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School patronage
Comments
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http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/call-for-longer-term-view-of-staffing-in-small-schools-284989.html that tallaght school doesn't even have a building yet0
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Call me skeptical, but somehow I don't think that was their proposal?
Ah, Absolam. Where would we be without you, the one-person Paraphrase and Hyperbole Garda Unit. (In much shorter and to-the-point threads, I suspect is the short answer.)
I'd say the comparison is fairly flattering, in that shamanism (or animism more broadly) has a much stronger phenomenological basis as a system of spirituality than this more run-of-the-mill liturgical nonsense. And other than that... splitting connotations much?0 -
If a school is to be non/multi denominational, removing elements offensive to some can't be enough, we must rid ourselves of all of offensive elements?
There's your problem. </Mythbusters> The rest of it, like most Onion articles, was just a needlessly extended riff on the same premise -- a clearly faulty one, in this case. Or as you yourself might say when doing your usual bit, "making stuff up".0 -
It says that the new schools established recently have been "all multi-denominational or non-denominational". They probably mean ET by this, but in fact there is no non-denominational patron as yet.
Having said that, I don't think the Rules have so much standing as even a ministerial order, much less any obstacle that would require primary legislation -- much less constitutional change. So, what's keeping us? Oh yeah. Lack of any political will, and massive feet-dragging and obstructionism by the denominations in question. Silly me.These type of schools can claim to be both "catholic" and "multi-denominational" which makes them quite appealing to many. The reason for this is they don't allow religious discrimination in their admissions policy (which to be fair to them is a big improvement on the traditional "denominational" school)
As to second-guessing their motivations for this move, I think I'll largely pass. (Those school were just resting in our off-the-books account?)0 -
alaimacerc wrote: »Ah, Absolam. Where would we be without you, the one-person Paraphrase and Hyperbole Garda Unit. (In much shorter and to-the-point threads, I suspect is the short answer.)alaimacerc wrote: »I'd say the comparison is fairly flattering, in that shamanism (or animism more broadly) has a much stronger phenomenological basis as a system of spirituality than this more run-of-the-mill liturgical nonsense. And other than that... splitting connotations much?alaimacerc wrote: »There's your problem. </Mythbusters>alaimacerc wrote: »The rest of it, like most Onion articles, was just a needlessly extended riff on the same premise -- a clearly faulty one, in this case. Or as you yourself might say when doing your usual bit, "making stuff up".0
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I'm sensing some antagonism towards ETB here, but I have to wonder, how bad can they be if you have to resort to making stuff up in order to have a go at them?
If you don't believe me, read their document on "patronage and pluralism"
If foreigners are present in the school, the following applies;2.2.2.1 wrote:...provide denominational religious education to all students in separate belief groups and grant parity of esteem to all belief systems and cultures.
If no foreigners, the default patronage position is "Catholic/Irish"1.3.3. wrote:When it comes to the celebration of feasts in schools, we celebrate Catholic/Irish feasts. To cater to diversity multi belief schools should celebrate the principal feasts of all groups in the school and display icons relevant to all belief groups in the school.
Celebrations at the beginning and end of school years should include religious leaders from all belief systems represented in the school.
As we all know, if the State was to provide direct education through setting up its own schools, the schools would have to pander to all religions equally, or else pander to none. Secularists think the the State should pander to none.
VEC/ETB thinks it can pander to all, by segregating the pupils during religious instruction classes;1.1.3. wrote:Parental choice is not necessarily about choosing between denominational and non-denominational patronage. A State patronage, through an agent such as a VEC, can deliver primary education that meets the needs of all families. This would not require families to choose between denominational and non denominational education and avoid unnecessary division in communities.
In the VEC/ETB vision, there is absolutely no problem with religious indoctrination in State schools, or with religious chaplains being brought into the schools and paid for by the State;1.1.13. wrote:The school would provide ‘faith formation’ for children of all beliefs within the curriculum. While challenging, given the work already underway in community national schools, this challenge can be met. This work should be undertaken by appropriately trained personnel. For minority religions, it should be possible to support this work using web-based technology
In the interests of equality, atheists and agnostics would be taught some decent "morality" in their own special group;1.1.14. wrote:Students from families with no particular religious affiliation would be provided with a module on moral development when other students are participating in denominational religious education.
BTW it is worth noting that ETB (formerly Vocation Educational Committee) is not "The State". They are a group of people appointed by, or connected to the county councils in some way. The exact mechanics of it I am not sure about, but they are not directly elected by the citizens in the same way TDs and county councillors are.
In general the VEC secondary schools seem to work quite well, which is largely down to the fact that the school principal of each school is pretty much in charge of their own school.
I don't think much of the overall committee though, or their current vision for multi-segregation in primary schools. Its not to my taste at all.0 -
It has always been in the VEC/ETB proposal for their vision of new primary schools that religious instruction would be imposed on/provided to pupils in different groups segregated according to religion.
In fact what they do say is "all students should have their belief system respected and supported by the schools they attend", which would seem to be diametrically opposed to imposing religious instruction?If foreigners are present in the school, the following applies;"Originally Posted by 2.2.2.1 ...provide denominational religious education to all students in separate belief groups and grant parity of esteem to all belief systems and cultures."
"Where changes of patronage are to be advanced, what practicalities need to be considered?
What, if any, are the implications for:
Parental choice
Parents would no longer feel pressurised to choose between different schools because the needs of all families would be met under the one roof. It is appreciated that, in the first instance, it would only be the State school that would give children from all families an equal chance of enrolment, provide denominational religious education to all students in separate belief groups and grant parity of esteem to all belief systems and cultures."
I'm not sure why you think the answer only applies if foreigners are present in the school, it doesn't read that way to me? It reads as if they would provide denominational religious instruction according to the belief groups present with a parity of esteem. Which doesn't sound so bad?If no foreigners, the default patronage position is "Catholic/Irish"
Originally Posted by 1.3.3.
When it comes to the celebration of feasts in schools, we celebrate Catholic/Irish feasts. To cater to diversity multi belief schools should celebrate the principal feasts of all groups in the school and display icons relevant to all belief groups in the school.
Celebrations at the beginning and end of school years should include religious leaders from all belief systems represented in the school.
1.3 How might competing demands for diversity be considered and accommodated?
1.3.3 When it comes to the celebration of feasts in schools, we celebrate Catholic/Irish feasts. To cater to diversity, multi-belief schools should celebrate the principal feasts of all groups in the school and display icons relevant to all belief groups in the school.
Firstly, it doesn't follow on from your point about when foreigners are present in schools (which is actually about parental choice), since it precedes that point in the paper, so it's not what happens if no foreigners are present in the school.
Secondly, in context they are clearly (to me anyway?) stating what does happen in schools (celebrating Catholic/Irish feasts), and what should happen when a school's patronage is divested to the ETB (multiple faith feasts should be celebrated).As we all know, if the State was to provide direct education through setting up its own schools, the schools would have to pander to all religions equally, or else pander to none. Secularists think the the State should pander to none.VEC/ETB thinks it can pander to all, by segregating the pupils during religious instruction classes;
Again, a fuller picture of their statement might be had by including the preceding point:
1.1.12 In consulting with parents about what a State managed school would offer to parents, the following should be highlighted.
The school would provide ethical and non-denominational religious education to all students within the curriculum in standard class groups – irrespective of
their families’ belief system. This would require a ‘de-denominalisation’ of the religious education programme, given the integrated curriculum.In the VEC/ETB vision, there is absolutely no problem with religious indoctrination in State schools, or with religious chaplains being brought into the schools and paid for by the State;I don't think much of the overall committee though, or their current vision for multi-segregation in primary schools. Its not to my taste at all.0 -
..they haven't proposed indoctrination, segregation (again, in the pejorative sense), brainwashing, or consultation of shamanic authorities.
IMO religious instruction = religious indoctrination = a mild form of brainwashing. Not to be confused with Religious Education, the school subject. If you don't agree with this, then take out the term "brainwashing" but that makes little or no difference to the discussion.
You accused me of "making stuff up" and when I selected quotes to back up the specific points I made, you accused me of quoting selectively. Of course I am not going to quote their entire document; that would be lazy and pointless.
I find it laughably ironic that they claim to be the only patron which accommodates all pupils whatever their ethos, yet they have only managed to enroll one solitary pupil.
This is what happens when delusions collide with reality.
The reality is that those parents who prefer "a catholic education" or "a protestant education" will go elsewhere, and those who prefer a secular education will also go elsewhere. Those who aren't too bothered and just happen to live next door to the school are most likely to attend.
What a waste of public money.0 -
First catholic secondary school in 30 years opens http://www.catholicireland.net/catholic-secondary-school-30-years-opens/
longer article on the schoolRoughly 10% of the students in the new school have Irish parents while the other 90% would have parents who have immigrated into Ireland.0 -
expectationlost wrote: »First catholic secondary school in 30 years opens http://www.catholicireland.net/catholic-secondary-school-30-years-opens/
There is a bizarre contradiction in this. People who are not catholics are alleged to have "voted for" this catholic school.Two patrons actively canvassed parents to support their bid for patronage of the new school, Le Chéile and Educate Together. However, local parents predominantly favoured Le Chéile.
Principal Aine Moran explained that Educate Together have a primary school in Tyrrelstown while there are three catholic primary schools in the catchment area in Ladyswell, St Patrick’s and St Luke’s.
Roughly 10% of the students in the new school have Irish parents while the other 90% would have parents who have immigrated into Ireland.
She said the school’s enrolment policy is not be based on religious affiliation as Le Chéile welcomes students from all faith traditions and none but on catchment area.
“We are open to everybody; that is very much what catholic education is about – being open to everybody and learning from one another. We have Muslims students, Hindu, Buddhist, Mormon, Christians and a small percentage of Catholic students. Most of our Irish students would describe themselves as nominally catholic – church attendance in the area is low.”
So the minority group who more than likely did not vote for this catholic patronage at all, get to receive a catholic education.
Effectively then, this is like one of those missionary schools they used to set up in Africa, except that its based in Ireland. The immigrants can't mix with the catholics in the more established schools because those are denominational schools and they are allowed to practice religious discrimination and sibling preference in the admissions policy.0 -
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its usually the non-catholic mutli-d/vec schools that a perceived as the dumping ground and people are accused of picking catholics schools to avoid them, its very hard to know what going on on the ground.0
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new Education ministers briefing http://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Ministers-Brief-/Ministers-Brief-2014.pdf
see if you can read it all, the IT noted that 75% of abuse compensation yet to be paid, gov trying to assert the moral responsibility as don't have or want to use legal measures
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/religious-orders-still-owe-75-of-redress-payments-for-abuse-1.19195820 -
expectationlost wrote: »the IT noted that 75% of abuse compensation yet to be paid, gov trying to assert the moral responsibility as don't have or want to use legal measures
Fcuk sake. When are they going to wake up? The RCC doesn't have morals. It understands two things, the compulsion of law and cold hard cash. The government are unable to collect the latter and unwilling to use the former.
What do the people of Ireland have to do to get justice? To force the authorities to do their duty? We are being stitched up yet again by the biggest vested interest in the country.Scrap the cap!
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I think if you read again the quotes I selected, you will find that they have proposed all those things.IMO religious instruction = religious indoctrination = a mild form of brainwashing.You accused me of "making stuff up" and when I selected quotes to back up the specific points I made, you accused me of quoting selectively. Of course I am not going to quote their entire document; that would be lazy and pointless.
Secondly, the way you quoted their document gave the impression they were saying something they actually weren't saying, even though that still didn't rise to the level of what you said they were proposing.
Thirdly, you added commentary to the effect that certain portions were to be applied to foreigners, and that preceding portions followed with portions to be applied to non-foreigners, without any foundation.
You don't think it's at all disingenuous to deliberately give the impression they're espousing something you can tell from your own reading that they aren't?I find it laughably ironic that they claim to be the only patron which accommodates all pupils whatever their ethos, yet they have only managed to enroll one solitary pupil.
So... a few more than one pupil?This is what happens when delusions collide with reality.The reality is that those parents who prefer "a catholic education" or "a protestant education" will go elsewhere, and those who prefer a secular education will also go elsewhere. Those who aren't too bothered and just happen to live next door to the school are most likely to attend.What a waste of public money.0 -
Could it be that when the opinion poll was taken, the majority of local (Irish born) parents voted for a RC school to be set up, but when the time came to enroll their kids, they sent them to the three existing and well established denominational schools.....leaving the new school to the immigrant kids ??So the minority group who more than likely did not vote for this catholic patronage at all, get to receive a catholic education.Effectively then, this is like one of those missionary schools they used to set up in Africa, except that its based in Ireland.The immigrants can't mix with the catholics in the more established schools because those are denominational schools and they are allowed to practice religious discrimination and sibling preference in the admissions policy.
Is there a reason you think it operates differently from the other demoninational schools?
Actually, do you know for a fact that the immigrants can't mix with the (presumably non-immigrant) catholics in the more established schools? Or are you speculating?0 -
LE CHEILE TRUST SCHOOLCould it be that the immigrant communities were already well established in the area and had a pre-conceived perception of catholic education institutions as being at the top end of education options? In countries other than Ireland catholic schools are often preferred options for more affluent individuals.
Or, the people who were looking for a catholic education voted for it and got it?
I don't know how they counted the votes, or how they took into account the fact that a lot of the voters probably had the names of their kids already down for the existing denominational schools from birth, and had no intention of using the new school.Isn't this also a denominational school? Isn't that what the article is about, that it's a new Catholic school?
Is there a reason you think it operates differently from the other demoninational schools?
Actually, do you know for a fact that the immigrants can't mix with the (presumably non-immigrant) catholics in the more established schools? Or
are you speculating?
No, its not a denominational school; its a catholic multi-denominational school. See this post for a clarification. It does not put non-catholics/immigrants to the back of the waiting list as a denominational school might. Which is why they all end up there.
ETB/VEC SCHOOL
Re the "solitary pupil" I was referring to the particular new ETB school that was being discussed a few posts ago. In this particular area (Tallaght) there was a good choice of several different primary schools in the area.
If a particular type of school can only attract pupils in areas where there are no other school places available in the local area, it does not say much for that type of school.
Re the "Shaman" thing. You are getting a bit hung up on this one word. Have you something against Shamans? Are they less valid than any other religious authority a religious person might choose to obey?
ETB have said that they are willing to impose the indoctrination as specified by the relevant religious authorities, during school hours. They will segregate the pupils during this process, according to what religions are present in the school (actually the parent's religion, to be precise)
Whether these "religious authority" people want to call themselves shamans, druids, priests, rabbis, mullahs, imams, ministers, vicars... its all the same to me. They are all at the same game.0 -
LE CHEILE TRUST SCHOOL
All that is possible. Applying the principle of Occam's Razor however, it is unlikely. The principal of the school says that only a small minority of pupils are catholic. The Department of Education says that the ethos of the school was chosen as a result of parental choice. Something about it smells very fishy.
I don't know how they counted the votes, or how they took into account the fact that a lot of the voters probably had the names of their kids already down for the existing denominational schools from birth, and had no intention of using the new school.
In other previous consultation events, the response rate from parents was very low - single figures if I recall correctly. So it was possible for a very small number of people to have undue influence on the outcome.0 -
Is there any information on the number of parents who actually voted and participated in the consultation?
Those people who were not involved in a parish had less idea what was going on. The whole process was more like a petition than a vote. Only people who had kids of a specific age were supposed to participate, and they had to put the child's name and the year the child was due to start school on the petition.0 -
This will never be resolved because fundamentally most Irish people seem to equate education and religion where as in normal counties people are more likely to see those two things as separate.
You've so many vested interests piled up to ensure that secular education never happens here that it's impossible to even get a proper public debate going.
I think we can look forward to an increasingly divided education system with costs that keep spiraling up and up as nobody with political power is prepared to do anything about it because they're either too stupid too see that this is going to be a huge issue in years to come, they don't care or they are part of the vested interests themselves (many Irish politicians are primary and secondary teachers).
I've basically given up on it. The country's institutions show a total inability to reform and resistance to anything that makes them more democratically accountable.
Ireland's nice in some ways but in others it's completely dysfunctional and stuck in a deep rut.0 -
All that is possible. Applying the principle of Occam's Razor however, it is unlikely. The principal of the school says that only a small minority of pupils are catholic. The Department of Education says that the ethos of the school was chosen as a result of parental choice. Something about it smells very fishy. I don't know how they counted the votes, or how they took into account the fact that a lot of the voters probably had the names of their kids already down for the existing denominational schools from birth, and had no intention of using the new school.No, its not a denominational school; its a catholic multi-denominational school. See this post for a clarification. It does not put non-catholics/immigrants to the back of the waiting list as a denominational school might. Which is why they all end up there.
It is conducted in accordance with the religious and educational philosophy of the trustees, who are Catholic religious congregations. But because it doesn't prefer Catholic students, it's not denominational? Interesting.Re the "solitary pupil" I was referring to the particular new ETB school that was being discussed a few posts ago.Re the "Shaman" thing. You are getting a bit hung up on this one word. Have you something against Shamans? Are they less valid than any other religious authority a religious person might choose to obey?ETB have said that they are willing to impose the indoctrination as specified by the relevant religious authorities, during school hours.They will segregate the pupils during this process, according to what religions are present in the school (actually the parent's religion, to be precise)Whether these "religious authority" people want to call themselves shamans, druids, priests, rabbis, mullahs, imams, ministers, vicars... its all the same to me. They are all at the same game.0 -
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Ah but they haven't have they? Seriously, have they once used the word 'indoctrinate' in their literature? Have they said anywhere that they will 'impose' anything?Did they say they would segregate students?
The word "segregate" does not necessarily refer to skin colour, although having said that I'm guessing the group containing muslims would have very few white faces.2.2.2.1 wrote:...provide denominational religious education to all students in separate belief groups and grant parity of esteem to all belief systems and cultures.
Re the word "impose", this is a subjective thing. From the point of view of the young child, "faith formation", if it is introduced into a school, is something that is imposed.
If some parent who claims to be a pagan, or a witch, or a satan-worshipper (and I'm not equating all these BTW) sends a child to the school, then the school will have to "impose" the relevant religious instruction on the child, as specified by the parent and their religious authority.
Unless the school can find some justification for reneging on their own rules. In which case they are no longer catering for all religions, but only the ones they approve of.
This is one of the reasons religion should be left outside the school gates.0 -
The terms "faith formation" and "religious instruction" are normally preferred by those advocating these things, but they all have the same meaning.They used the word "separate". The word "segregate" does not necessarily refer to skin colour, although having said that I'm guessing the group containing muslims would have very few white faces.
Which is not really the same as proposing to segregate all the pupils according to their individual religions, is it?Re the word "impose", this is a subjective thing. From the point of view of the young child, "faith formation", if it is introduced into a school, is something that is imposed.If some parent who claims to be a pagan, or a witch, or a satan-worshipper (and I'm not equating all these BTW) sends a child to the school, then the school will have to "impose" the relevant religious instruction on the child, as specified by the parent and their religious authority.Unless the school can find some justification for reneging on their own rules. In which case they are no longer catering for all religions, but only the ones they approve of. This is one of the reasons religion should be left outside the school gates.0 -
"Indoctrination" = "formation of beliefs which I do not share".0
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I'm not going to get into any more splitting hairs with regard to the use of certain words, but I'm happy to agree that all schools are involved in some form of "indoctrination" eg to indoctrinate "good behaviour" into pupils. To "form" or "mould" behaviours such as courtesy, sharing, thinking of others etc.
I think all parents are happy enough with this kind of indoctrination.
Its just the provision (imposition) of religious indoctrination I disagree with.0 -
I'm not going to get into any more splitting hairs with regard to the use of certain words, but I'm happy to agree that all schools are involved in some form of "indoctrination" eg to indoctrinate "good behaviour" into pupils. To "form" or "mould" behaviours such as courtesy, sharing, thinking of others etc. I think all parents are happy enough with this kind of indoctrination. Its just the provision (imposition) of religious indoctrination I disagree with.
Also that providing something is a far cry from imposing it.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 26428
Finally our schools are joining the modern world where employer's can't sack people for being gay
http://www.thejournal.ie/laws-discrimination-changed-1662535-Sep2014/It will soon be illegal to discriminate against gay teachers
Labour TD Aodhán Ó Ríordáin said he will be working on the amendment in the coming months.
This also means they can't sack teachers for:
- Sex outside of marriage
- Getting divorced
- Using condoms
- Getting pregnant outside of marriage0 -
I expect a barrage of nastiness from a certain Mr Quinn.0
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Finally our schools are joining the modern world where employer's can't sack people for being gay
http://www.thejournal.ie/laws-discrimination-changed-1662535-Sep2014/
This also means they can't sack teachers for:
- Sex outside of marriage
- Getting divorced
- Using condoms
- Getting pregnant outside of marriage0 -
expectationlost wrote: »till not sure tis adressing the protection of atheist teachers though
Ó Riordáin says he’s going to introduce a Bill to amend Employment Equality Act 1998 s. 37.
The relevant bit of s. 37 says:
A religious, educational or medical institution which is under the direction or control of a body established for religious purposes or whose objectives include the provision of services in an environment which promotes certain religious values shall not be taken to discriminate against a person . . . if . . .
(a) it gives more favourable treatment, on the religion ground, to an employee or a prospective employee over that person where it is reasonable to do so in order to maintain the religious ethos of the institution, or
(b) it takes action which is reasonably necessary to prevent an employee or a prospective employee from undermining the religious ethos of the institution.
Ó Riordáin intends to amend this and not delete it completely. And that makes sense; it couldn’t be right to for the state to try to force, e.g., a synagogue hiring a rabbi to disregard the candidates’ theological or doctrinal views. There does need to be some carve-out for religious organisations.
Ó Riordáin’s statement quoted in the Examiner mentions the divorced, single parents, and LGBT workers, so presumably the amendment he contemplates will forbid at least some religious organisations from discriminating on the basis of marital status and sexual orientation. But we can’t assume that it will apply to all religious organisations - presumably Catholic dioceses and religious orders will still be allowed not to accept married men as priests. At a minimum we can expect the amendment to extend to schools, but it remains to be seen whether it will extend any further. And we can’t assume that, even within schools, the amendment will address discrimination on grounds other than marital status and sexual orientation. Cabaal is therefore wrong to say that the amendment will protect those who use condoms, but in the real world this may not matter so much; I don’t think anybody has been fired for using a condom.
There may be a trade-off here; the more the amendment is narrowly focussed on schools, the stronger the case for saying that the amendment should forbid discrimination on most or all of the grounds listed in the Act.0 -
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Peregrinus wrote: »it couldn’t be right to for the state to try to force, e.g., a synagogue hiring a rabbi to disregard the candidates’ theological or doctrinal views. There does need to be some carve-out for religious organisations.
There is no need for this to impact on any "lay" jobs though. I don't agree that they need any opt-out of equality legislation for employees in secretarial, building maintenance, or teaching jobs. When the jobs are state funded that should go without saying, but even when they are paid out of church funds, an opt-out is still wrong.Peregrinus wrote: »At a minimum we can expect the amendment to extend to schools, but it remains to be seen whether it will extend any further. And we can’t assume that, even within schools, the amendment will address discrimination on grounds other than marital status and sexual orientation.
However being realistic, this is a Labour party guy, working apparently off his own bat, to try to make some difference. After he finishes his proposals they will be voted on in the Dail or Seanad, at which time they will also need Fine Gael support to succeed.
He is a former teacher, so he must have some insight into this. In general he seems a competent guy, so I'm hopeful he will come up with something worthwhile.0
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