folks do something constructive instead of religion classes so better to force them to choose between being bored out of their skulls and doing religion.

With their resources, they could tie this up in the courts for years.

gaius c

recedite wrote: »

A state funded primary school in Greystones Co. Wicklow [/URL]has introduced a policy of giving priority not only to members of one religion, but to active parishioners over inactive ones. Leading to the resignation of the school principal, the school secretary and the chairman of the BOM. Church attendance is booming though, unsurprisingly.

National school in D15 doing the same up until last year as a form of coercion.

Hotblack Desiato

gaius c wrote: »

They know they are toast if they let folks do something constructive instead of religion classes so better to force them to choose between being bored out of their skulls and doing religion.

Doing religion means being bored out of your skull anyway.

When it's no longer 3 or 4 kids in a class opting out the school starts to have a problem, but this growth in opting out was inevitable anyway and (IIRC) about 20% of parents of young children ticked "no religion" in the last census.

This problem is not created by parents or children opting out. It's caused by schools insisting on having a discriminatory subject jammed into the normal school day.

I'm so happy for them that they are finding it increasingly difficult to ride roughshod over the rights of non-catholics and things are getting awkward for them. Tough. There is an obvious solution to this problem. The more arsey they act over this, the more pressure they will be to remove patronage from them and/or ban religion during the standard school day.

gaius c

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Doing religion means being bored out of your skull anyway.

When it's no longer 3 or 4 kids in a class opting out the school starts to have a problem, but this growth in opting out was inevitable anyway and (IIRC) about 20% of parents of young children ticked "no religion" in the last census.

This problem is not created by parents or children opting out. It's caused by schools insisting on having a discriminatory subject jammed into the normal school day.

I'm so happy for them that they are finding it increasingly difficult to ride roughshod over the rights of non-catholics and things are getting awkward for them. Tough. There is an obvious solution to this problem. The more arsey they act over this, the more pressure they will be to remove patronage from them and/or ban religion during the standard school day.

And in a few years time, the I Own An Institute will moan about the no quarters approach given ignoring that their intransigence over accommodating non-catholics brought about the conflict in the first place.

Hotblack Desiato

The rules affect up to 150,000 pupils attending hundreds of State-run secondary schools and community schools.

Voluntary secondary schools, typically run or owned by religious organisations, are not affected by the circular.

The schools involved are state-built, state-funded, state-owned, state-run ETB schools!

Who the hell do the RCC think they are?

Hotblack Desiato

Were the uniforms inspired by the Handmaid's Tale, or something?




Ridiculously impractical and ridiculously sexist.

evolving_doors

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Were the uniforms inspired by the Handmaid's Tale, or something?




Ridiculously impractical and ridiculously sexist.

So what length and colour is acceptable ?

Is it just the girls' uniform your referring to?

Are the boys ok?

If the boys wore the same as the girls would it still be sexist?

smacl

evolving_doors wrote: »

So what length and colour is acceptable ?

Is it just the girls' uniform your referring to?

Are the boys ok?

If the boys wore the same as the girls would it still be sexist?

If girls were allowed to wear the same as the boys it might be a bit better. I'm guessing you don't have a daughter that cycles to school. That said, I don't see any positive benefits in school uniform that couldn't be achieved with a simple dress code, and see plenty of negatives. Luckily my eldest has moved on to college this year and my youngest is in an ET.

recedite

The girl in the middle seems to be a non-conformist

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

The girl in the middle seems to be a non-conformist

Tracksuit bottoms with some veil-like thing over them???

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Tracksuit bottoms with some veil-like thing over them???

That's what I thought, but on closer study I think the "veil-like thing" is just her own shadow on the street behind her. I think she's just wearing a conventional track suit.

Where is the picture from? What school is this the uniform of?

evolving_doors

Peregrinus wrote: »

That's what I thought, but on closer study I think the "veil-like thing" is just her own shadow on the street behind her. I think she's just wearing a conventional track suit.

Where is the picture from? What school is this the uniform of?

Why does it matter where the school is?

Peregrinus

evolving_doors wrote: »

Why does it matter where the school is?

It may not matter. I'm just curious. And I'm not so much curious about where the school is as what the school is, and whether this is the prescribed uniform and, if so, why.

Peregrinus

OK, google image search is my friend. It's Gaelcholáiste Luimnigh, a co-educational, Irish-language school in, duh, Limerick under the patronage of the Limerick and Clare Education & Training Board. From the website it doesn't appear to have an explicit denominational affiliation and says it is an inclusive school. The Mission Statement and Ethos statement do not mention religion. There is a chaplain who seems to be Catholic, but no information about his role or the degree of his involvement in the school. The Board of Management does not include a representative of any church.

The school enrolment policy is lengthy, but does not appear to prioritise applicants by reference to religion. Priorities are (1) siblings of current pupils (2) children of school staff (3) pupils from primary Gaelscoileanna in the Limerick/Clare area (4) all remaining places to be allocated at random.

As regards uniform, the website says:

"Gaelcholáiste Luimnigh is committed to providing a school uniform which is comfortable, stylish, cost-effective to parents and striking in appearance.

The school uniform has been admired by all who visit the College, and those who see it at various functions and competitions which our pupils participate in.

It was professionally designed and manufactured to represent a fashionable, smart and elegant look for our students."

Not a word about the length of the uniform skirt. But photographs on the website confirm that, yes, that is the uniform skirt. And it certainly achieves the "striking in appearance" objective.

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

OK, google image search is my friend. It's Gaelcholte Luimnigh, a co-educational, Irish-language school ...

Past pupils seem happy enough...

Every student is allowed to express themselves in any way they like, and it is a school that allows you to blossom into whoever you want to be.

There is something ironic when people who object to school uniforms in general, object even more strenously when the uniform is a bit out of the ordinary, flamboyant even.

evolving_doors

smacl wrote: »

If girls were allowed to wear the same as the boys it might be a bit better.

What would be better?

smacl wrote: »

I'm guessing you don't have a daughter that cycles to school. .

This is a bit vague are you saying to ban the skirt part of the uniform for cycling reasons?

smacl wrote: »

That said, I don't see any positive benefits in school uniform that couldn't be achieved with a simple dress code, and see plenty of negatives.

A uniform is the simplest version of a dress code as you can get.

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

Past pupils seem happy enough...

Well, the school website is hardly going to put up testimonials from past pupils saying that their every moment there was a living hell of educational, social, psychological and sexual abuse, and a constant fashion mortification, is it?

But, weird though the girls' uniform is, there seems no evidence that it is the outworking of some extremist regressive religious views about feminine modesty and the inherent depravity of the lower limbs.

evolving_doors

Peregrinus wrote: »

OK, google image search is my friend. It's Gaelcholáiste Luimnigh, a co-educational, Irish-language school in, duh, Limerick under the patronage of the Limerick and Clare Education & Training Board. From the website it doesn't appear to have an explicit denominational affiliation and says it is an inclusive school. The Mission Statement and Ethos statement do not mention religion. There is a chaplain who seems to be Catholic, but no information about his role or the degree of his involvement in the school. The Board of Management does not include a representative of any church.

The school enrolment policy is lengthy, but does not appear to prioritise applicants by reference to religion. Priorities are (1) siblings of current pupils (2) children of school staff (3) pupils from primary Gaelscoileanna in the Limerick/Clare area (4) all remaining places to be allocated at random.

As regards uniform, the website says:

"Gaelcholáiste Luimnigh is committed to providing a school uniform which is comfortable, stylish, cost-effective to parents and striking in appearance.

The school uniform has been admired by all who visit the College, and those who see it at various functions and competitions which our pupils participate in.

It was professionally designed and manufactured to represent a fashionable, smart and elegant look for our students."

Not a word about the length of the uniform skirt. But photographs on the website confirm that, yes, that is the uniform skirt. And it certainly achieves the "striking in appearance" objective.

What skirt length are you ok with?

If you're not too sure maybe another tv reference!
Riverdale length!

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

"Gaelcholáiste Luimnigh is committed to providing a school uniform which is comfortable, stylish, cost-effective to parents and striking in appearance.

The school uniform has been admired by all who visit the College, and those who see it at various functions and competitions which our pupils participate in.

It was professionally designed and manufactured to represent a fashionable, smart and elegant look for our students."

Not seeing anything that distinguishes the boys school uniform from just about any other boys school uniform. No red trousers to match that skirt for example. The girls rig out seems there more to promote the school than to meet the needs of the student, and floor length skirts wouldn't be everyone's idea of stylish or practical. i.e. not suitable for cycling, not good for walking any distance in. Given we have a childhood obesity epidemic, and to a lesser extent a concern with traffic congestion, it seems like a bad choice, but only for the girls.

smacl

evolving_doors wrote: »

What skirt length are you ok with?
Or should all the girls be in trousers?

Why exactly should girls be forced to wear skirts?

evolving_doors

smacl wrote: »

Why exactly should girls be forced to wear skirts?

Why should they be forced to wear trousers?

evolving_doors

recedite wrote: »

I like this for a girls uniform. Based on the Hungarian Uhlan uniform, which was also ridiculously impractical, but probably the most stylish uniform of WW1.

Can't see where that hem length ends could you be more specific.
That ulon lass wouldn't last long on a bicycle btw