School patronage

Peregrinus

smacl wrote: »

I agree entirely, but that doesn't excuse inaction in favour of the status quo, which is precisely what is happening here. Divestment is the most cost effective mechanism available to the state to ensure people are treated in a fair and proportionate manner, which clearly isn't currently the case.

Yes.

smacl wrote: »

Again I agree, though I think you'd find the students are already quite a bit more flexible than the staff and parents. Young minds tend to deal well with change, particularly where we're talking about primary school kids. The intransigent attitudes here lie entirely with the grown ups.

Again, yes. But the grownups are the stakeholders you need to get buy-in from.

(Although I perhaps wouldn't have chosen the term "intransigent". Are those with a fixed preference for non-Catholic patronage also "intransigent"? Does using the term "intransigent" for those whose preferences are at odds with your own exemplify the kind of flexiblity and consensus-building that, I think you agree, the situation calls for?)

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

Are those with a fixed preference for non-Catholic patronage also "intransigent"?

Yes, insofar as they're not willing to put up with having an unwanted religious ethos foisted on their children. Being unwilling to move from a given position isn't necessarily unreasonable, just unhelpful if you're trying to reach a compromise position. I would suggest that all the compromising to date has been at the expense of those seeking a non-denominational education for their children and it is reasonable that movement comes from the other side in this debate. If this was not the case, why are we talking about divestment in the first instance?

magicbastarder

https://twitter.com/hlinehan/status/1113682956147621890

Anteayer

I wonder would it be possible for someone to seek to have the process judicially reviewed?

It would make more sense to have these things run and regulated by a neutral commission with the same kind of rules of transparency and fairness as mini referendum.

SusanC10

Our Kids go to a Multi-Denom Primary School (Not Educate Together). We are practising Catholics.

We have a School Uniform (crested).

Our school does not do a Nativity Play. However, there is a talent show type thing in May every year where there is singing, drama etc.

There is a 6th Class Graduation Ceremony but there is no Mass.

We do a Christmas Fair with Santa there.

We do not have a Grandparents Day, however that has more to do with the PA decision that it could be upsetting to some kids who have no Grandparents remaining alive.

We do a Green Day for St. Patrick's Day and dress up days for Halloween and World Book Day.

We do not make St. Brigid's Crosses nor is there Ash distributed on Ash Wednesday.

Catholic Classes are run after school hours in the school. Parents pay extra per year for these Classes. The Catholic kids make their Sacraments together in one of the local Churches and there are refreshments afterwards in the school hall.

We (our family) believe that religion and faith are personal to each family and should be taught at home and in the relevant Church which is part of the reason we chose this school for our kids although the Catholic Parish School is geographically closer.

evolving_doors

SusanC10 wrote: »

Our Kids go to a Multi-Denom Primary School (Not Educate Together). We are practising Catholics.

We have a School Uniform (crested).

Our school does not do a Nativity Play. However, there is a talent show type thing in May every year where there is singing, drama etc.

There is a 6th Class Graduation Ceremony but there is no Mass.

We do a Christmas Fair with Santa there.

We do not have a Grandparents Day, however that has more to do with the PA decision that it could be upsetting to some kids who have no Grandparents remaining alive.

We do a Green Day for St. Patrick's Day and dress up days for Halloween and World Book Day.

We do not make St. Brigid's Crosses nor is there Ash distributed on Ash Wednesday.

Catholic Classes are run after school hours in the school. Parents pay extra per year for these Classes. The Catholic kids make their Sacraments together in one of the local Churches and there are refreshments afterwards in the school hall.

We (our family) believe that religion and faith are personal to each family and should be taught at home and in the relevant Church which is part of the reason we chose this school for our kids although the Catholic Parish School is geographically closer.

Will you have the same choice for secondary when the time comes?

SusanC10

evolving_doors wrote: »

Will you have the same choice for secondary when the time comes?

There are 2 Educate Together Secondary Schools available to us.

tretorn

SusanC10 wrote: »

Our Kids go to a Multi-Denom Primary School (Not Educate Together). We are practising Catholics.

We have a School Uniform (crested).

Our school does not do a Nativity Play. However, there is a talent show type thing in May every year where there is singing, drama etc.

There is a 6th Class Graduation Ceremony but there is no Mass.

We do a Christmas Fair with Santa there.

We do not have a Grandparents Day, however that has more to do with the PA decision that it could be upsetting to some kids who have no Grandparents remaining alive.



We do a Green Day for St. Patrick's Day and dress up days for Halloween and World Book Day.

We do not make St. Brigid's Crosses nor is there Ash distributed on Ash Wednesday.

Catholic Classes are run after school hours in the school. Parents pay extra per year for these Classes. The Catholic kids make their Sacraments together in one of the local Churches and there are refreshments afterwards in the school hall.

We (our family) believe that religion and faith are personal to each family and should be taught at home and in the relevant Church which is part of the reason we chose this school for our kids although the Catholic Parish School is geographically closer.

And thats your decision but other parents may have gone out of their way to select a Catholic school because they want their children to have a faith school education.

Now they are being told that their school may be deselected to divest and this means no Holy Communion or Confirmation preparationin the school, no nativity play, no crib, no greetings in Irish as in Dia Dhuit, God be with you, these parents will feel their school might as well be in a London borough instead of an Irish catholic primary school.

The local Catholic primary schools always have a graduation mass and this is important to Catholic parents. The COI schools will have their Service too and their Christmas carol service and this religious minority will not give in to any Government intervention to make their schools available to everyone.

Neither will the Muslims, they try and impose their feudal beliefs, eg what little girls should wear on the rest of us and the rest of us will say NO so the Muslims send their children to muslim schools so they can disregard the laws off the land and treat female pupils like second class citizens, ie they can have the left overs after the boys can be looked after. The LGBT children, God help them as you can only imagine the teachings on homosexuality, they type of stuff they will be taught wouldnt be approved by the Department of Education but no one is going to oversee whats taught in Muslim schools because Odious will be along to squeal racism,lol

smacl

tretorn wrote: »

And thats your decision but other parents may have gone out of their way to select a Catholic school because they want their children to have a faith school education.

No parent in this country has gone out of their way to select a Catholic national school because that is the default option and always available. People regularly do go out of their way to get their kids into a non-religious ethos school because there are relatively few of them and a demand for places that greatly exceeds supply. These people have as much right to have their children educated to their preferred choice of ethos as anyone else, yet for most the option simply isn't available.

tretorn

Its all very First world stuff.

The children being educated in these schools are among the luckiest on the planet.

Imagine the life on a child in Bangladesh, stuck in some factory sewing buttons for so many hours everyday that his sight eventually goes. Then these liberal parents whining on about their rights to a secular education are buying their childrens uniforms complete with buttons sewn by child in the factory who will never learn to read and write.

end of the road

tretorn wrote: »

Neither will the Muslims, they try and impose their feudal beliefs, eg what little girls should wear on the rest of us and the rest of us will say NO so the Muslims send their children to muslim schools so they can disregard the laws off the land and treat female pupils like second class citizens, ie they can have the left overs after the boys can be looked after. The LGBT children, God help them as you can only imagine the teachings on homosexuality, they type of stuff they will be taught wouldnt be approved by the Department of Education but no one is going to oversee whats taught in Muslim schools because Odious will be along to squeal racism,lol

muslim schools have to abide by the rules as set down by the department and are subject to sanction if they don't. they will be sanctioned the same as any other school. no amount of crying racism will get a muslim school out of being sanctioned if they do break the rules.
you need to find new sources of information instead of the anti-islam/far right propaganda pieces you are reading.

end of the road

tretorn wrote: »

Its all very First world stuff.

The children being educated in these schools are among the luckiest on the planet.

Imagine the life on a child in Bangladesh, stuck in some factory sewing buttons for so many hours everyday that his sight eventually goes. Then these liberal parents whining on about their rights to a secular education are buying their childrens uniforms complete with buttons sewn by child in the factory who will never learn to read and write.

yes and such practices are absolutely wrong. however it is the clothing manufacturers who are responsible via farming production out to factories which engage in these practices. the parents just buy the uniform and while ideally they would do research, the reality is that clothes made using such abhorrent practices seem to be in the majority rather then the minority. certainly consumers can do a lot more perhapse but generally clothes are required so it's not a surprise that people feel powerless to do anything in relation to this issue.

tretorn

end of the road wrote: »

muslim schools have to abide by the rules as set down by the department and are subject to sanction if they don't. they will be sanctioned the same as any other school. no amount of crying racism will get a muslim school out of being sanctioned if they do break the rules.
you need to find new sources of information instead of the anti-islam/far right propaganda pieces you are reading.

You make me laugh so much.

Check out the Ofsted reports in Britain in relation to practices in schools where the intake is entirely Muslim.

Then check out some of the Whole school Evaluation report done on Muslim primary schools here.

ETA,https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/01/ofsted-faith-schools-jewish-girls-censorship

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/nov/23/growing-proportion-private-faith-schools-fail-ofsted-inspections

There I have lined an article for you, you can read it before you nod off tonight.

Thank God for our harmless RC and COI schools, we have little to be worried about. How come actually when people talking about a secular education just talk about Catholic schools, if we want secular education that means all faith schools have to close, thats all COI, all Muslim, all jewish schools, hell will freeze over before this happens.

evolving_doors

tretorn wrote: »

Its all very First world stuff.

The children being educated in these schools are among the luckiest on the planet.

Imagine the life on a child in Bangladesh, stuck in some factory sewing buttons for so many hours everyday that his sight eventually goes. Then these liberal parents whining on about their rights to a secular education are buying their childrens uniforms complete with buttons sewn by child in the factory who will never learn to read and write.

Jeez talk about arguing to the extreme...you forgot to mention the crocodiles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ih1EuMLspY

evolving_doors

tretorn wrote: »

You make me laugh so much.

Check out the Ofsted reports in Britain in relation to practices in schools where the intake is entirely Muslim.

Then check out some of the Whole school Evaluation report done on Muslim primary schools here.

ETA,https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/01/ofsted-faith-schools-jewish-girls-censorship

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/nov/23/growing-proportion-private-faith-schools-fail-ofsted-inspections

There I have lined an article for you, you can read it before you nod off tonight.

Thank God for our harmless RC and COI schools, we have little to be worried about. How come actually when people talking about a secular education just talk about Catholic schools, if we want secular education that means all faith schools have to close, thats all COI, all Muslim, all jewish schools, hell will freeze over before this happens.

What's with the Muslim school obsessing?

This is about divesting from religion.... if all schools became secular you wouldn't have Muslim schools or Catholic schools!

Your trying to get half pregnant on this issue.

Odhinn

tretorn wrote: »

................
Neither will the Muslims, they try and impose their feudal beliefs, eg what little girls should wear on the rest of us and the rest of us will say NO so the Muslims send their children to muslim schools so they can disregard the laws off the land and treat female pupils like second class citizens, ie they can have the left overs after the boys can be looked after. The LGBT children, God help them as you can only imagine the teachings on homosexuality, they type of stuff they will be taught wouldnt be approved by the Department of Education but no one is going to oversee whats taught in Muslim schools because Odious will be along to squeal racism,lol

The choice is not between an islamic education system and a catholic one.

seamus

Anteayer wrote: »

Could you not just have, grandparents' day without mass? I don't really see how or why it has to be a religious thing.

Why can't it simply be an event about connecting the generations?!

Because RC schools are now painfully aware that the primary driver behind religiosity is the grandparents, not the parents.

So they've invented ways to get the grandparents invested into their childrens' religious education to try and pick up the slack of the parents.

There was none of this fuss about including grandparents back in the 90's or earlier.

In our school there had to be a limit on guests for communions and confirmations, many kids could only bring one, maybe two grandparents.

Now they're all about it. Because they know that most parents are going through the motions, having the religious days out for the grandparents.

tretorn

There isnt any choice at all In Muslim countries so why are we removing Christian symbols from our schools in case we offend our “ new Irish”.

The Irish education system has served us well, why fix something that the majority are happy with. The ones moaning about change are professional whingers for the most part, thats probably the main reason the schools dont want to divest. Parents have a big say in these ET schools and teachers in RC schools dont want to engage with these vocal well heeled mouthpieces.
If you want a choice of ET schools then move to West Dublin, its as multicultural as you can get too, tonnes of immigrants to befriend, it might suit people here.

end of the road

tretorn wrote: »

There isnt any choice at all In Muslim countries so why are we removing Christian symbols from our schools in case we offend our “ new Irish”.

because the schools want to promote some bit of inclusivity. also it means less cost over all.
because a muslim country does something does not mean we should do the same just because we have muslims her.

smacl

tretorn wrote: »

Parents have a big say in these ET schools and teachers in RC schools dont want to engage with these vocal well heeled mouthpieces.

Parents actually formed the Educate Together movement in order to actively participate in and help direct their children's education. I think quite a lot of teachers outside of ET recognise and welcome parental input and support at this stage, particularly given how tight resources are.

tretorn

seamus wrote: »

Because RC schools are now painfully aware that the primary driver behind religiosity is the grandparents, not the parents.

So they've invented ways to get the grandparents invested into their childrens' religious education to try and pick up the slack of the parents.

There was none of this fuss about including grandparents back in the 90's or earlier.

In our school there had to be a limit on guests for communions and confirmations, many kids could only bring one, maybe two grandparents.

Now they're all about it. Because they know that most parents are going through the motions, having the religious days out for the grandparents.

This has to be the silliest thread of the century.

The parents are not having the religious day out for the Grandparents, they are having it so their child can be the centre of the family for the day. Its the chance to shower love and attention and money on this child, dress the whole family up and show the whole family off. The day for lots of parents hasnt much religious significance but the holy communion is a nice Irish custom and tradition and parents like it so they arent going to have their child denied the big day out, the ceremony with the pals, the party back in the school, the get together with fellow parents at a happy time, its the link between the parish and the school that parents want and most do want some sort of faith for their children and there isnt anything in other religions that has more to offer than the devil they know.

As regards the Grandparents being invited into the school, this is probably because Grandparents play a big role in childcare now and many do school drop off and collections. They are interested and involved in their grandchilds life and whats wrong with bringing the two generations together.

I cant see how divesting the school is going to make a difference, Grandparents are invited into ET schools so this invite isnt a big conspiracy on the part of the Catholic Church to rake children into their church.

Again, any new schools the Department are building now are all ET so its not as if the clergy grip isnt slipping anyway.

evolving_doors

tretorn wrote: »

This has to be the silliest thread of the century.

The parents are not having the religious day out for the Grandparents, they are having it so their child can be the centre of the family for the day. Its the chance to shower love and attention and money on this child, dress the whole family up and show the whole family off. The day for lots of parents hasnt much religious significance but the holy communion is a nice Irish custom and tradition and parents like it so they arent going to have their child denied the big day out, the ceremony with the pals, the party back in the school, the get together with fellow parents at a happy time, its the link between the parish and the school that parents want and most do want some sort of faith for their children and there isnt anything in other religions that has more to offer than the devil they know.

As regards the Grandparents being invited into the school, this is probably because Grandparents play a big role in childcare now and many do school drop off and collections. They are interested and involved in their grandchilds life and whats wrong with bringing the two generations together.

I cant see how divesting the school is going to make a difference, Grandparents are invited into ET schools so this invite isnt a big conspiracy on the part of the Catholic Church to rake children into their church.

Again, any new schools the Department are building now are all ET so its not as if the clergy grip isnt slipping anyway.

But what about the Muslims?

Hotblack Desiato

tretorn wrote: »

There isnt any choice at all In Muslim countries so why are we removing Christian symbols from our schools in case we offend our “ new Irish”.

This is not about the "new Irish", much as you obviously wish it was.

The Irish education system has served us well, why fix something that the majority are happy with.

The Irish education system violates the human rights of pupils, parents, and teachers on a daily basis. Freedom of religion is not respected.

If you want a choice of ET schools then move to West Dublin, its as multicultural as you can get too, tonnes of immigrants to befriend, it might suit people here.

That's strange, I live in a part of west Dublin with no ET schools, plenty of immigrants in the local religious schools, though I don't know why you are obsessing about them.

tretorn

Try Tyrellstown houses are fairly reasonably priced there are lots of new ET schools have opened up there.

I am sure there are a few non denominational community secondary schools too and the locals there seem happy enough with the choice.

How are your rights in the Catholic school violated, no one is forcing your child to participate in a religion class, he can go and sit outside the principals door while the majority of his classmates learn whatever they learn in religion, honestly, get a grip, you could be the christian women locked up because she touched a cup belonging to a muslim, you need to come up for fresh air once in a while and count your blessings.

Violating your human rights, seriously.

evolving_doors

tretorn wrote: »

Try Tyrellstown houses are fairly reasonably priced there are lots of new ET schools have opened up there.

I am sure there are a few non denominational community secondary schools too and the locals there seem happy enough with the choice.

How are your rights in the Catholic school violated, no one is forcing your child to participate in a religion class, he can go and sit outside the principals door while the majority of his classmates learn whatever they learn in religion, honestly, get a grip, you could be the christian women locked up because she touched a cup belonging to a muslim, you need to come up for fresh air once in a while and count your blessings.

Violating your human rights, seriously.

Ya and don't forget about the Musli.. oh wait.... ahh grand, you got em in there again... phew. I was really worried about that time your post never mentioned the Muslims.
Can we call talk about the Muslims now.

Hotblack Desiato

tretorn wrote: »

no one is forcing your child to participate in a religion class, he can go and sit outside the principals door

Sounds like a punishment to me. And yes schools do try and force parents to not opt their kids out of religion, even though they have a constitutional and legal right to do so.

How about the teachers, a non-catholic won't be employed in over 90% of our primary schools. This is a state job paid for by taxes.

smacl

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

How about the teachers, a non-catholic won't be employed in over 90% of our primary schools.

I think that much like the pupils, many of them are simply playing a game of pretend for the sake of a quieter life.

patsman07

Unfortunately we have the system we have. An ever growing portion of the population are secularists who will never be happy with the status quo. The majority are apathetic about religion but are traditionalist, in the sense that they see communion, confirmation etc as a rite of passage.
The only solution is to move religious instruction to the end of the school day&allow secularists to collect their children before this class begins. But this would be opposed tooth and nail by the church. They'd prefer to throw a couple of schools away here&there, and keep current arrangements everywhere else.

Odhinn

tretorn wrote: »

There isnt any choice at all In Muslim countries so why are we removing Christian symbols from our schools in case we offend our “ new Irish”.
.

So - just to be sure - you think there should be no choice here because of what happens in Saudi Arabia.

tretorn

But there is a choice here and most people are very happy with their local schools.

Where is this demand for divestment coming from, I don’t know any parent who wants their catholic school to divest and I know a few Protestant parents and they definitely want their children educated among their own kind.

I don’t care about the new Irish, they can avail of whatever education we offer and be grateful for it, if they have a problem then find another country to go to.

If the majority in the school don’t want change then move to an area where you can get your choice of education, here in Dublin that’s Tyrellstown, Clonee, Mulhuddart and all areas that have large immigrant populations. The department will only build new schools in areas of population growth and all these new schools are ET ones. Most of them are disadvantaged too so everything will be provided free, what more do you want.?