School patronage

Peregrinus

Bannasidhe wrote: »

However when the prevailing system has for generations created a link between education and religion people who have come through that system are preconditioned to think there isn't an alternative. They vote to keep the status quo.

We saw something similar during the MarRef campaign. It was frankly shocking how many people believed that to be a) legally married it had to happen in a Church and b) could not comprehend that the religious aspect of the marriage ceremony has zero legal standing - that the marriage occurred in the vestry with the priest acting as a Registrar. In this instance people did not vote to keep the status quo - but an awful lot of energy was spent explaining to people that the church part is not required.
We need to explain to people that in education the religion part is not required - but it's difficult to do that when the majority are educated in a system that intertwines the two.

Actually, this isn't correct. The legal part of a marriage is when the couple exchange vows in the presence of witnesses and before the celebrant. This is true for church marriages, civil marriages and registry office marriages. The signing of paperwork afterwards is no more the marriage, legally speaking, than registering a birth is a birth, or registering a death is a death.

But the wider point here, of course, is that there's a great gap between "people don't want church schools" and "people who want church schools should have their wishes disregarded, because they are too brainwashed to make the decision that they would make if they were as enlightened as me". I don't think the second is really a vote-winner, and you have, ahem, a low chance of persuading the Dept of Education to make the patronage decisions you want them to make by advancing that argument. If you think parents are expressing the wrong patronage preference, you have much more chance of persuading them to express the preference you want than of persuading the Department to ignore the preference they do express.

Hotblack Desiato

Peregrinus wrote: »

Actually, this isn't correct. The legal part of a marriage is when the couple exchange vows in the presence of witnesses and before the celebrant. This is true for church marriages, civil marriages and registry office marriages. The signing of paperwork afterwards is no more the marriage, legally speaking, than registering a birth is a birth, or registering a death is a death.

Very jesuitical.

But if you fail to sign on the dotted line, you ain't married.

Hotblack Desiato

Fewer than half of all marriages in Ireland now take place in a church (any kind of church not just RC).

Our education system is, literally, decades behind our society and that's just not good enough.

As for consultation with parents, it's almost always conspicuous by its complete absence. In relation to the (few) proposed divestments, it's invariably only parents who already have kids enrolled locally who are consulted and the process is a largely pointless exercise in FUD and inertia. Those forced to send their kids out of the area are excluded twice over. Those who will be seeking schools for their kids in the near future are not considered at all.

But in my area, Dept of Education did a de Valera and decided it knew best. The two large single-sex RC schools got extended, and there remains no ET (or even a blasted CNS) in the area. There was no consultation whatsoever.

What was that you were saying about expressing patronage preferences? :rolleyes:

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Very jesuitical.

But if you fail to sign on the dotted line, you ain't married.

Yes, you are.

You have committed the offence of failing to register a marriage (and so has the celebrant, I think) but you are legally married. Just like, if you fail to register a birth or a death, the person concerned is still born, or dead.

In each of these cases, all kinds of practical problems will ensue. But in none of these cases is the legal consequence that the event that you were required to register is deemed never to have taken place.

(And this works in reverse, too; if you register a birth, death or marriage that hasn't taken place, there is still no birth, death or marriage; you have just committed the crime of making a false registration.)

Flinty997

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

...
But in my area, .... there remains no ET ... in the area. There was no consultation whatsoever....:

I moved to an area where I knew I was in the catchment for certain schools. Theres a good few ETs within easy distance if I wanted that. I have a vague recollection of a few surveys from the dept about patronage over the years. I found an example of one here, just at random.

https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2019-press-releases/PR19-09-09.html

Hotblack Desiato

Yes, that's what they do in an area of growing population where they are building new school(s).

If the population isn't growing, or the Dept of Education just decide to extend the existing religious schools, then you're screwed.

Flinty997

Unless of course you move, or travel out of your local area to get the school you want.

Which lots of people do.

Hotblack Desiato

Do you think it's acceptable that people should have to do these things?

At least you didn't say emigrate, or set up my own school 🙄

Flinty997

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117648037#Comment_117648037

What do you mean by acceptable? Its a bit vague.

If I move to somewhere, with no schools. Is it acceptable that I have to travel to somewhere where there are schools. How would that be different?

The OP was discussing a survey where parents would be able to vote on a change of patronage. Some where unhappy as they feel minorities would be outvoted.

Hotblack Desiato

There are schools everywhere ffs.

But 90% of them treat my kids and the kids of other non-catholic parents as second class citizens.

Do you think that is acceptable?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117651253#Comment_117651253

10% is around 300 schools that are "acceptable".

That's a lot of schools to reject before you have to choose one of the unacceptable ones.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658055#Comment_117658055

Educate together has 95 NS and 19 secondary.

The vast majority of which are in the Greater Dublin area.

Live in Athlone? Tough, You have no choice.

Clonmel? Ditto

Mallow? Soz.

Looks like Roscommon, Cavan, Longford, Tipp have zero. In fact there is a line of no choice running up the middle of the island.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1EJwizQ-nIqe-Aokcnacgm-O70T0&hl=en&ll=52.96394293785543%2C-7.244281695312571&z=8

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658476#Comment_117658476

Even in areas where there are educate together schools, they're grossly oversubscribed. Most of those hoping to enroll in their local ET schools will be disappointed.

Hotblack Desiato

Just in case anyone gets the impression this is an "outside Dublin" problem, there are many areas of the city (including the large suburb where I live) with no ET, and you have little chance of getting your child into one in another area as if you're outside the catchment area you're usually behind everyone else on the admissions list.

Flinty997

Working off 10% that was given, thats 300 schools, you have 4~5 yrs of advance notice of both the Kids needing to go to school, and the admission policies of schools. Its normal (especially in Dublin, and for that matter around the world) that huge numbers of kids go to school outside their local areas. Half the traffic is school kids travelling all over this place. Even outside of Dublin its still a small county. There a load of schools within a reasonable commute of most people.

So the argument there's nothing local, especially in Dublin, is pretty feeble argument.

I know a bunch of parents with kids in ETs. None are local to them. It might be hard, but its not impossible as is being painted here.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117661407#Comment_117661407

Can you provide a reference for this 10% and 300 schools please, you've mentioned it twice yet it seems contradictory to figures published by Educate Together here; https://www.educatetogether.ie/schools/parents/ If you bother to do any research, you'll note that ET schools are massively oversubscribed, e.g. this article states a factor of six https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/educate-together-schools-massively-over-subscribed-31001877.html and this article tells a similar story; https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/educate-together-schools-oversubscribed-3840735-Feb2018/ Personally, I've a number of friends who wanted to get their kids into the local ET school, put their names down shortly after birth and failed to get a place. Unfortunately, this is the case for most parents seeking to get their kids into ET schools. It is also worth pointing out that very many Catholics also choose ET schools by preference as they support the ethos that celebrates diversity and inclusivity, which further affects oversubscription rates.

robindch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117661407#Comment_117661407

"It might be hard"?

That's the point of this discussion - glad you agree.

Hotblack Desiato

It's not 10% that are ET, it's 10% which are non-catholic - most of these are Church of Ireland. ETs are about 3% of primary schools.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117663228#Comment_117663228

You said 90% of them were unacceptable. I assumed that left 10% that were acceptable.

I guess we are shifting the goal posts down to 3%. But no its less that.

You also ruled out schools you aren't currently in the catchment of. if I did that it would rule out almost all but one the schools around me. For example it would rule out the school 10 mins walk from where I live. So my choice would be limited to 1 school out of 3000. Which wouldn't be true but its a good way to spin it.

In fact of the 9 or 10 schools, either I or mine have attended. It would rule out all but two of them.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117661912#Comment_117661912

I think some are finding easy "hard" to be honest.

Hotblack Desiato

When I mentioned 90% I was talking specifically about catholic schools. But most of the remaining 10% are also religious schools (Church of Ireland) and indoctrinate kids during the school day.

Whether you or I like it or not it's a fact that only about 3% of primary schools in this country, ETs, don't discriminate against kids on the basis of religion.

Also I am not the one excluding my kids from schools outside the catchment area, it's the massive oversubcription for ETs and the admission policies which (rightly) prioritise kids from the local area which do that.

Every child should be able to enrol in their local school and be treated fairly and equally same as everyone else. That only 3% of primary schools do this is a disgrace.

Flinty997

Until recently our local ET had a waiting list based on date of application not residency, so you could be living on Mars and pre-book a place in the school 4 or 5 years in advance, basically when the child is born.

"Every child should be able to enrol in their local school"

One of the reasons schools removed the length of residency rules in the first place was because only locals could get in, and there wasn't a diversity in the local schools. People moving into the area complained this was unfair, so they removed them. So now its moving to purely based on location. So people abuse this by renting near the school, then moving away once the child is enrolled. Or they build a massive estate beside the schools and displace all the locals. Which of course plays havoc with local communities.

You now have the Education (Admission to Schools) Act 2018 and the Equal Status Act 2000. I'm sure these will be just as manipulated as the previous policies.

robindch

"It might be hard", "these will be just as manipulated as the previous policies".

Great! You're coming around more and more to the position of most A+A posters - that the old laws allowed the RCC to manipulate admissions policy to make life hard for non-catholics.

Flinty997

Actually I meant other parents find all sorts of way to circumvent those policies and get their kids into ETs and such. But not here.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117669883#Comment_117669883

Do you have any actual evidence to back up the above assertion, because it runs contrary to not only to experiences stated here but also numerous published articles relating to oversubscription in ET schools?

Flinty997

LOL, Yes I've lists of all the parents, who have circumvented the rules for the admissions policies for all the schools, and how they did it for.

For all 3000 schools.

Flinty997

We are told you can't get into the ET not in your area. because you're not in the catchment and they are oversubscribed.

But until recently the ones I've direct experience of didn't have catchments. It was simply first come first served. So if you didn't get place you were simply late getting on the list. Since they polled far and wide when they were being planned, lots of people put their names on the lists very early. I don't see how one can be unaware a ET is being built, or is their area.

But if you can't, you can't. Good luck with the campaign.

Hotblack Desiato

Until a few years ago, most ETs had the first come, first served policy. This often meant you had no chance of getting in unless you put your kid's name down at birth, and not even then if he or she was born at the wrong time of year.

A few years back the Dept. of Education imposed a catchment area policy. In some ways, an improvement. But if you live in one of the very many areas with no ET, forget it because you now have no chance even if you enrol at birth.

Hotblack Desiato

You might enlighten us with just how many ETs you have "direct experience" of and what this entailed?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/a-teacher-writes-sacramental-preparation-should-not-be-a-school-responsibility-1.4651951

Only really focuses on the sacramental preparation aspects though, not religious instruction as a whole and the requirement that teachers teach specific beliefs whether they themselves hold these beliefs or not. They also may be obliged to lie about their beliefs to obtain or retain their job - the salary of which is paid by a supposedly secular state.

Placing the majority of sacramental preparation on schools can result in the religious segregation of children and their families – something that should not be part of school life. 

But this is what a system based on religious ethos does, by design.

The ethos of Catholic schools promotes inclusivity, tolerance and respect.

It does in its hoop!

A letter today in response:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/sacramental-preparation-and-schools-1.4661176

Sir, – Aoife McCloskey’s call to remove sacramental preparation from schools is timely (“A teacher writes”, August 31st).

Education Equality has been calling for the complete removal of religious instruction from our schools, including sacramental preparation, since 2015. As a teacher, McCloskey appears to agree. In doing so, she joins the growing chorus of voices calling for change.

Religious formation does not belong in the classroom. An increasing number of groups and individuals are coalescing around this simple, inescapable fact, despite looking at our education system from very different perspectives. And yet change remains elusive.

There are two fundamental roadblocks to reform. The first is that many influential figures within the Catholic Church are reluctant to cede control of schools. Its more conservative elements are quite comfortable with the current system of coercive evangelisation.

The second is that the Department of Education has no greater appetite for change than the church does. And with an issue as contentious and sensitive as this, the Government’s calculation seems to be that doing nothing offers the least political risk.

The problem for both church and State is that Irish society is changing at breakneck speed; 50 per cent of marriages are now non-religious while less than 35 per cent are Catholic.

In an increasingly secular Ireland, reform of our religious-controlled education system can only be deferred for so long. – Yours, etc,

DAVID GRAHAM,

Communications Officer,

Education Equality,

Malahide, Co Dublin.