School patronage

smacl

Geuze wrote: »

It was never illegal to be gay.

Homosexual acts were illegal.

You could walk arm in arm with your gay partner up Grafton street, and that was not illegal.

If you think about it, you can't make being something illegal, but you can make doing something illegal.

Either way, Ireland was a deeply homophobic and misogynistic country in the recent past, largely as a result of the Catholic church and the power it wielded. While far from perfect, we've certainly come a long way in my lifetime. My take on Islam in the West is that it has a similar journey to take and I'm of the opinion that this is a journey that it has already started out on.

tretorn

smacl wrote: »

Either way, Ireland was a deeply homophobic and misogynistic country in the recent past, largely as a result of the Catholic church and the power it wielded. While far from perfect, we've certainly come a long way in my lifetime. My take on Islam in the West is that it has a similar journey to take and I'm of the opinion that this is a journey that it has already started out on.

You are so so naive.

recedite

smacl wrote: »

My take on Islam in the West is that it has a similar journey to take and I'm of the opinion that this is a journey that it has already started out on.

If your definition of progress is going from locking somebody in a cell for 10 years, to stoning them to death, then yes, you are right.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47769964

recedite

Oh wait... you said Islam in the West.
But isn't that just the same as Islam in the east, except that they have to keep a lower profile because they haven't yet got the numbers and the power to exert control?

tretorn

recedite wrote: »

Oh wait... you said Islam in the West.
But isn't that just the same as Islam in the east, except that they have to keep a lower profile because they haven't yet got the numbers and the power to exert control?

And when, not if they get the numbers we will all be dragged back to the fifteenth century and as always it will be women who will lose their rights first.

Hotblack Desiato

It's hilarious when the defenders of traditional catholicism then pretend to be so concerned about women's rights just so they can have a pop at muslims.

gaius c

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Just from listening to morning Ireland it seems the parents have already shot down any change of patronage in the school and if anything they are more determined than ever to keep it catholic ethos

74% of them have indicated so.

robindch

tretorn wrote: »

You are so so naive.

And you are so heading for a clout of the forum’s clerical cluestick if you continue thusly.

smacl

Geuze wrote: »

https://www.cso.ie/en/csolatestnews/pressreleases/2017pressreleases/pressstatementcensus2016resultsprofile8-irishtravellersethnicityandreligion/

Catholics are 78.3% of the pop.

Yes, many Catholics did vote for SSM and abortion, which in one sense is odd, but I like the way Irish Catholics are flexible in that way..............

More likely most than many. I like the way Irish Catholics are flexible in that way too, not sure that the Church or Rome share that view though.

Hotblack Desiato

gaius c wrote: »

74% of them have indicated so.

26% across 8 schools is enough to justify divestment of 2 of them.

Hotblack Desiato

You gotta love the way the desperadoes keep trotting out the 78% census figure.

Why should some OAP ticking a box on a form in Donegal have any influence on the patronage of a school in Cork?

smacl

recedite wrote: »

Oh wait... you said Islam in the West.
But isn't that just the same as Islam in the east, except that they have to keep a lower profile because they haven't yet got the numbers and the power to exert control?

Nah, much like the Catholics in Ireland voting to demonstrate they're pro-choice and egalitarian, there are plenty of Muslims in Europe out there making similar moves, e.g. the Inclusive Mosque Initiative. The far right's attempt to paint all Muslims as a bunch of crazed jihadist's bent on world domination says more about the far right than it does about anyone else. In all honesty, I have very little time for Islam, way less even than for doctrinaire Catholicism, but the nonsense that I see from those seeking to demonize Muslims based on their religion is as deplorable as it is paranoid. All the frothing from the far right actually achieves is to push those to their left (i.e. most people) towards the defense of Islam. It is ironic that right wing Islamophobic rhetoric would suggest those of us that aren't overly critical of Islam are acting out of fear, in truth we're doing it to gain as much distance from far right nutters as is humanly possible.

Franz Von Peppercorn

smacl wrote: »

Nah, much like the Catholics in Ireland voting to demonstrate they're pro-choice and egalitarian, there are plenty of Muslims in Europe out there making similar moves, e.g. the Inclusive Mosque Initiative. The far right's attempt to paint all Muslims as a bunch of crazed jihadist's bent on world domination says more about the far right than it does about anyone else. In all honesty, I have very little time for Islam, way less even than for doctrinaire Catholicism, but the nonsense that I see from those seeking to demonize Muslims based on their religion is as deplorable as it is paranoid. All the frothing from the far right actually achieves is to push those to their left (i.e. most people) towards the defense of Islam. It is ironic that right wing Islamophobic rhetoric would suggest those of us that aren't overly critical of Islam are acting out of fear, in truth we're doing it to gain as much distance from far right nutters as is humanly possible.

Plenty is too far really, although people will probably integrate over time. In the UK Muslim attitudes are quite illiberal.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law


There’s some examples of integration there, nevertheless.

gaius c

https://twitter.com/McHughJoeTD/status/1113497208454832128?s=19

Good to get some clarification. With the publicity caused, there will probably be an investigation into who was behind these letters. I find it hard to believe that boards of management signed off on them.

Suspect that we'll find that somebody is after doing a Katie Asclough style solo run under the auspices of the school as a whole.

smacl

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Plenty is too far really, although people will probably integrate over time. In the UK Muslim attitudes are quite illiberal.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law


There’s some examples of integration there, nevertheless.

Illiberal but more liberal than in the past. Good article.

smacl

gaius c wrote: »

Suspect that we'll find that somebody is after doing a Katie Asclough style solo run under the auspices of the school as a whole.

Possible, but we're talking about multiple schools and letters sent to the parents. Sounds like more than a solo run to me.

recedite

smacl wrote: »

there are plenty of Muslims in Europe out there making similar moves, e.g. the Inclusive Mosque Initiative.

The imam there tells it like it is..

"The Koran is not going to change, the prophetic position is not going to change. Muslim thinking and practices are not going to change.
"So I don't know what the point of this mosque is."

These ladies have as much relevance to Islam as Sinead O'Connor had on the RCC when she got ordained as a priest.
Actually, isn't she a muslim now? Maybe she's a founding member of this sect?

end of the road

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

26% across 8 schools is enough to justify divestment of 2 of them.

accept it's not. it is still the minority view. i don't like it either but if the majority is happy with the setup for whatever stupid reason then there is little we can do.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You gotta love the way the desperadoes keep trotting out the 78% census figure.

Why should some OAP ticking a box on a form in Donegal have any influence on the patronage of a school in Cork?

ultimately they don't. however given the census is compulsory, it is the only statistic that government are going to be able to rely on when determining services and their provision and who oversees that provision.
if the department of education and the government wish to have a vote on the issue, then by all means do so, it would certainly get my support. however i have a feeling that there may be quite a possibility that unfortunately the majority may in this instance vote to keep the current set up.
it does annoy me, dispite not being catholic nor having any interest in the religion, that people claim to be catholic, put catholic down on the census form, continue to want to send their children to catholic ethoss schools, complain at the possibility or even the idea that divestment and removal of religion in all forms from schools should happen, take part in religious sacraments when it suits, all the while they bash the cc (understandibley) and vote against the cc on various issues which the cc's teachings preach against. but unfortunately that is the country we live in unfortunately.
if the people want the catholic church out of their lives they are going to have to show it and not take part in anything to do with the cc. some of us manage it perfectly well and we are not in the 1940s now. so there is no excuse to have anything to do with catholicism if you don't want to.

Odhinn

tretorn wrote: »

........................

The Muslims have built their own primary schools and are probably imparting an education which is at odds with the ideals of the society we live in, ie gender equality and rights for LGBT people. They are in the process of building their own secondary schools too so there are a lot of them here and they have a lot of money.

.................

But somehow when they do it, it's worse than when the RC does. You're obsessed with Islam, and race.

Odhinn

On a lighter note - does anybody have a clue what was behind the "grandparents" remark?

Hotblack Desiato

Insanity?

Odhinn

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Insanity?

Always a possibility.

evolving_doors

Odhinn wrote: »

On a lighter note - does anybody have a clue what was behind the "grandparents" remark?

Presume you're referring to the 'grandparents day'.

A lot of primary schools invite the grandparents (or any other relative if grandparents aren't available) in to talk about when they were young etc... so it's really good..... oh and sometimes a bit of a mass happens too.

So if you are a non-RC parent/grandparent who gets the letter and see that it's a 'show of faith', then either:
A. Don't go.
B. Go but sit out of the mass part.
C. Go and sit in on the mass but don't take the sacrament.
D. Go and find another school for your child, cos there's a choice don'tcha know.

Anteayer

Could you not just have, grandparents' day without mass? I don't really see how or why it has to be a religious thing.

Why can't it simply be an event about connecting the generations?!

Maybe bring in a few photos for slide show? Talk about the old days? Talk about retirement and being a grandparent?
Maybe put on a concert or a play or something?
Have an intergenerational singing competition?
A baked goods sale?
Do a big art project?

The possibilities are endless!

It's like some people in Irish educational circles think everything has to be done with a Mass. I remember one guy who went to UCC who kept talking about his graduation Mass. UCC is totally secular and he had actually misinterpreted the Latin language formal graduation ceremony as mass somehow !?!

Hotblack Desiato

Exactly, but some meatheads have to ruin everything by trying to shoehorn religion into it.

twowheelsonly

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Exactly, but some meatheads have to ruin everything by trying to shoehorn religion into it.

You do realise that the Mass is only a part of it? It's not mandatory and I'm sure anyone that wanted to can make up their own minds. For some that will be to attend it (because they want to) or for others it can mean that they won't attend (because they don't want to). To have the option is nice. @Evolving Doors outlined all the other options above.

Hotblack Desiato

evolving_doors wrote: »

Go and find another school for your child, cos there's a choice don'tcha know.

Not where I live. Maybe I should move? Or emigrate? :rolleyes:

smacl

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Not where I live. Maybe I should move? Or emigrate? :rolleyes:

That's it exactly, in many areas there is no choice and demand for non-Catholic ethos cannot be met. The number negatively affected by divestment is considerably smaller than those affected by no divestment taking place. Similarly those who feel that strongly about wanting a Catholic ethos school clearly do have considerably more choice than those that do not.

Peregrinus

smacl wrote: »

That's it exactly, in many areas there is no choice and demand for non-Catholic ethos cannot be met. The number negatively affected by divestment is considerably smaller than those affected by no divestment taking place. Similarly those who feel that strongly about wanting a Catholic ethos school clearly do have considerably more choice than those that do not.

All true, but we have a NIMBY problem here. As a principle I'm all in favour of lots of divestment so that those seeking non-Catholic schools are as well-catered for as those seeking Catholic schools. But when push comes to shove I don't want my little Johnny's school divested, and I oppose it on the entirely reasonable grounds that not only I but also a clear majority of the parents in that school prefer the current patronage.

This isn't an easy problem to solve. On the one hand you have to be firm - divestment to fix the patronage malapportionment problem has to involve divesting schools from majority preference patronage to minority preference patronage and, duh, that means overriding the majority preference. On the other hand it's important not to disrupt or degrade school communities, to secure stakeholder buy-in, to maintain a harmonious school community, not to impose social or educational disruptoin by requiring people to move schools, etc etc. It may be easier to say than to do, but I think this calls for a lot of flexibility, maybe things like phased transitions so that the wishes or expectations regarding the current generation of students are not abruptly disrupted, and the like.

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

This isn't an easy problem to solve

I agree entirely, but that doesn't excuse inaction in favour of the status quo, which is precisely what is happening here. Divestment is the most cost effective mechanism available to the state to ensure people are treated in a fair and proportionate manner, which clearly isn't currently the case.

It may be easier to say than to do, but I think this calls for a lot of flexibility, maybe things like phased transitions so that the wishes or expectations regarding the current generation of students are not abruptly disrupted, and the like.

Again I agree, though I think you'd find the students are already quite a bit more flexible than the staff and parents. Young minds tend to deal well with change, particularly where we're talking about primary school kids. The intransigent attitudes here lie entirely with the grown ups.