School patronage

expectationlost

ninja900 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/quinn-advises-teachers-to-study-re-to-boost-their-job-prospects-1.1840363



It's hardly optional if over 90% of schools won't employ you without it, is it?

exceptional spin here, what he's done is endorse the problem

I Heart Internet

Last week in the job for him, anything goes!

expectationlost

Parents march 
in protest at plan 
to close school http://www.herald.ie/news/parents-march-in-protest-at-plan-to-close-school-30377732.html

Parents and teachers fight to keep ‘the best school in Ballyfermot’ open
http://www.thejournal.ie/protest-school-ballyfermot-1524324-Jun2014/

they say it is about the number of students to be put into the fewer schools... don't know if a secular school would be opened on grounds of closed school certainly not all the grounds

a map with the schools and ground mapped out would be useful

this the massive school http://www.delasalleballyfermot.ie/

https://maps.google.ie/maps?q=ballyfermot+dublin&ll=53.342661,-6.342437&spn=0.002716,0.006968&hnear=Ballyfermot,+County+Dublin&gl=ie&t=h&z=18 still got fields behind it, primed for housing

http://www.irelandstats.com/school/de-la-salle-national-school-rollnumber-20391g/

expectationlost

FOT pointed to this article about how Quinn used to think Catholic Schools Could Fall into Wrong Hands - http://www.irishsalem.com/religious-congregations/opus-dei/quinn-cathschools.php - Quinn Labour TD Ruairi Quinn has claimed that Catholic schools could fall into the control of right wing Catholic fundamentalists unless they are taken into State ownership.

Hotblack Desiato

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/church-won-t-have-to-kick-out-the-awkward-teachers-because-it-won-t-let-them-in-1.1842605

Fintan O'Toole wrote:

The Belize case is interesting because it gives us an outside perspective on an aspect of Irish law. It seemed pretty clear to the Belize chief justice that it is intolerable in a constitutional democracy to allow public employees, paid by the state, to be fired because their private lives do not conform to a particular church’s teaching. Yet in Ireland, the Eileen Flynn judgment is still the law of the land. It was written into legislation in section 37 of the Employment Equality Act of 1998...
<snip>


I’ve raised here recently the extraordinary situation in which State-funded teacher training colleges are telling their students that their degrees will be of limited use unless they also take a diploma in “faith formation” for Catholic or Protestant schools. In effect, public universities are colluding in a system of open discrimination in which atheist, Muslim, or Orthodox would-be teachers have to sign up to become missionaries for faiths to which they do not belong if they are to be eligible to work in the bulk of taxpayer-funded teaching jobs.

Astonishingly, last Friday, Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn endorsed this message, telling The Irish Times that “Teachers seeking to maximise their job prospects would be advised to study religious education”.

What’s happening, then, is this: as a quid pro quo for not being allowed to fire teachers on religious grounds, the church is being given reinforced control over who gets employed in the first place. It won’t have to kick out the awkward ones because it won’t let them in.

recedite

The chief justice of Belize, however, was sceptical to the point of open contempt for Ireland’s standing in these matters: “I must be cautious, this is a case from Ireland [and] we all know the position of Ireland on religious issues.” He was entirely unpersuaded by the argument that in schools supported by public funds, religious orthodoxy can take precedence over human rights and international law on non-discrimination....

The Chief Justice of Belize is basically calling us a Banana Republic :pac:
And he's right

SpaceTime

That's the thing though and I think sometimes Irish people have a very rose-tinted glasses view of Ireland because we're here and we think it's all grand.

The perception of Ireland abroad can quite often be that it's a highly conservative, religious backwater with some kind of religious war going on.

A lot of people are aware of stuff like the very recent introduction of divorce, the fact that contraception was banned here was an absolutely mind boggling situation to a lot of continental Europeans who would have been very much aware of that in the 1960s/70s and then you've still got a situation where we've abortion laws that are less liberal than the Vatican City.

The amount of times that I've had to explain that is actually moving toward being relatively liberal and modern to people in France and elsewhere is really quite worrying.

I've had a journalist in France ask me if it was safe to visit Ireland as she'd printed stuff that could be possibly blasphemous.
I've also had people ask me is it safe to visit Ireland if they're gay, or should they be careful about saying certain things.

Our reputation is good in some areas, but a lot of people genuinely do think that we're something like what modern Russia is turning into or the US Bible belt.

expectationlost

SpaceTime wrote: »

That's the thing though and I think sometimes Irish people have a very rose-tinted glasses view of Ireland because we're here and we think it's all grand.

The perception of Ireland abroad can quite often be that it's a highly conservative, religious backwater with some kind of religious war going on.

A lot of people are aware of stuff like the very recent introduction of divorce, the fact that contraception was banned here was an absolutely mind boggling situation to a lot of continental Europeans who would have been very much aware of that in the 1960s/70s and then you've still got a situation where we've abortion laws that are less liberal than the Vatican City.

The amount of times that I've had to explain that is actually moving toward being relatively liberal and modern to people in France and elsewhere is really quite worrying.

I've had a journalist in France ask me if it was safe to visit Ireland as she'd printed stuff that could be possibly blasphemous.
I've also had people ask me is it safe to visit Ireland if they're gay, or should they be careful about saying certain things.

Our reputation is good in some areas, but a lot of people genuinely do think that we're something like what modern Russia is turning into or the US Bible belt.

and then you tell them about our schools and hospitals

I Heart Internet

expectationlost wrote: »

Parents march 
in protest at plan 
to close school http://www.herald.ie/news/parents-march-in-protest-at-plan-to-close-school-30377732.html

Parents and teachers fight to keep ‘the best school in Ballyfermot’ open
http://www.thejournal.ie/protest-school-ballyfermot-1524324-Jun2014/

they say it is about the number of students to be put into the fewer schools... don't know if a secular school would be opened on grounds of closed school certainly not all the grounds

This is just a glimpse of the unrest that closing schools and changing school ethos is going to resut in - in many cases.

The vast majority of people have great fondness and attachment to their "local" school.
Most of them (not all) are happy with that school's current ethos.

Tell them about change and they are going to kick up a fuss and dig their heels in (if both things are possible at the same time).

I'm not saying this isn't a reason for change, but people should expect much, much more of this.

Banbh

I wouldn't be put off by that little fuss. I remember when equal pay for women was introduced. Now that was a fuss. Also, do you recall the hoops we had to jump through to get contraception?

We may be years behind other Europeans in social matters but things are changing.

SpaceTime

You can't make an omelette with out breaking a few eggs and you can't build an inclusive, socially cohesive public school system without angering the existing private system that's become used to living off public funds.

It requires a backbone, something rarely seen in the Oireachtas!

expectationlost

SpaceTime wrote: »

You can't make an omelette with out breaking a few eggs and you can't build an inclusive, socially cohesive public school system without angering the existing private system that's become used to living off public funds.

It requires a backbone, something rarely seen in the Oireachtas!

its the users who seems to angry at mo not the provider

recedite

This particular school in Ballyfermot that is closing, it is absolutely nothing to do with its divestment or with is "secularisation". That whole area has matured, the demographic of the area has aged, and there are less kids around. That school was ravaged by a notorious paedophile priest in the not-so-distant past. There are also other schools with alternative patrons around now. The site, the land and the GAA pitches are very valuable commercially will be sold by the religious order for a fortune. So there are numerous reasons for its closure. And of course if there is a smaller number of parents still using it now compared to in its heydey, then it will be less crowded and more exclusive than it used to be. So obviously they don't want it to be sold while they are still using it. If the religious order had decided to donate the school and its GAA pitches to ET or some other patron, so that it would continue to exist as a school, would these parents still be complaining? We will never know, because the owners are going to sell it for development land, then take the money and run.

expectationlost

recedite wrote: »

This particular school in Ballyfermot that is closing, it is absolutely nothing to do with its divestment or with is "secularisation". That whole area has matured, the demographic of the area has aged, and there are less kids around. That school was ravaged by a notorious paedophile priest in the not-so-distant past. There are also other schools with alternative patrons around now. The site, the land and the GAA pitches are very valuable commercially will be sold by the religious order for a fortune. So there are numerous reasons for its closure. And of course if there is a smaller number of parents still using it now compared to in its heydey, then it will be less crowded and more exclusive than it used to be. So obviously they don't want it to be sold while they are still using it. If the religious order had decided to donate the school and its GAA pitches to ET or some other patron, so that it would continue to exist as a school, would these parents still be complaining? We will never know, because the owners are going to sell it for development land, then take the money and run.

it doesn't and it does they are downsizing anyway so it could be useful for us, for the dept, these were the kind of areas the dept of ed and the dublin diocese was choosing anyway, areas that were maturing and they wanted to get rid of schools, you could dig into the stats here to prove that point and Im sure the dept of ed has more stats http://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Statistics/Data-on-Individual-Schools/Data-on-Individual-Schools.html

expectationlost

more detail in this article http://www.gazettegroup.com/news/leave-school-alone/

They are already using prefabs to accommodate them all already [on the Dominican site] and now want to add another 300 pupils.”

vs

In a statement, the archdiocese said it had been consulting stakeholders in education in Ballyfermot concerning the four schools since 2008 and that “falling pupil numbers” meant it was “not sustainable” to have so many schools in separate buildings.

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

The site, the land and the GAA pitches are very valuable commercially will be sold by the religious order for a fortune. <...> the owners are going to sell it for development land, then take the money and run.

Is there any evidence for this, or is it speculation?
As far as I know the Dominican Order does not have any obligations under the child abuse redress bill, as they paid all the money they were supposed to, but De La Salle only offered a portion of what was due, so I would expect the State to have 'an interest' in the sale, and to seek to recoup some of what is owed? From a Church point of view it would appear that divesting De La Salle is riskier than divesting the Dominicans in this case.

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

so I would expect the State to have 'an interest' in the sale

It is doubtful that the political will exists to extract any more money from them. As far as I can see, payments by religious orders seem to be optional, and the State via (Michael Woods) has agreed an indemnity, but there is a lack of transparency about the whole thing.
I am not sure whether individual religious orders should be considered to have completely separate individual liabilities. Their accounts are separated, but we know that ultimately they are all under the control of the Vatican.

expectationlost

Update on Forum on Patronage and Pluralism in Primary Sector published by Minister Quinn - See more at: http://education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2014-Press-Releases/PR14-07-01.html#sthash.AG4vHEhL.dpuf
http://education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2014-Press-Releases/PR14-07-01.html

Quinn “there is no one size fits all approach to ensuring all schools are inclusive and welcoming yes there is its called secularism, meanwhile still 90% catholic domaination

The banning of religious artefacts is not suggested. Rather, other artefacts from different traditions could also be displayed in a school as part of a process of celebrating diversity and education about other belief systems. - See more at: http://education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2014-Press-Releases/PR14-07-01.html#sthash.AG4vHEhL.dpuf

not less religion but more religion is the solution

Banbh

Minister Quinn should be gone within a week. Will the new man or woman in the job continue to do nothing on patronage? Probably.

If they allow symbols for other beliefs, what would symbolise secularism?
How about a blank blackboard and some chalk?

Hotblack Desiato

We can expect policy to be stupid and hypocritical as long as the electorate continue to demand it. Irish politics is never about leadership that's for sure.

magicbastarder

expectationlost wrote: »

The banning of religious artefacts is not suggested. Rather, other artefacts from different traditions could also be displayed in a school as part of a process of celebrating diversity and education about other belief systems.

an irish solution to an irish problem?
maybe the colander will make it on to the wall.

Cabaal

magicbastarder wrote: »

maybe the colander will make it on to the wall.

Why not?
Its about as legit as any other faith

magicbastarder

Banbh wrote: »

Minister Quinn should be gone within a week. Will the new man or woman in the job continue to do nothing on patronage? Probably.

lack of progress does not necessarily imply imcompetence, to be fair. the church is in a powerful position in that they own the schools.

magicbastarder

he's gone anyway.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/education-minister-ruairi-quinn-to-resign-as-cabinet-minister-30401522.html

I Heart Internet

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0702/627983-ruairi-quinn-labour-party/

He's walking off into the sunset before being wheeled off.

I Heart Internet

FYI:

https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2014-Press-Releases/PR14-07-01.html

01 July, 2014 - Update on Forum on Patronage and Pluralism in Primary Sector published by Minister Quinn

SpaceTime

The primary and secondary education system is one of those unreformable, sacred cows.

I have a feeling that if you were go get into a time machine and go to say 2044, you'd still have the same lack of public schools, religions domination of the system and the state wringing its hands and claiming it has nothing to do with any of it.

Zamboni

Man, some people are ungrateful.

This guy drew a historic line in the sand and created a process going forward for establishing a new school based on demographics and school patronage based on parental demand.
http://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Information/Establishing-a-New-School/

Your expectations of a drastic transfer of Catholic schools to non-denominational schools would have caused almighty uproar and are simply too simplistic and unrealistic.

You can't win with some people.
I understand the internet warrior keyboard war cry for an entirely secular state but wake up to the real world.
Quinn has done what he could with what he had.
Wait for the next Fine Gael Catholic Minister for Education who won't give a flying fvck about secularism.

Cabaal

I gota say I see him as one of the most progressive education ministers we've had when it came to sorting out the bias that goes on in our schools, I'll be very sorry to see him leave.

SpaceTime

It's a little bit like trying to reform the health system. Anytime anyone tries, all the vested interests (many of whom have very convincing arguments) all jump out.