School patronage

PopePalpatine

You don't know how painfully prickish Myers is.

expectationlost

Zamboni wrote: »

Have you campaigned for the change of the relevant equality legislation to prevent discrimination in faith schools admissions policies?
Have you campaigned, as a parent, for more non-catholic school places?
Have you ever lived 20metres from a massive primary school knowing that your offspring is not welcome there despite you being Irish born and lifelong taxpayer?
Have you written to hundreds of public representatives and harassed county councils?

Or is it just easy demanding an all or nothing secular state on the internet?

What exactly was he supposed to do with the already existing 90% catholic schools?
Just reclaim all the land from the church, remove all the parish priests from patronage, ignore the masses of quite happy catholic parents and hand over the keys to who?

This forum is turning into a soapbox for dreamers.

we don't want all or nothing but
what we want wasfor him to actually tackle the issue of 90% domination and be bit more closer to the all then to the nothing.

Cabaal

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No, I recommed he read it and then form an opinion on it, then discuss it as he pleases.

But you're OK with children and parents accepting the Catholic faith without question even though they've never read the Bible and as such can't form they're own opinion of it.

expectationlost

Third-level Teaching Post Available

7 Jul 2014

Posted in Third-level Teaching Post Available

Educate Together is looking for a lecturer or lecturers to present on Multi-denominational Religious Education at a third-level institution in the Limerick area. There are up to 80 hours teaching per semester available.

If you are interested in teacher education and have a good knowledge of the Learn Together curriculum and a Masters level qualification, please send your CV, including the names of two referees

http://www.educatetogether.ie/media/national-news/third-level-lecturer

interesting, wonder who pays for the post

Zamboni

Could have been worse folks.
We got Jan O'Sullivan Labour TD as Minister for Education.
She is CoI but I found this quote below from her in an interview from around five years ago which may give hope
When she was Mayor of Limerick she was barred from opening two catholic schools!

I would encourage everyone here to let her know how you feel about education in Ireland
jan.osullivan@oireachtas.ie

When you grow up in a minority religion in any country, you are very aware of people assuming that everyone is Catholic. With things like First Communion, there is an assumption it affects everybody's life, when it does not. Maybe for that reason I am more conscious of minorities and the needs of them," she says.

expectationlost

Zamboni wrote: »

Could have been worse folks.
We got Jan O'Sullivan Labour TD as Minister for Education.
She is CoI but I found this quote below from her in an interview from around five years ago which may give hope
When she was Mayor of Limerick she was barred from opening two catholic schools!

I would encourage everyone here to let her know how you feel about education in Ireland
jan.osullivan@oireachtas.ie

yes but the questions is does she recognise atheists as a kind of minority, or will it just be more ecumenicalism between religions.

recedite

I see she is married to a RC. A lot of the problems caused by religion in this country came about by considering religious doctrine to be more important than actual people.
Whether in protecting the church from child abuse scandal, the Savita case, or the years of sectarian violence. The one thing you can definitely say about people in a "mixed marriage" is that they won't sacrifice love or compassion for religious doctrine. Which has to be a good thing.

Banbh

If she does nothing, which is a strong possibility, she will still be on a par with her predecessors.

lazygal

She's still working in the same opus dei riddled department so I'm not getting my hopes up.

Brian Shanahan

Banbh wrote: »

If she does nothing, which is a strong possibility, she will still be on a par with her predecessors.

It is not simply a possibility but a cast iron guarantee. She's well known in Limerick as the one politician who won't do anything, even for those who are known as her strong supporters.

SpaceTime

lazygal wrote: »

She's still working in the same opus dei riddled department so I'm not getting my hopes up.

I think it's not just an Opus Dei thing. You have to remember that the Irish education system and teaching profession is brought up in a religious environment.

A typical primary teacher's life:

Age 4-12 : Religious Primary School
Age 12-18: Religious Secondary School.
Age 18-23: Religious Teacher Training College.
Age 23-65: Teaching in a Religious School.

Typical secondary teacher:

Age 4-12 : Religious Primary School
Age 12-18: Religious Secondary School.
Age 18-23: Secular University
Age 23-24: PGDE/H.Dip. Ed in Religious Secondary School context.
Age 24-65: Teaching in a Religious School.

Schools are mostly religious institutions, colleges of education with the exception of UCC, NUIG and Hibernian are all religious effectively (including UCD and Trinity).

I would dearly love to see a primary teaching training college being setup in UCC as it's a fully secular university. An all-Irish version in Galway would be fantastic too.

But, you can see that given how the teaching and education profession are trained that trying to make changes towards an open, secular system without a religious ethos isn't likely to be very easy.

Yes Minister is an extremely accurate documentary in many ways! Ruairi Quinn or Jan O'Sullivan get to try and implement policies but they're going to have entire teams of Sir Humphrey and his colleagues trying to ensure that everything remains as is.

Public bodies tend to resist major changes because they're brought up in a system where things are done in a particular way according to a set of rules and protocols. That's why reforming bureaucratic private organisations like banks or public bodies can be extremely difficult.

I think if the education system is going to change, it needs to be driven largely by the teaching profession and the unions tbh.

I cannot see why the Teachers' unions stand idly by while schools do not implement the Equal Status act for example.

lazygal

A commentator yesterday specifically referred to the opus dei elements in education and said in years gone by non Catholic ministers wouldn't have been acceptable in education. Education is a notoriously conservative Catholic department. I don't see that changing quickly no matter what the background of the minister is. Catholics are supposed to be evangelical about their faith. The latest thing is not being afraid to bring your faith into.every aspect of your life, according to the hierarchy.

SpaceTime

lazygal wrote: »

A commentator yesterday specifically referred to the opus dei elements in education and said in years gone by non Catholic ministers wouldn't have been acceptable in education. Education is a notoriously conservative Catholic department. I don't see that changing quickly no matter what the background of the minister is. Catholics are supposed to be evangelical about their faith. The latest thing is not being afraid to bring your faith into.every aspect of your life, according to the hierarchy.

I've a little experience of dealing with the Department and I'm not sure that's really the explanation.
I'm not convinced of the grand conspiracy theory of Opus Dei pulling the levers, but rather that they are just incapable of thinking beyond how the system is at the moment.

Schools = nuns/priests in their heads.
In fact, I think in most Irish people's heads (particularly slightly older generations) they see education and religion as intertwined.

You've also got a situation historically where teachers who towed the line and were closest to the religious tended to be the ones who got promotions to positions of power.

It's like institutional religiosity.

I think they could do with a bit more 'fire and brimstone' from various ministers in various departments though. They're rarely tough enough.

lazygal

I also have experience of dealing with most government departments and education is the most resistant to change. It also directly contradicted policy when setting up VEC primary schools in a move to appease the Catholic church in religious instruction.

SpaceTime

The thing is though, I think we need some ministers with a bit more backbone who are capable of dealing with the job at hand.

If a Dept starts behaving politically the minister should be capable of calling them out on that.

I'm not convinced that the Minister has complete control over health for example either.

lazygal

The unions have a lot to answer for as well in health. Try telling the nursing unions the three day 36 hour week will be changed to a model of staffing levels for different demands and see how much the unions would cooperate.

TheChizler

lazygal wrote: »

Catholics are supposed to be evangelical about their faith. The latest thing is not being afraid to bring your faith into.every aspect of your life, according to the hierarchy.

Recently read my gf's cousin's junior infants Alive-O book, it was all about bringing god into every aspect of life. There was a parent's note at the bottom of one page telling them to blow bubbles with their child, and remind the child how they gave life to the bubbles just as god gave life to them. I nearly got sick (may be slight hyperbole).

lazygal

TheChizler wrote: »

Recently read my gf's cousin's junior infants Alive-O book, it was all about bringing god into every aspect of life. There was a parent's note at the bottom of one page telling them to blow bubbles with their child, and remind the child how they gave life to the bubbles just as god gave life to them. I nearly got sick (may be slight hyperbole).

The Alive O programme is worse than the fire and brimstone approach. I've had teachers tell me how lovely it is and that it's not about God but about making friends and being nice. When I point out its Catholic indoctrination they try to focus on the touchy feely bits and explain that even the Muslim boy in the class does it! Sure why would make such a fuss! Alive O is insidious and designed to be blandly inoffensive as much as possible so the church can wheedle it's way into and remain in the hearts and minds of children.

robindch

lazygal wrote: »

The Alive O [...] I point out its Catholic indoctrination they try to focus on the touchy feely bits and explain that even the Muslim boy in the class does it! Sure why would make such a fuss!

I'm not sure that even catholics would like to hear about "touchy feely" after Pope Frank's latest admission.

Still, we had exactly the same cant in Snowflake's Dun Laoghaire preschool a few years back - she'd arrived back one evening saying she'd learned to do this putting the hands together and being quiet thing, so next morning, I stopped by after dropoff to speak with the principal who kindly explained that she wasn't quite sure where it had come from, but that she'd look into it (turned out to be some kind of yoga). Then me asking about that religious visitation timetable on the wall, response was lots of pious palaver about inclusivity, tolerance, learning other cultures, and anyhow wasn't that priest such a nice guy what with him handing out sweets to the kids, and all the little dears doing their prayers and even the islamic child did too - what could be wrong with that, Mr H?

"Oh, you don't want this for your child? Well, there's nobody else like you in our school, uh, sorry, I mean there's nobody else with your views who has a child in this school".

Luckily, we got a place in a local ET the following year, so we'd a genuine reason to decline the headmistress's rather desperate plea a few weeks later for Snowflake to stay on.

Hotblack Desiato

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/un-asks-how-state-will-protect-non-christian-children-1.1866896

UN asks how State will protect non-Christian children

....He asked Ireland to explain “what would be the fate of children of parents” who are of no religion and are “not offered non-denominational education”.

“Is it true that even under the new draft Bill [on school admissions] children of such families may be discriminated against in admission to denominational schools if they do not fit with its ethos?”

Mr Shany said he would like to see a copy of a draft Bill and said it was welcome some teachers, such as LGBT teachers, would be protected from discrimination in the legislation.

“Please explain how it protects the rights of non-Christian teachers and atheists to gain employment in denominational schools with a religious ethos.”

Responding to the issues raised Layla de Cogan Chin of the Department of Justice, said there was no obstacle to the establishment of non-denominational schools if there is sufficient demand. She said no child had to remain in class for religious instruction.

The committee heard yesterday on the issue from Atheist Ireland.

Disingenuous to say the least, non-denominational schools may not receive state funding, and schools are not obliged to provide any supervision for children opted out of religious instruction, which makes it impossible for most parents.

recedite

Responding to the issues raised Layla de Cogan Chin of the Department of Justice, said there was no obstacle to the establishment of non-denominational schools

My understanding of the situation is that the Dept of Education thought there was possibly a constitutional impediment, and that is why some schools which you might think were "non-denominational" end up being "multi-denominational" instead. The difference being that a multi-denominational school "should" impart some religious morality into the kids, even if its not only the morality from just one particular religion, whereas the non-denom kind would not be under any such obligation.

Article 42

2° The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.

5. In exceptional cases, where the parents for physical or moral reasons fail in their duty towards their children, the State as guardian of the common good, by appropriate means shall endeavour to supply the place of the parents, but always with due regard for the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child.

It kind of depends on your interpretation of the word "moral". Morality is often used in a religious context, and ethics in a secular context.

I'm not sure whether Layla de Cogan Chin of the Department of Justice is actually giving the green light now for the establishment of "non-denominational" schools, or whether this is just the throwaway remark of someone who hasn't really looked into it. Maybe a bit of communication between the Dept of Education and the Dept.of Justice would be in order.

u01nk5

I'm 30. When i have children will i have to baptise them to guarantee getting them into the local school?

expectationlost

The UN yet another platform for the government to be insultingly dismissive, whats the point.

alaimacerc

recedite wrote: »

My understanding of the situation is that the Dept of Education thought there was possibly a constitutional impediment, and that is why some schools which you might think were "non-denominational" end up being "multi-denominational" instead.

What's the nature of the possible constitutional issue? The whole present "denominational" thing seems to largely be an artefact of the Rules for National Schools document, whose legal status seems to be no more than a glorified departmental circular.

robindch

u01nk5 wrote: »

I'm 30. When i have children will i have to baptise them to guarantee getting them into the local school?

I'd recommend that you do. There are certainly some primary schools, perhaps a lot of them, who will push kids without baptism certificates to the back of the queue.

Delirium

Easy to claim faith schools get the best results when they discriminate heavily on the admissions :rolleyes:

London Oratory cherrypicks privileged white pupils, says watchdog

The Roman Catholic state school attended by Nick Clegg's son, which also educated two of Tony Blair's children, uses a complex, faith-based entry system to cherrypick, in effect, a pupil population that is disproportionately privileged and white, according to a damning report by the schools admissions watchdog.

In a ruling described by campaigners as the most robust ever released by the Office of the Schools Adjudicator (OSA), the London Oratory school was found to have broken 105 aspects of the school admissions code over two years: 63 instances involving students entering in September 2013 and 42 connected to this year's cohort.

Among the breaches, the report found, was that the school had a notably lower proportion of pupils from non-white or deprived backgrounds compared not only with its local community, in Fulham, west London, but with many other Catholic state secondary schools in the capital.

The school wrongly set complex religious requirements, such as parents needing to provide original baptism certificates for the child and both parents, and needing to give details that could reveal, for example, whether they were married.

"I do not believe that the school can claim that its ethnic composition is even representative of that of the Catholic children attending schools in the part of London in which it is located," said adjudicator Bryan Slater. He added: "From the evidence I have seen there is good reason to believe that the admission arrangements the school uses have the effect of acting to produce at the very least a degree of social selection."

shruikan2553

SW wrote: »

Easy to claim faith schools get the best results when they discriminate heavily on the admissions :rolleyes:

London Oratory cherrypicks privileged white pupils, says watchdog

Can't say I'm surprised, people are hardly stupid enough to think its God giving them better results.

recedite

alaimacerc wrote: »

What's the nature of the possible constitutional issue?

"A certain minimum moral education" as quoted above.
Some would say an education can't be moral or complete without a "religious values"component. Most likely that was the original thinking anyway, when the document was drawn up between Dev and Archbishop Mc Quaid.

alaimacerc

recedite wrote: »

"A certain minimum moral education" as quoted above.
Some would say an education can't be moral or complete without a "religious values"component. Most likely that was the original thinking anyway, when the document was drawn up between Dev and Archbishop Mc Quaid.

That's different from denominational instruction, surely. Especially as it's specified as a minimum, not as an a la carte "at the whim of the parents". (I know there's separate "due regard" wording.) Apparently monodenominational schools are compatible with the constitution -- and it's an interesting question, because unlike various other carbuncles, they can't be "grandfathered in" to the constitution (as some other provisions that seem expressly contrary to it are supposed to be). So why wouldn't a "monosecular" one be?

It's all moot if there's no political will to try, mind you.

recedite

alaimacerc wrote: »

That's different from denominational instruction, surely.

See this discussion re a 1998 case.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=91276047
Where there are different interpretations possible, supreme court judges tend not to go for the most liberal one. Judges are all appointed by the govt. of their day, so are mostly FF and FG appointed.

alaimacerc wrote: »

So why wouldn't a "monosecular" one be?

No morality, allegedly. (assuming god and religion are the source of morality)