School patronage

Cabaal

SpaceTime wrote: »

It's a little bit like trying to reform the health system. Anytime anyone tries, all the vested interests (many of whom have very convincing arguments) all jump out.

and then many of the same people complain when nothing progresses or improves

:rolleyes:

Cabaal

says it all really, Ruairi Quinn’s resignation interrupted by RTÉ’s call to prayer.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/07/02/and-we-go-live-now-to-some-bells/

Hold on there, historical milestone in Irish politics: it's time for -- The Angelus. #TodaySOR #RuairiQuinn

Not the first time either...taken from May 2014

Hold your horses there, democracy. RTÉ must pause now for the Angelus. #EP14 #LE14

SpaceTime

Cabaal wrote: »

and then many of the same people complain when nothing progresses or improves

:rolleyes:

There's lot of focusing on protection of one's own patch and no focus on the bigger picture.

I Heart Internet

Cabaal wrote: »

says it all really, Ruairi Quinn’s resignation interrupted by RTÉ’s call to prayer.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/07/02/and-we-go-live-now-to-some-bells/

I get your point but think it's funny that the tweeter considered Minister Quinn's resignation a "historical milestone".

Cabaal

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I get your point but think it's funny that the tweeter considered Minister Quinn's resignation a "historical milestone".

Everyone has different views on stuff in fairness,
Sure some people see broad as sacred :P
:pac:

equivariant

Zamboni wrote: »

Man, some people are ungrateful.

This guy drew a historic line in the sand and created a process going forward for establishing a new school based on demographics and school patronage based on parental demand.
http://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Information/Establishing-a-New-School/

Your expectations of a drastic transfer of Catholic schools to non-denominational schools would have caused almighty uproar and are simply too simplistic and unrealistic.

You can't win with some people.
I understand the internet warrior keyboard war cry for an entirely secular state but wake up to the real world.
Quinn has done what he could with what he had.
Wait for the next Fine Gael Catholic Minister for Education who won't give a flying fvck about secularism.

Absolutely agree. I think that people on this forum will be looking back fondly on RQ in a years time - he is the only minister for education that I can remember in my lifetime who made any attempt to break the religious stranglehold on education. Expecting him to reverse decades of religious empire building in a few months was completely unrealistic but at least it was clear that he understood that there is a huge problem with religious control of education and he really tried to do something to make things a little bit better. My first child is about to enter the primary school system and I think this is a disastrous development. RQ gave me some hope that I wouldn't have to fight RCC brainwashing on my own.

Think back if you will to the days of Coughlan, O'Keeffe and Hanafin - it is likely that we will have to deal with that kind of minister again. We are likely to end up with some Fine Gael donkey who will live in fear of the church and the teachers' unions and our children will suffer as a result.

expectationlost

Zamboni wrote: »

Man, some people are ungrateful.

This guy drew a historic line in the sand and created a process going forward for establishing a new school based on demographics and school patronage based on parental demand.
http://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Information/Establishing-a-New-School/

Your expectations of a drastic transfer of Catholic schools to non-denominational schools would have caused almighty uproar and are simply too simplistic and unrealistic.

You can't win with some people.
I understand the internet warrior keyboard war cry for an entirely secular state but wake up to the real world.
Quinn has done what he could with what he had.
Wait for the next Fine Gael Catholic Minister for Education who won't give a flying fvck about secularism.

he didn't draw in a line in sand, still refusing to admit that the system is grossly unfair to nonbelievers, to the degree of being against internatinal human rights laws, still largely depending on the church or other private organisations to give us schools

expectationlost

equivariant wrote: »

Absolutely agree. I think that people on this forum will be looking back fondly on RQ in a years time - he is the only minister for education that I can remember in my lifetime who made any attempt to break the religious stranglehold on education. Expecting him to reverse decades of religious empire building in a few months was completely unrealistic but at least it was clear that he understood that there is a huge problem with religious control of education and he really tried to do something to make things a little bit better. My first child is about to enter the primary school system and I think this is a disastrous development. RQ gave me some hope that I wouldn't have to fight RCC brainwashing on my own.

you missed the last two pages, he endorsed the need for teachers to teach religion (as faith) to get a job.

and admitted his attempt to get schools off church didn't work

43 areas were surveyed following the Forum Report; in 28 areas sufficient demand for a greater choice of patronage was identified. Five multi-dom schools to be opened http://education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2014-Press-Releases/PR14-07-01.html#sthash.qzX2E0JX.dpuf

Penn

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I get your point but think it's funny that the tweeter considered Minister Quinn's resignation a "historical milestone".

It's more a flippant exaggeration to make a valid point rather than something which should be taken seriously. The lie to tell the greater truth.

Brian Shanahan

magicbastarder wrote: »

lack of progress does not necessarily imply imcompetence, to be fair. the church is in a powerful position in that they own the schools.

Of course it does in this case, Ruari Quinn is simply wringing his hands and endlessly repeating the following mantra: "Should we do something? We should do something!" without making a single iota of an effort to actually go out and do something positive.

And now it seems that he is even reversing the direction of his hand-wringing and saying that secular education is worse than religious indoctrination!

A Wave

expectationlost wrote: »

Update on Forum on Patronage and Pluralism in Primary Sector published by Minister Quinn - See more at: <can't post urls>

Quinn “there is no one size fits all approach to ensuring all schools are inclusive and welcoming yes there is its called secularism, meanwhile still 90% catholic domaination

The banning of religious artefacts is not suggested. Rather, other artefacts from different traditions could also be displayed in a school as part of a process of celebrating diversity and education about other belief systems. - See more at: <can't post urls>

not less religion but more religion is the solution

Interesting about artefacts/symbolism from different traditions... The Irish Times chose to illustrate their piece on this today - "Crucifixes in schools should be joined by other religious artefacts" - with a clear shot of a severed hand sculpture at Marlborough Street. How long is that there?

It looks like it's being held out for the teacher to whack it (in my mind with the hardwood strips they used to pull of the top of the cófras.) There was a different tradition in schools, alright...

Zamboni

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Of course it does in this case, Ruari Quinn is simply wringing his hands and endlessly repeating the following mantra: "Should we do something? We should do something!" without making a single iota of an effort to actually go out and do something positive.

Wow. Just wow.

2011 Ruari Quinn becomes Minister for Education.

He establishes the Forum on Patronage and Pluralism.

The Forum and DoE establish a new process for all new schools to be developed on demographics and type by parental demand.

Forum Report illustrates huge demand for greater patronage choice.

Which leads to Educate Together becoming secondary level patrons and begin opening second level schools

...and Educate Together open multiple new primary schools


Yeah - Fvck all has happened during his term as Minister in 3 YEARS.

Go ask Paul Rowe CEO of Educate Together is Ruari Quinn just says "we should do something
@PaulRoweET

SpaceTime

Changing the education system can't be achieved overnight either. You're looking at a project that could take decades to create a transformed system.

I'm just hoping that he's not replaced by someone who spends their time kissing bishops' rings.

We do actually need a public school system that we can all access on an equal basis.

There's a tendency here to expect impossible levels of change.

There are people who like the status quo who are happy to see him go. There are others who are blaming him on cuts. Newsflash: he doesn't set the budget allocation to education and the cuts are down to lack of state money, not ideology. You can thank mostly FF for that one. The education minister is left with a tight budget one way or the other. Quinn did actually seem to keep as much available as he could possibly get. He's a former finance minister and a tough negotiator.

Then you've people on here who seem to think that he could just click his fingers and secularise the school system.

He started a process and people are thinking and change will slowly (glacially) happen.

I wouldn't really expect anything too dramatic though.

His departure is quite clearly about Labour internal leadership politics, not about his performance in office.

Cabaal

http://www.irishtimes.com/debate/letters/religious-symbols-in-schools-1.1853041

Sir, – A report on how to advance pluralism in Irish education has said that “Crucifixes in schools should be joined by other religious artefacts” as a way of “celebrating diversity” (“Call for school crucifixes to be joined by artefacts from other religions”, July 2nd). Is now not a good time to just remove religious iconography from schools? That way everyone is included because nobody is left out. Specific religious indoctrination belongs at home and in churches, not in schools.

Apart from that, where does the list of “other artefacts” end? The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or Pastafarians, worship His Noodliness. Can they now rightfully expect to see their artefact, the colander, to appear on school walls too? – Yours, etc,

Sir, – The proposal to include other religious symbols in schools is a fudge. While there is nothing wrong with learning about other religions and cultures, tokenism is not the solution. There should no be religious symbols in schools, other than those that individuals choose to wear themselves.

The Catholic Church just cannot let go of the symbolic power of a crucifix in every school, or indeed every classroom. Although, during my time at St Kevin’s CBS (1980s) in Ballygall Road, the statue of Mary did little to impress church values on me. The class used to play games with it, throwing the duster at it to knock if off its perch and then running to catch it before it hit the ground. Not exactly what the Brothers had in mind.

The Catholic Church should just remove its symbols from our schools and not give students extra symbols for target practice. – Yours, etc,

Sir, – The 40 pages of the progress report on the Forum on Patronage and Pluralism in the Primary Sector missed a key point. Jesus of Nazareth left his followers a sign for all to “know that you are my disciples” (John 13:35) and it wasn’t an artefact. It was that they “love one another”. – Yours, etc,

So basically all three letters don't want crosses etc

equivariant

expectationlost wrote: »

you missed the last two pages, he endorsed the need for teachers to teach religion (as faith) to get a job.

That is nonsense - he never endorsed that need. He was questioned on the the matter of the CRS and stated the fact that teachers wanting to maximise their job prospects should obtain it. How is that an endorsement of a need?

Analogy - If someone states the fact that people must emigrate to find work, is that automatically an endorsement of that situation??

and admitted his attempt to get schools off church didn't work

That is just being honest - I don't think he should be condemned for that. We have enough politicians who will try to claim all sorts of spurious achievements

Absolam

equivariant wrote: »

Analogy - If someone states the fact that people must emigrate to find work, is that automatically an endorsement of that situation??

I seem to recall politicians being vilified for doing just that. The Irish public are a contrary bunch.

expectationlost

New teaching institute sparks religious row Dr Ciaran O Coigligh of the Department of Irish described the proposed institute as "a takeover" by secular DCU.

However, the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin, Dr Diarmuid Martin, described Dr O Coigligh's accusations as "unfair".


"To me, this is a model way in which space is found for the religious traditions of Ireland to flourish and find their place in a broad, secularised society," he said.
- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/new-teaching-institute-sparks-religious-row-30393976.html#sthash.9g35CslD.dpuf

that he's upset doesn't mean we shouldnt be worried.

Fifteen more Catholic primaries to be closed or amalgamated - See more at: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/fifteen-more-catholic-primaries-to-be-closed-or-amalgamated-30385719.html#sthash.8pIyrNkb.dpuf

could result in the establishment of nine new schools , Anne McDonagh, director of education for the Archdiocese of Dublin told an Oireachtas committee.

expectationlost

equivariant wrote: »

That is nonsense - he never endorsed that need. He was questioned on the the matter of the CRS and stated the fact that teachers wanting to maximise their job prospects should obtain it. How is that an endorsement of a need?

Analogy - If someone states the fact that people must emigrate to find work, is that automatically an endorsement of that situation??

That is just being honest - I don't think he should be condemned for that. We have enough politicians who will try to claim all sorts of spurious achievements

its an endorsement of a problem, you don't think its a problem?

expectationlost

Zamboni wrote: »

Wow. Just wow.

2011 Ruari Quinn becomes Minister for Education.

He establishes the Forum on Patronage and Pluralism.

The Forum and DoE establish a new process for all new schools to be developed on demographics and type by parental demand.

Forum Report illustrates huge demand for greater patronage choice.

Which leads to Educate Together becoming secondary level patrons and begin opening second level schools

...and Educate Together open multiple new primary schools


Yeah - Fvck all has happened during his term as Minister in 3 YEARS.

Go ask Paul Rowe CEO of Educate Together is Ruari Quinn just says "we should do something
@PaulRoweET

you have to think beyond educate together, beyond another private provider, as they said themselves 90% primary schools catholic, he didn't tackle this.

he didn't He establishes the Forum on Patronage and Pluralism. Mary Hanafin did.

parental demand is bull****

the survey was a failure by anyone standards in that hardly anyone knew about it

expectationlost

guess who they are suggesting for education minister sherlock jnr!

robindch

A guy from Mater Dei explains why religious education is important - it helps people "embrace difference" and at senior level, encourages the student to be a "critical questioner" no less.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/why-religious-education-has-an-important-role-to-play-in-our-society-1.1853105

Gareth Byrne wrote:

The current critique of denominational education, and of denominational religious education in particular, risks undermining the place of this core subject in all schools, just at a moment when deeper reflection on religion, belief, spirituality and ethics could contribute enormously to the emergence of a society that seeks to embrace difference and is comfortable to celebrate the presence of a variety of religious and other belief systems. This, of course, means respecting the beliefs of those of the majority religious tradition, too, and seeking to contribute to the religious and spiritual literacy of all young people and of adults.

Some recent commentary appears to indicate a lack of knowledge of, or perhaps interest in, the transformation of religious education (RE) after the renewal of the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s and since. It has changed from a wholly content-focused subject to a student-focused one; from learning off questions and answers to discussion of personal experience and response; and from difference being defined denominationally within the Christian tradition, to an acknowledgment of the variety of people in Irish society today and respect for the diversity of their religions and beliefs. RE in schools contributes not only to the personal reflection and development of young people, but should also heighten respect for the beliefs of the other and help build a diverse but cohesive society. To neglect RE is to neglect the future.

The suggestion that time might be taken from RE in order to increase the focus on literacy, numeracy, science or IT is educationally inappropriate. The debate in the 1990s, during the preparation of the Education Act, 1998, emphasised in the first instance the importance of preparing young people for the jobs market and for strengthening the nation’s economy. Reflection on this important but limited understanding of the person led to confirmation of the need for a holistic approach to education that values and seeks to educate the whole person “. . . for personal and home life, for working life, for living in the community and for leisure” (National Council for Curriculum and Assessment: general definition of education).

RE contributes significantly, indeed uniquely, to the education of the whole person. Defined in a way that is appropriate for the young person’s age and stage of development, good RE honours the freedom of conscience of the young person while revering their family faith and/or belief traditions and expectations. This requires a high level of training among teachers. At primary level, RE provides a place in the younger child’s day to reflect on belonging and being cherished within a community of religious faith or other belief system.

For example, in a Catholic primary school, RE will focus for Catholic pupils on their experience of growing into their own faith community and on respect for others (See Irish Episcopal Conference, Share the Good News). Contrary to recent suggestions, pupils do not participate in faith formation in schools in Ireland in any faith tradition if their parents/guardians are not content. An updated curriculum is being finalised for religious education and formation in Catholic primary schools and a variety of other such programmes are now being provided for too. At Junior Certificate level, RE has become one of the most popular subjects for State examination. For teenagers of all religions and none, whether taking it as an examination subject or not, RE creates a safe space to test one’s own identity, and reflect with others in a respectful manner on the search for meaning and values. At senior cycle level the emphasis is on becoming a “critical questioner and reflective searcher”.

Over a period of time, RE contributes enormously to the development of the young person’s literacy across a wide range of texts and resources and of challenges to the human psyche. The ability to express the big questions in words, story, art, song, ritual and prayer, for example, has an impact at a whole series of levels on the developing knowledge, understanding, skills and attitudes of the young. They are confronted not only cognitively but affectively and through activity- based approaches, encouraging them to become actors in the world, particularly in support of those in most need.

The Irish Centre for Religious Education researches and promotes good practice in religious education at primary, secondary and higher levels. Doctoral students along with a network of RE lecturers, North and South, are now actively engaged in exploring appropriate models of RE, not only for schools but also at home, in faith communities and as a contribution to the wellbeing of society. RE in schools is valued by individuals and communities who understand its contribution. Reasonably, it can be expected that in the future there will be different emphases placed within RE provided in different kinds of schools. RE should, however, be a core subject for all pupils, appropriately, in all schools.

Dr Gareth Byrne is head of religious education at Mater Dei Institute of Education, Dublin City University, and co- ordinator of the Irish Centre for Religious Education. He is the editor with Patricia Kieran of Toward Mutual Ground: Plurality, Religious Education and Diversity in Irish Schools (Dublin: Columba, 2013).

Cabaal

robindch wrote: »

A guy from Mater Dei explains why religious education is important - it helps people "embrace difference"

Thats amazing

By that logic Ireland should be one of the most accepting country's in the world of other cultures, races and LGBT

The reality is...well different and not very accepting

Though, I suppose we did give alot of money to the "black baby's" for decades, of course that was fine when they were in another country but we as a country weren't big fans of them when they started coming to Ireland.

Anyway, my experience with very very religious people is they are more often the not the most racist and homophobic people i've met in my life.

Brian Shanahan

Zamboni wrote: »

Wow. Just wow.

No not wow, just an accurate appraisal of what he has done, and worse yet, what he has tried to do.

Before we had a situation that in order to be a patron of a school one had to have a religious ethos, that is still the case. The minister did sweet fanny adams to change that, apart from a few hand wringy comments to the media.

Before we had a situation where the rcc "owned" 96% of primary schools, and dictated to the state a large part of the curriculum, in contravention of the constitution. The minister did sweet fanny adams to change that, apart from a few hand wringy comments to the media.

Before we had a situation where schools were exempt from equality law, on grounds of religious ethos, despite it being contrary to our obligations under EU and UN membership. The minister did sweet fanny adams to change that, apart from a few hand wringy comments to the media.

He has done nothing only make a few slightly "progressive" noises to his friends in the newspapers, and then drop them like a stone the first time a bishop started looking cross-eyed at him. But then again he never did anything of use at any stage of his ministerial career from the '80's on, so why were we expecting him to do his duty to the nation now?

Brian Shanahan

So it seems Col. Ask-my-arse has decided to wade in on this issue, calling the drive for secular education pandering to multiculturalism (well according to the leader head on the front page, I refuse as a matter of preserving my sanity to read and of the vicious bile he substitutes for journalism), and saying we need to keep the schools catholic.

First of all, quite a turn around for such a committed pro-unionist coi supporter. Second secular education is by its very nature non multicultural, because everybody is taught to same standard, a general education where religion is only part of a wider cultural and history syllabus.

Has anybody actually read the article, and could they share any of Mr. Myers' pearls* of idiocy.

*Pearl being the appropriate term here, because they are formed to coat grit and other irritants which get inside the shells of the molluscs.

recedite

Zamboni wrote: »

Man, some people are ungrateful.
This guy drew a historic line in the sand and created a process going forward for establishing a new school based on demographics and school patronage based on parental demand.

This only applies to new schools, in areas where the population is growing.
The principle now being applied is that the state will build a new school, and then fund it thereafter, but it will hand over the management of the school to whoever gets the most votes. Even if that happens to be a religious cult which openly flouts international human rights in terms of discrimination in the admissions policy and employment policy.

OK call me ungrateful, but that's still a crock of $hit.

Quinn's message for all existing schools; As you were.
Quinn's message for trainee teachers; learn how to indoctrinate kids into your religion if you want a decent chance of getting a job, and if you haven't got a religion, learn how to fake it, and then fake the lifestyle too so your private life matches the public* ethos of the school patron.

Anyway, he has his Ministerial pension now to add to his Dail pension, so what does he care.

If a minister for jobs and industry advised school leavers to emigrate for work, there would be uproar.
Faking a religion and emigration are the "workarounds" that people have come up with because the politicians haven't done their jobs properly. When a politician then speaks about the workaround as if he's dispensing some good advice to people, they are right to get angry.

*do what they say, not what they do.

Zamboni

recedite wrote: »

This only applies to new schools, in areas where the population is growing.
The principle now being applied is that the state will build a new school, and then fund it thereafter, but it will hand over the management of the school to whoever gets the most votes. Even if that happens to be a religious cult which openly flouts international human rights in terms of discrimination in the admissions policy and employment policy.

OK call me ungrateful, but that's still a crock of $hit.

Quinn's message for all existing schools; As you were.
Quinn's message for trainee teachers; learn how to indoctrinate kids into your religion if you want a decent chance of getting a job, and if you haven't got a religion, learn how to fake it, and then fake the lifestyle too so your private life matches the public* ethos of the school patron.

Anyway, he has his Ministerial pension now to add to his Dail pension, so what does he care.

If a minister for jobs and industry advised school leavers to emigrate for work, there would be uproar.
Faking a religion and emigration are the "workarounds" that people have come up with because the politicians haven't done their jobs properly. When a politician then speaks about the workaround as if he's dispensing some good advice to people, they are right to get angry.

*do what they say, not what they do.

Have you campaigned for the change of the relevant equality legislation to prevent discrimination in faith schools admissions policies?
Have you campaigned, as a parent, for more non-catholic school places?
Have you ever lived 20metres from a massive primary school knowing that your offspring is not welcome there despite you being Irish born and lifelong taxpayer?
Have you written to hundreds of public representatives and harassed county councils?

Or is it just easy demanding an all or nothing secular state on the internet?

What exactly was he supposed to do with the already existing 90% catholic schools?
Just reclaim all the land from the church, remove all the parish priests from patronage, ignore the masses of quite happy catholic parents and hand over the keys to who?

This forum is turning into a soapbox for dreamers.

recedite

I have written to the Department of Education and TDs at various times over these issues, but to no avail. Yes, my kids have been refused places at state funded schools, with overt legalised religious discrimination given as the reason. Thankfully there are more school choices around nowadays, but that is due to the level of parental demand, not to the actions of any minister.

I Heart Internet

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

So it seems Col. Ask-my-arse has decided to wade in on this issue, calling the drive for secular education pandering to multiculturalism (well according to the leader head on the front page, I refuse as a matter of preserving my sanity to read and of the vicious bile he substitutes for journalism), and saying we need to keep the schools catholic.

Dimissing something without reading it.

That's the spirit.

Cabaal

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Dimissing something without reading it.

That's the spirit.

As opposed to accepting something without reading it?

Something likely 99.5% of so called Catholics are guilty of in Ireland

I Heart Internet

Cabaal wrote: »

As opposed to accepting something without reading it?

Something likely 99.5% of so called Catholics are guilty of in Ireland

No, I recommed he read it and then form an opinion on it, then discuss it as he pleases.