School patronage

evolving_doors

recedite wrote: »

........

He says he does not want religion to be just "a veneer". A veneer is an add-on, something that just exists on the surface, like teaching a single religion class at the end of the day would be. Traditional religious indoctrination permeates every aspect of the school day. It is integrated into other subjects, as well as general school activities. It is not confined to one class, and certainly not to an optional class.

Yes I've heard this indoctrination 'permeates' into other subjects tosh before. Prey tell... How do you permeate religion into maths , maybe I can finally figure out how 5 loaves and 2 fish divide into thousands?

What's wrong with Sunday school anyhow?

PopePalpatine

Armelodie wrote: »

Yes I've heard this indoctrination 'permeates' into other subjects tosh before. Pray tell... How do you permeate religion into maths, maybe I can finally figure out how 5 loaves and 2 fish divide into thousands?

Irish was one subject that was quite permeated by religion, in my own experience. Mass (or "aifreann") popped up quite a few times in my Irish textbooks during primary school, and it was always this happy-clappy event where Pól and Máire had big stupid grins as if they've consumed the entire batch of ecstasy carried by the average 1990s Ibiza drug dealer.

recedite

Armelodie wrote: »

Yes I've heard this indoctrination 'permeates' into other subjects tosh before. Prey tell... How do you permeate religion into maths ..

What's wrong with Sunday school anyhow?

Prey ... or pray tell. Nice freudian spelling slip there

Its not easy, but student teachers are taught all the tricks in the training colleges about how to integrate religion into other subjects. I'm not a teacher so I can't give a real example, but I know how it works in principle. So just off the top of my head, I'll make one up; "If ten pairs of animals boarded Noahs Ark in half an hour, how many animals boarded in one hour?"
That's apart from the fact that the kids who aren't even listening are probably staring at some religious statue or picture on the wall.
And assuming maths class has not been cancelled because the entire class has been marched down to the church for first communion practice or some "special" prayer event.

Yes, sunday school is the proper place for all that stuff.

robindch

Armelodie wrote: »

How do you permeate religion into maths

Here's a line from the (good) Saudi film, Wadjda - "Father, did you know that the Theorem of Pythagoras expresses the infinity of god - the triangle always stays the same!"

Armelodie wrote: »

What's wrong with Sunday school anyhow?

It's something you have to choose to do, so many people may not make that choice. It's a more effective infection strategy if you control the schools, then make it just difficult or socially unacceptable to avoid indoctrination which is a normal part of the school day.

Brian Shanahan

Armelodie wrote: »

Yes I've heard this indoctrination 'permeates' into other subjects tosh before. Prey tell... How do you permeate religion into maths , maybe I can finally figure out how 5 loaves and 2 fish divide into thousands?

What's wrong with Sunday school anyhow?

There's a series of "schoolbooks" called the Alive-O series, which exist in most schools (due to their ultra-rcc nature) which tend to try and educate children in mainstream subjects while imparting a catholic ethos (said catholic ethos is not the same catholic ethos as available to members of the hierarchy, obviously, don't want the proles enjoying the same stuff you get up to).

lazygal

It's easy to permeate the school day with doctrine. Art is religious stuff to decorate the church, music is choir practice for church or religious assemblies and geography and history and English can easily contain religious references. Not to mention the 30 minutes of religious lessons and preparation for sacraments, plus the local religious personnel droppinginto classrooms.

evolving_doors

robindch wrote: »

Here's a line from the (good) Saudi film, Wadjda - "Father, did you know that the Theorem of Pythagoras expresses the infinity of god - the triangle always stays the same!"It's something you have to choose to do, so many people may not make that choice. It's a more effective infection strategy if you control the schools, then make it just difficult or socially unacceptable to avoid indoctrination which is a normal part of the school day.

Well thats a perfect example of indoctorination bashing true learning over the head... The triangle doesn't stay the same with the pythagorean theorem.. The theorem holds true for any right angled triangle.

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

We are going to have a right mix of fundamentalists growing up in the next few years; it looks like segregation is going to be the order of the day. Hard-core Catholics this way, Muslims that way, Protestants over there, and for anyone else left over, there is Educate Together.

I am deeply, deeply uncomfortable about this. I am sure that Ruairi Quinn can see where current policies are leading - why isn't he doing more to stop this segregation?

Brian Shanahan

ninja900 wrote: »

I am deeply, deeply uncomfortable about this. I am sure that Ruairi Quinn can see where current policies are leading - why isn't he doing more to stop this segregation?

Because why do something positive when you can cash your monthly TD pay cheque, your monthly ministerial pay cheque and smell the sweet, sweet smell of new leather on your ministerial Merc. Sitting around all day doing nothing takes a lot effort you know.

SpaceTime

The problem is that he's up against an entire organisation of Sir Humphrey's and vested interests who will not change easily.

The Church institutions are clearly absolutely embedded in the Department of Education and also the teaching professions.

It's hardly surprising as that's what they've been brought up with and had their carers developed through.

To really impact change we'd need a lot more than just one minister calling for it. The Government isn't really too keen on doing anything too dramatic and Fine Gael's extremely conservative on these kinds of issues and will probably see no reason for change.

Same with Fianna Fail historically.

You have to start putting pressure on election candidates about these kinds of issues or nothing will ever change.

I'm actually making a point of bringing up atheist / non-religious rights and also multiculturalism in education, health etc with any politician that comes to my door. They take it quite seriously if you present a succinct argument.

A lot of Irish people just don't think about it because that's what we all grew up with - school = something provided in a church run context and think sending your kids off to gender-segrated schools in weird looking uniforms is totally normal all over the world.

Brian Shanahan

SpaceTime wrote: »

The problem is that he's up against an entire organisation of Sir Humphrey's and vested interests who will not change easily.

Name me one thing that Quinn has ever done as a minister, both in this government and in his Spring days.

dited

Excellent article in today's Irish Times about the need to address religious discrimination in enrolment policies.

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

We are going to have a right mix of fundamentalists growing up in the next few years; it looks like segregation is going to be the order of the day.

ninja900 wrote: »

I am deeply, deeply uncomfortable about this. I am sure that Ruairi Quinn can see where current policies are leading - why isn't he doing more to stop this segregation?

Can't say this really stands up compared to the other points being made on the thread though;

Firstly, if 90% of schools are currently subject to rcc 'indoctrination', and have been for decades, why don't we have a population with 90% rcc fundamentalists now? Rather than a right mix of fundamentalists, I think it's more likely we'll just have a greater diversity of religious opinion, and more diversity of background amongst atheists/agnostics as a result of these schools coming into being.

Secondly, I'm uncomfortable with the term 'segregation'. These religious ethos schools aren't being foisted on anyone, they're being opened by people who want them. The 'powers that be' aren't segregating anyone; people are choosing to open schools that fit their ethos, which sounds more like freedom of association than segregation to me.

I'd be inclined to welcome more schools like this if it could be assured that all state funded schools would ensure parity of education and admission for children from all faiths and none, and restrict education in religion (as distinct from education on religion) to non-state funded hours.

Bloe Joggs

Absolam wrote: »

Can't say this really stands up compared to the other points being made on the thread though;

Firstly, if 90% of schools are currently subject to rcc 'indoctrination', and have been for decades, why don't we have a population with 90% rcc fundamentalists now? Rather than a right mix of fundamentalists, I think it's more likely we'll just have a greater diversity of religious opinion, and more diversity of background amongst atheists/agnostics as a result of these schools coming into being.

Secondly, I'm uncomfortable with the term 'segregation'. These religious ethos schools aren't being foisted on anyone, they're being opened by people who want them. The 'powers that be' aren't segregating anyone; people are choosing to open schools that fit their ethos, which sounds more like freedom of association than segregation to me.

I'd be inclined to welcome more schools like this if it could be assured that all state funded schools would ensure parity of education and admission for children from all faiths and none, and restrict education in religion (as distinct from education on religion) to non-state funded hours.

"Firstly, if 90% of schools are currently subject to rcc 'indoctrination', and have been for decades, why don't we have a population with 90% rcc fundamentalists now?"

Simple, because some people get over it. Some remain fundamentalists their whole life, most just go along with the programme because they don't want to stick their necks out and also buried deep in their unconscious is the fear of hell, one of the really truthful reasons the church manages to keep their customers. Society in this country is loaded against people who don't go along with the programme.

Absolam

Bloe Joggs wrote: »

Simple, because some people get over it. <...>

So in short, we're not likely to see an explosion of religious fundamentalism as a result of religious schools.

lazygal

Absolam wrote: »

Firstly, if 90% of schools are currently subject to rcc 'indoctrination', and have been for decades, why don't we have a population with 90% rcc fundamentalists now? Rather than a right mix of fundamentalists, I think it's more likely we'll just have a greater diversity of religious opinion, and more diversity of background amongst atheists/agnostics as a result of these schools coming into being.

Do you have children? I do, and I am one of a tiny minority who hasn't baptized them. My contemporaries openly say they've baptized because of school places and because they don't want their children left out of communion and confirmation when in school. That kind of soft indoctrination is what's maintaining the school patronage system. If any other publicly funded system like healthcare, for example, said they prioritized Catholics, then other christian faiths, then people living in the area, then anyone else, regardless of need, there would be a national outcry. There is a strong feeling that because things in Ireland have always been this way that there's nothing wrong with the current system. Sure there's a few more Educate Together schools around the place and sure why don't you just baptise, you're just being awkward. Why should religion be any sort of factor in whether a child can attend a school?

Absolam

lazygal wrote: »

Why should religion be any sort of factor in whether a child can attend a school?

I think you probably didn't read all the way through my post?

Absolam wrote: »

I'd be inclined to welcome more schools like this if it could be assured that all state funded schools would ensure parity of education and admission for children from all faiths and none, and restrict education in religion (as distinct from education on religion) to non-state funded hours.

kylith

Absolam wrote: »

So in short, we're not likely to see an explosion of religious fundamentalism as a result of religious schools.

Maybe not of fundamentalism, but I do think that an Us and Them mindset could arise from such schools. Inter-school rivalries can be bad enough without running them along sectarian lines.

Bloe Joggs

Absolam wrote: »

So in short, we're not likely to see an explosion of religious fundamentalism as a result of religious schools.

I said some people get over it, that still leaves lots that don't but that's not really the point. In this country, there was only ever a certain percentage of the population that you could call fundamentalist catholics, the rest still called themselves catholic and upkept the foundation that enabled the fundamentalists to flourish, in essence you don't have to be a fundamentalist to remain under the spell. But all this is semantic tennis, the fact is that all religions are fundamentalist by their very nature.

The only sensible answer to this question is to keep religion out of schools altogether because you can't cater for everyone, that will prove to be completely unworkable if it goes ahead, which I'm guessing is the thinking behind it.

Keep religion completely out of education, that's the only sensible answer. The church opposes this because they know right well that it would be the beginning of the end of their iron grip not just on people's lives but their minds.

SpaceTime

Bloe Joggs wrote: »

"Firstly, if 90% of schools are currently subject to rcc 'indoctrination', and have been for decades, why don't we have a population with 90% rcc fundamentalists now?"

Simple, because some people get over it. Some remain fundamentalists their whole life, most just go along with the programme because they don't want to stick their necks out and also buried deep in their unconscious is the fear of hell, one of the really truthful reasons the church manages to keep their customers. Society in this country is loaded against people who don't go along with the programme.

We certainly had a significant and powerful percentage of the population that behaved like fundamentalist catholics until the 1990s really when you think about it.

Hotblack Desiato

SpaceTime wrote: »

We certainly had a significant and powerful percentage of the population that behaved like fundamentalist catholics until the 1990s really when you think about it.

Only just over 20 years ago -

https://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2009/09/09/christian-principles-party-jobs-for-youth-not-condoms/

The Christian Principles Party, one of the many ‘Right wing Catholic Parties’ to spring up since Fianna Fail started showing liberal tendencies.
This is from the 1991 Local Elections where Sean Clerkin narrowly missed out on winning a seat, polling over 1,000 votes in the Drumcondra ward!
‘Jobs for Youth-Not Condoms’ has to be one of the worst election slogans ever.

Absolam

kylith wrote: »

Maybe not of fundamentalism, but I do think that an Us and Them mindset could arise from such schools. Inter-school rivalries can be bad enough without running them along sectarian lines.

Possibly, but would that really be because of the religion of the schools, or because school rivalries are drawn based on whatever lines are available. Which is to say, if it's not religion, it's country vs city, northside vs southside, D4 vs D6 etc. Whilst some degree of school rivalry lasts a while after school (damn Ardscoil Ris!) it hardly rises to the level of sectarianism....

Bloe Joggs wrote: »

the fact is that all religions are fundamentalist by their very nature.

I think that's a rather massive overgeneralisation, but anyway, the members of religious groups may be fundamentalist, or a la carte, or something in between, and that's who we're talking about.

Bloe Joggs wrote: »

Keep religion completely out of education, that's the only sensible answer. The church opposes this because they know right well that it would be the beginning of the end of their iron grip not just on people's lives but their minds.

I think you're missing the point that people want religion in education. The people who are supporting building these new schools for example. Whatever the various churches/religions as organisations want, it is parents choosing to send their children to religious schools; if that's what most people want then it's not sensible to try and keep religion out of education, it's sensible to find a workable solution for everyone.

SpaceTime wrote: »

We certainly had a significant and powerful percentage of the population that behaved like fundamentalist catholics until the 1990s really when you think about it.

From our present perspective that's true. However, the education system did not change significantly in the 80s in terms of religious education, so it would seem from your example that the lack of current catholic fundamentalism (and therefore the previous fundamentalist catholic behaviour) has no correlation with the education system?

kylith

Absolam wrote: »

Possibly, but would that really be because of the religion of the schools, or because school rivalries are drawn based on whatever lines are available. Which is to say, if it's not religion, it's country vs city, northside vs southside, D4 vs D6 etc. Whilst some degree of school rivalry lasts a while after school (damn Ardscoil Ris!) it hardly rises to the level of sectarianism....

Not at the moment, but would it if the other school weren't just athletic rivals but 'a bunch of feckin' Muslims'? If you don't know anyone of a religion it's easy to fall into believing the prejudices that you hear in the paper, or on telly, or from idiots, whereas if you're all in the same school they stop being someone with a weird religion that Teacher says is wrong and start being Arif, who likes Liverpool and Transformers too, and who helped you with you maths homework.

Cabaal

Absolam wrote: »

I think you're missing the point that people want religion in education. The people who are supporting building these new schools for example. Whatever the various churches/religions as organisations want, it is parents choosing to send their children to religious schools; if that's what most people want then it's not sensible to try and keep religion out of education, it's sensible to find a workable solution for everyone.

Do they though or are they just going through the motions because there are no local options for them?

For me I'd have to end up sending my kids to the local catholic ethos school, not because I want to but because I don't have any local options that wouldn't impact on their quality of life (adding a large commute to/from school etc).

Saying people want religious schools because the schools are used is like claiming in the 1980's that there's no demand for the average Joe to use condoms and thats why they aren't being sold. When in reality there were massive road blocks in place to stop the avg Joe buying condoms.

When there's no choice, it makes it hard for parents to vote with their feet.

For anyone that thinks its fine for most schools to be catholic ethos and that non-faith people should just get over themselves, they are never as understanding when you ask them what would they do if the vast majority of schools were of Islamic ethos.....funny that

Absolam

kylith wrote: »

Not at the moment, but would it if the other school weren't just athletic rivals but 'a bunch of feckin' Muslims'? If you don't know anyone of a religion it's easy to fall into believing the prejudices that you hear in the paper, or on telly, or from idiots, whereas if you're all in the same school they stop being someone with a weird religion that Teacher says is wrong and start being Arif, who likes Liverpool and Transformers too, and who helped you with you maths homework.

Would it though? There were other schools in the area where I grew up; the rivalry was reserved for the schools we competed with, but since the 'other' schools weren't exactly GAA oriented they remained curiosities, rather than objects of hate, and this was in a time when Ireland was apparently more significantly fundamentalist than it is now. I suspect an increase in diversified schools would just do away with the curiosity factor, leaving aside the fact that all schools should still be obliged to take pupils from other backgrounds as I said, so Arif, or Patrick, is still probably going to be there.

Cabaal wrote: »

Do they though or are they just going through the motions because there are no local options for them?

Well, in the case in point it seems they do.

Cabaal wrote: »

Saying people want religious schools because the schools are used is like claiming in the 1980's that there's no demand for the average Joe to use condoms and thats why they aren't being sold.

You misunderstand; I was saying people want religious schools because they're choosing to open them, as in Recidites post.

Cabaal wrote: »

For anyone that thinks its fine for most schools to be catholic ethos and that non-faith people should just get over themselves, they are never as understanding when you ask them what would they do if the vast majority of schools were of Islamic ethos.....funny that

Yes, the school he was posting about being opened is an Islamic ethos one

Cabaal

Absolam wrote: »

Yes, the school he was posting about being opened is an Islamic ethos one

you missed my point,
If 90% of schools in Ireland were tax payer funded Muslim ethos schools, do you honestly think that catholics would be ok to just go to them anyway and be ok with their taxes being used to fund them?

No, of course they wouldn't.

Absolam

Cabaal wrote: »

you missed my point, If 90% of schools in Ireland were tax payer funded Muslim ethos schools, do you honestly think that catholics would be ok to just go to them anyway and be ok with their taxes being used to fund them? No, of course they wouldn't.

I didn't miss the point, it just didn't seem terribly relevant to the discussion of religious schools other than catholic ones being opened.
My guess is if 90% of schools in Ireland were tax payer funded secular ethos schools, catholics would be paying to build catholic ethos schools like muslims are paying to build muslim ethos schools now.

gaynorvader

Absolam wrote: »

I didn't miss the point, it just didn't seem terribly relevant to the discussion of religious schools other than catholic ones being opened.
My guess is if 90% of schools in Ireland were tax payer funded secular ethos schools, catholics would be paying to build catholic ethos schools like muslims are paying to build muslim ethos schools now.

Probably not, as the kids could be taught Catholic dogma in secular schools as an after school/lunchtime/alternative to PE class. Whereas Muslims have it even harder than atheists at the moment as Catholicism actively teaches things that Muslims hold to be blasphemous.
It's worth, I think, noting again that secular schools would not be teaching "there is no God", but just not teaching "there is this God, the rest are wrong and evil".

Absolam

gaynorvader wrote: »

Probably not, as the kids could be taught Catholic dogma in secular schools as an after school/lunchtime/alternative to PE class.

That's really not going to cut it for parents who actually want a catholic ethos though, is it? Much as a nod towards ecumenicism didn't really cut it for protestants.
I suspect the only reason that 90% isn't substantially lower is that there hasn't been a great deal of immigration into Ireland up until the last decade or two; as we see more immigration of different faiths, or variations of the same faiths, there will be an increasing proportion of faith schools in Ireland that are not catholic, but have some other religious ethos. I think we'll discover that the reason these schools exist is less because of the machinations of the organisations that run them, and more because of the people that use them.

swampgas

Absolam wrote: »

That's really not going to cut it for parents who actually want a catholic ethos though, is it?

I suspect that what most Irish parents want is a bit of a day out for communion and confirmation, and very little else. It's not like Irish "Catholic" parents are all that keen on following Catholic dogma outside of school, so I don't see why it should be such a big deal to reduce the amount of dogma inside school to match.