School patronage

gaynorvader

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

{...}
You know, there are some days when I think a bloody revolution might not be such a bad thing after all.

To quote Thomas Jefferson:

Thomas Jefferson wrote:

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure.

Dades

I get the impression Quinn knows he's pissing into the wind with respect to any material changes to the current setup. Maybe he feels this small, sensible nod to the minority is something that could happen.

What it takes for it to happen, I don't know. It's a shame all people are taking away from the conference is unrelated outrage.

alaimacerc

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

It's the Labour party's version of prayer. They want to be seen to be looking to be doing something vaguely left wing, but they don't want to actually do anything vaguely left wing for fear of jepordising their promised future directorships, so they come out with these soundbites every so often. If you look at Ruadhri's whole career it is a whole series of these kinds of "ideas" with nothing concrete ever being done.

To be fair, we'll never actually know the different between a Labour party that wants to do something vaguely left wing and one that only wants to sound vaguely left wing until such time as it participates in a somewhat more left-wing government than the ones Ireland's had since... always.

There's probably more he could do merely with ministerial orders without recourse to cabinet or the Dáil in theory. But in practice he's constrained not just by those by also by what he can do without getting sacked by his coalition "partners", and what the "what we have, we hold" church refuseniks, standing on their so-called "property rights" and mob localism, will let happen at any detectable rate of change.

Banbh

If you are appointed to a job and find you can't do what you want to do but only what those who appointed you will accept, what would be the honourable thing to do?

And the answer is not, wait until you get the pension.

alaimacerc

I think the question is not "is he able to do everything he wanted to" in the role, but "is he able to do enough to make it worth the candle".

Verdict's still out. I might be guilty of giving him too much slack, perhaps, just on the basis of "seems to mostly have stopped making things worse", which is the baseline several successive FF govmints have established in my poor beleaguered brain.

recedite

Quinn's little suggestion is only a small gesture, almost enough to prevent the education system falling foul of European law and even our own Constitution.

Yet he is afraid to turn even that suggestion into a mandatory instruction.

If the State is funding a denominational school which chooses to use its allocated "religion class time" to give religious instruction (as opposed to a neutral education about religion then the parents must be allowed to opt out of the class. If the school is unwilling to provide alternative supervision (despite the fact that the State funding is conditional on the school complying with all the State curriculum requirements including this one) then the class should be held at the end of the day, so that at least some of the kids might at least have the option to avoid the indoctrination. Even then some will have to stay, because of transport issues etc.

Banbh

Those in charge of the educational system know full well that if they concede religion at either end of the day, there'll be no kids at religion instruction within a couple of weeks. I fear that Quinn will do nothing.

expectationlost

Education paper to offer religion opt out http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/article1404460.ece ST €

PROPOSALS by education minister Ruairi Quinn to schedule religion classes at the beginning or end of a school day are “very likely” to be included in a white paper on inclusive schools say education sources.

alaimacerc

expectationlost wrote: »

ST €

I'll have to ask my friend the ET governor and zealous Caitlin Moran fan, who I trust has... ways of accessing this article! (... such as, paying Rupert Murdoch lots of money, mainly.)

Be very interested in seeing the detail of this. Be even more interested in seeing it actually happen! Or else, it at least putting a bomb under the religious school types so's they made some sort of actual change towards actual detectable inclusivity.

expectationlost

alaimacerc wrote: »

I'll have to ask my friend the ET governor and zealous Caitlin Moran fan, who I trust has... ways of accessing this article! (... such as, paying Rupert Murdoch lots of money, mainly.)

Be very interested in seeing the detail of this. Be even more interested in seeing it actually happen! Or else, it at least putting a bomb under the religious school types so's they made some sort of actual change towards actual detectable inclusivity.

there's not much more detail in the article then you see at the paywalled link

Banbh

The fact that the Minister may or may not put this idea as a proposal into a White Paper, which is a discussion document designed for Ministers to kick responsibility for decision-making further along the road, means that its chances of ever being implemented by this administration are as close to zero as it is possible to get.

Delirium

What’s almost beyond belief, however, is that the State is openly advertising and supporting this discrimination. On the website of St Patrick’s teacher training college in Dublin (a State-funded college validated by the State-funded Dublin City University), the “frequently asked questions” section deals with the matter quite bluntly. Question: “If I choose not to study for the CRS, are there any repercussions?” Answer: “As the vast majority of schools are under Catholic management, you will be limiting the number of schools where you can hold a teaching position. Also, although some people have secured employment in Catholic schools in the past without the cert, many such teachers have found that upon seeking promotion . . . they are ineligible to apply.”

Fintan O'Toolle on school system /trainee teachers

alaimacerc

SW wrote: »

Fintan O'Toolle on school system /trainee teachers

Depressing (though informative) reading. I'm not sure if it's "state advertising", though: I think it might rather be as much of a "red flag" as they're able to throw up at present...

Bloe Joggs

It is depressing, and deflating. I was in a good mood until I read that. Some people think that religion will just go away if you ignore it but I beg to differ. In any case I don't think the world can wait that long. The more I think back to my school days, especially primary, the more I can see just how entrenched the teachers were in their faith, either that or some of them were doing a very good job of pretending otherwise. We used to spend literally hours and hours going over the same BS. The ones with doubts, me included, got singled out and life was never quite the same.

lazygal

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/education-people-the-teacher-in-a-first-holy-communion-class-1.1764091?page=1

Then we have this, from a teacher who's bought into the Alive O crap hook, line and sinker.

Why are the teaching unions putting up with this, their members forced into indoctrination? Do the teachers just not see a problem?

equivariant

lazygal wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/education-people-the-teacher-in-a-first-holy-communion-class-1.1764091?page=1

Then we have this, from a teacher who's bought into the Alive O crap hook, line and sinker.

Why are the teaching unions putting up with this, their members forced into indoctrination? Do the teachers just not see a problem?

Teaching unions - ughh! Some of the most conservative, reactionary, anti-education organisations in the country. They have repeatedly disgraced themselves over the last few years, so I certainly wouldn't expect any help on religious discrimination from that parish.

There are many, many outstanding teachers in this country - I wish some
of them would stand up to these so-called unions (imo, they are unworthy of the name union) and start an organisation that puts good practice and educational standards before special interests.

Pwpane

equivariant wrote: »

There are many, many outstanding teachers in this country - I wish some of them would stand up to these so-called unions (imo, they are unworthy of the name union) and start an organisation that puts good practice and educational standards before special interests.

Sorry - what do you think a union is for?

Employment issues are now 'special interests'?

expectationlost

Archbishop accuses politicians over patronage http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0430/614114-education-patronage/ labour politicians hampering secularisation, who he is he talking about

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/lsquopoliticians-delaying-handover-of-schoolsrsquo-267079.html

alaimacerc

expectationlost wrote: »

who he is he talking about

Can't name names, but it sounds a lot like the usual: local politicians acting like local politicians.

I've some sympathy with what he's saying, but the implication of it is that while any given school has 50%+1 that want some sort of "Catholic ethos", or even simply a plurality of opinion to that effect, "what we have we hold".

Where there's only one local school, why shouldn't there be "re-dimensioning"? Or where there's total incoherence between those on the Catholics spectrum that think that the Alive O programme is some religious nonsense worth tolerating to got into a "decent school", and those that think it's half-hearted and needs to be "doctrined up".

Hotblack Desiato

The only reason Diarmuid Martin is raising this divestitude issue is because he wants a few token non-catholic schools here and there to remove the pressure for change.

What he's afraid of is that nothing will happen for a few more years and then (on the off-chance we ever again have a Minister for Education who isn't a pious catholic ex-teacher) all schools are forced to make religious instruction completely optional for pupils.

So he is backing a small change which will give choice to a few in order to avoid a larger change which would give choice to all.

Cynical, much?

robindch

And in the Independant (qv) too:

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/alternative-to-catholic-schools-coming-too-slowly-martin-30234527.html

Independant wrote:

ARCHBISHOP Diarmuid Martin has admitted that options for parents who do not want to send their children to a Catholic school are developing "far too slowly". In his most clear-cut comments yet on the future control of schools, the Archbishop of Dublin said the Catholic Church had no "divine right" to a near monopoly on education in Ireland.

And he said the longer the church exercised such a near monopoly in the primary sector, the more difficult it would be to foster and maintain a genuine Catholic ethos in its own schools. And he stressed the need to form "new working relationships between church and State" to break down resistance to change.

Dr Martin set out his forthright views in an address in Galway to the annual conference of the Joint Managerial Body (JMB), which represents managers of Catholic secondary schools. He put forward a staunch defence of Catholic education, but made an equally strong case for more choice, in order to respect the rights and beliefs of families of different faiths and traditions.

Dr Martin referred to the recent amalgamation of two Catholic primary schools in Dublin to free up a premises for a multi-denominational Educate Together school. It was the first such handover facilitated by the Catholic Church, which he described as "an expression not of a retreat from the tradition of Catholic education, but of the beginnings of a new presence". The Catholic Church runs about 3,000 of the State's 3,200 primary school while Educate Together has 68.

He said in the Dublin area, with an increasing number of Educate Together and other schools, that the alternative was growing – "albeit far too slowly". He said that opposition often came from within local Catholic communities but it can also come – as he said said to Education Minister Ruairi Quinn – from local political representatives, including some from the Labour Party.

Archbishop Martin said Catholic education had a vital place in the Irish system, and would continue to play that role, but in future would be working alongside other schools that embraced a different ethos. "Pluralism is something we should welcome. The Catholic children of the Ireland of the future will live in a climate of pluralism – and must learn not to fear pluralism," he said.

He said Catholic schools could accommodate children of families of different faiths and outlooks, but that "did not mean that the current situation in which the number of Catholic schools greatly exceeds the percentage of Catholics in the population is one that is satisfactory. "There are people in Ireland who wish their children to attend schools without any religious ethos. "The State would be failing in its duty if it did not see that such citizens can exercise that right."

He said for the Catholic school system to work and to be able to provide authentic Catholic religious education, it required that there be a viable, accessible and tested system of alternatives. "It may seem a paradox, but the longer the church exercises a near monopoly in primary education, the more difficult it will be to foster and maintain a genuine Catholic ethos in those schools," the archbishop added.

Bloe Joggs

This is all damage control, plenty of words but no action, buying time to think on a new strategy. The education system is one of the primary tools of religious indoctrination so there is no way in this universe they are going to give an inch on that in any sense that matters. They'll come up with some cleverly worded and packaged compromise that will attempt to keep the UN satisfied and fool them that it's all been fixed and everything's ok now when they come back in a few years but something tells me that they won't be able to pull the wool over their eyes so easily. Then a new report will be issued and the same thing will happen all over again, and again, for decades, because that's the Irish way, we're hugely resistant to change in this forsaken ****hole and sadly some people see that as a good thing.

Dades

If they really recognise the discrimination against non-catholic parents then offering a smattering of non-denominational schools is only paying lip-service to the problem.

I'd much rather they moved religion to the end of the day than hand over a few more token schools.

equivariant

Pwpane wrote: »

Employment issues are now 'special interests'?

Where did I say that???

alaimacerc

equivariant wrote: »

Where did I say that???

Could you perhaps enlighten us as to what you meant by "special interests" you were referring to that "these so-called unions" are improperly concerning themselves, that are in contradistinction to "good practice and educational standards"?

Because if "employment issues" isn't a fair summary of what you were trying to say, then you really were dropping the ball in your attempts at saying it.

expectationlost

the The Education Boards membership will be renewed shortly after the election http://cdetb.ie/About-Us/Election-2014.aspx but nobody will say which politicians are hamering diversification of schools, should we know their names before the election

expectationlost

interesting editorial from the IT on bish DM blaming local issues for lack of progress

The church has indicated that decisions on school patronage will have to be taken by the local communities involved. That represents an abdication of leadership. It is similar to the Vatican’s insistence on the independence of national churches when things go wrong. Such an approach may buy time in preserving outdated structures and disguising the thinly-veiled power of bishops. In the longer term, it is likely to be counter-productive.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/religion-in-schools-1.1770194

alaimacerc

expectationlost wrote: »

interesting editorial from the IT on bish DM blaming local issues for lack of progress http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/religion-in-schools-1.1770194

Excellent article. Entirely depressing situation.

recedite

This "abdication of leadership" afflicts the govt. and the Dept. of Education just as much as the bishops.

In the meantime, any publicly funded school that can maintain even a slight majority of RC parents feels fully entitled to indoctrinate all local kids with their own religion. Diarmuid Martin can throw up his hands and say "its not me doing it, its the local community". Effectively it is the tyranny of the majority being perpetuated as the status quo.

The only way to break the cycle is for people to boycott these schools, and to actively campaign to set up new schools. Then, over a period of time, many of these old schools will gradually wither and die, leading to amalgamations and empty school buildings.
That is hard work, and wasteful of resources, but in the absence of leadership it is the only way.

Obliq

recedite wrote: »

This "abdication of leadership" afflicts the govt. and the Dept. of Education just as much as the bishops.

In the meantime, any publicly funded school that can maintain even a slight majority of RC parents feels fully entitled to indoctrinate all local kids with their own religion. Diarmuid Martin can throw up his hands and say "its not me doing it, its the local community". Effectively it is the tyranny of the majority being perpetuated as the status quo.

The only way to break the cycle is for people to boycott these schools, and to actively campaign to set up new schools. Then, over a period of time, many of these old schools will gradually wither and die, leading to amalgamations and empty school buildings.
That is hard work, and wasteful of resources, but in the absence of leadership it is the only way.

First off, that's unworkable. I am in just such a community - well, the overwhelming majority of kids in the school are RC, and there's under 50 in the school. The neighbouring village has a much more marginal percentage difference.

When I sent my kids to the local school, it was very uncommon for blow-ins to send their kids there, and the next village looked much better to most as there were more people there who hadn't had a rural upbringing and therefore they had more in common from the outset, not least that many were not religious.

Now, from a city perspective, it might be thought that the obvious thing to do is make the other village into a secular school (that's one common perspective) and abandon the more RCC school to the RC people. Fact is that I can see how unworkable the divide would be, especially in the way you suggest (through boycotting).

The small school in my village (that people were actually driving past to go to the other one) was losing out places to the overcrowded and divisively elitist school, but I wanted my kids to know the kids in this village and I wanted to know the people. Since then, my school has made a massive turn around in management and communication with parents over the last 10 years. More and more "blow-ins" are preferring to send the kids there as although the RCC influence remains, the attitude of the school towards staying alive in a tiny community, with the backing of the entire community is really attractive, as are the staff. It would be a crime against an entire area to boycott such a school.

Baby steps. That's all that can happen in these rural areas, if you plan on staying the rest of your life here (or a sizeable part of it). An integrated community means much more than the smaller issue of my kids (like so many in the country) sitting out religion class and the like. I mean, when people of other religions and none start to settle in an RCC based community, if we don't integrate then the cohesion of the community is screwed. By integration, I mean knowing everyone here having met them all at the school gates and the pub, at the PA meetings and at the pitch (just not in church).

I've been here 20 years, my kids have nearly left the primary school and I've only just approached the issue with the PA (there were some other issues with the school that were more important). You might be interested to know that it came as a big surprise to my friends that their faith formation during school hours is not on the curriculum. It also came as a complete head's up to realise that this is an issue that won't go away, is gaining traction and they're going to need a plan of action - one that they all suggested and agreed would be about inclusivity. I bolded the "friends" word because if I had boycotted them, I wouldn't have made any here.

As for your sentence above, I completely agree with you. However, let's go gently eh? These are my friends and I'll be putting that sentence in a much more diplomatic way