School patronage

Brian Shanahan

robindch wrote: »

Martin also said that religion should never be forced:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/pluralist-ireland-can-only-happen-through-dialogue-and-respect-1.1950019

Mr. Diarmuid Martin wrote:

But when faith gives one an added dimension, one which enriches what is purely technical, that contribution should be welcomed by all

So in order to make our lives richer than it would be if we only looked at the technical side of things, we need to accept something imaginary into our lives?

I suspect that Mr. Martin is in dire need of the words of Carl Sagan, most especially his thoughts on the beauty of flowers.

Cabaal

Well if he's arguing for faith in the existence of god in primary and secondary level, I want the belief of real unicorns pushed as a real thing in schools

recedite

when faith gives one an added dimension, one which enriches what is purely technical, that contribution should be welcomed by all

If we are getting into dimensions beyond reality, why limit it to just one extra dimension. Distribute narcotics to school kids, and let them experience another surreal dimension :rolleyes:

Hotblack Desiato

Letter in today's Irish Times (not mine I hasten to add) :

Sir, – I’m intrigued by Rev Patrick G Burke (October 3rd) when he says that his local community school, with a “Catholic ethos”, which his two children attend, is “extremely inclusive” as they invite him “as the local Church of Ireland rector, to take part in all the school services”. While I’m pleased for him that it seems to work well for his family, it can scarcely be described as “extremely inclusive”. It reminds me of a line from the film The Blues Brothers: “‘What kind of music do you normally have here?’ ‘Oh, we’ve got both kinds – country and western’”. – Yours, etc,

robindch

Catholic bishops are concerned that equating all religion empties them "of any significance"; their spokesman also says that the organization which controls 93% of the country's primary schools wants “to be relevant as a counter-cultural voice” and that religion has a priority in all "reasoning and deliberation.” Peculiarly, the guy leading the church's internal division tasked with fostering "coherence in Catholic education" also believes that "the last thing we want to do is create a uniform picture of what it means to be a Catholic school".

And many other pieces of woolly-headed, hand-wavy, exclusivist thinking:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/bishops-warn-of-secularisation-of-catholic-schools-1.1961605

The actual report is here.

Irish Times wrote:

The educational office of the Catholic Bishops is encouraging its schools to be more assertive in upholding religious values to avoid becoming “secularised from within”. In a document published today on the church’s future in second-level education, the Catholic Schools Partnership (CSP) says religious education should not be reduced to a branch of the “social sciences”. “To equate all religions is, in a real sense, to empty them of any significance,” it says.

The document also argues that Catholic secondary schools are “severely disadvantaged” in terms of state funding, citing an ESRI report last year which showed the extent to which such schools were dependant on voluntary contributions to remain open. Fr Michael Drumm, executive chairman of the CSP, said “the argument for more funding is not the key aim [of the document]; the central aim is to awaken consciousness of the significance of the voluntary sector.” He said it sought to “provide schools with a process to reflect on their identity”, and also to highlight the distinct contribution of voluntary schools to society.

The CSP was founded by the Irish Bishops’ Conference and the Conference of Religious of Ireland in 2010 to foster “coherence in Catholic education” and support its school trustees. The report “Catholic Education at Second Level: Looking to the Future” notes that over the past 25 years, the number of voluntary secondary schools has fallen from 493 to 374. Some 344 of those remaining are Catholic. The rest of the second-level sector is made up of 254 so-called state schools, governed by Education and Training Boards, with Catholic involvement in management in a minority of cases; and 95 community and comprehensive schools of mixed patronage.

Calling for a renewed commitment to ethos, Fr Drumm said: “There is a danger – or a trend – all over Europe and particularly in second-level that schools can become secularised from within. There is a certain inevitability to that unless they pay attention to their voluntary status.” There was a role for Catholic schools “to be relevant as a counter-cultural voice”, he added. “I think there is a way of being Catholic that is very inclusive and would not be a closed door.”

However, “it would be very untrue to say all Catholic secondary schools are the same. Some serve very disadvantaged social communities, others serve very diverse social communities. So the last thing we want to do is create a uniform picture of what it means to be a Catholic school.” At its core, the document encourages parents and boards of management to ask: “Why do we have Catholic schools?” It suggests that they draw on a number of factors, including the inspiration of “Jesus the teacher”, the role of schools in intercultural dialogue, the principles of Vatican II, and the notion that Catholic schools respect both faith and reason.

On the latter, it says, “faith and reason can live and thrive in the same person... There is no contradiction between being a fully educated person and a committed Christian.” At the same time, religious education “deals with ultimate questions” and as such is afforded special status. “Since religion deals with matters of fundamental, ultimate concern it follows that the religious response has a priority in all one’s subsequent reasoning and deliberation.”

On finance, the report says “there are serious concerns about the workload carried by principals in Catholic secondary schools as a result of increased administrative burdens and recent cuts in resources... Such a scenario is unsustainable”. In its report, the ESRI identified a “significant gap” - estimated at about 30 per cent - between the funding of faith-based schools and state schools. Unlike state schools, trust companies have to pay a number of running costs themselves, including secretarial assistance, management of building projects and insurance.

recedite

In its report, the ESRI identified a “significant gap” - estimated at about 30 per cent - between the funding of faith-based schools and state schools. Unlike state schools, trust companies have to pay a number of running costs themselves, including secretarial assistance, management of building projects and insurance.

I think they mean by this that private schools receive about 30% less funding than those in the free education system. Those in the free system can still be faith schools, but they are not allowed to cherry-pick their pupils to the same extent (ie apart from religious discrimination which is allowed in both school types) So for example there could be a child from a "traveller" family in a free school under religious patronage, but a private school could exclude them.
There are no "state schools" in the sense of unbiased and secular schools directly run by the state.
More on that here.

Drumm is being very disingenuous in trying to conflate the (actual) lesser state funding given to private schools with (imagined) lesser funding given to religious schools. This is simply not true.

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

I think they mean by this that private schools receive about 30% less funding than those in the free education system. <...>Drumm is being very disingenuous in trying to conflate the (actual) lesser state funding given to private schools with (imagined) lesser funding given to religious schools. This is simply not true.

I don't think so... their report includes this quote from the ESRI report
"Clear differences are evident between the three school sectors; voluntary secondary schools receive an average of just over two-thirds of their funding from government sources while the proportion is much larger for the vocational and community/comprehensive schools (with an average of 90 per cent and 93 per cent respectively). as a result, voluntary secondary schools are more reliant on other sources of income, including fees, fundraising, renting out school premises and income from the trust or other patron body"

The ESRI identified three school sectors:
Voluntary secondary schools which receive a per capita grant based on studentnumbers;
The ETBs (formerly VECs), which are allocated a ‘block grant’ and distribute funds to their schools;
Community and comprehensive schools which negotiate their own individualbudgets with the DES.
Currently, voluntary secondary schools make up 52 per cent of all second-level schools (catering for 58 per cent of students); vocational schools (including community colleges) comprise 35 per cent of schools and community/comprehensive schools make up 13 per cent of schools.
The fact that the ESRI states that Voluntary Secondary Schools make up 52% of Secondary schools pretty much demonstrates that they're not private schools, but for the avoidance of doubt:
The definition of a Voluntary Secondary School is a school which is privately owned and managed. They are under the trusteeship of religious communities, boards of governors or individuals. Voluntary secondary schools may be fee-paying or non-fee-paying. Fee-paying schools are not eligible for Government funding to assist with running costs.

So, he's not trying to conflate the lesser state funding given to private schools (ie schools not part of the free education system) with (imagined) lesser funding given to religious schools; private (fee paying) schools are part of the voluntary secondary schools sector, and receive even less funding than voluntary secondary schools do compared to the other sectors.

But that's not really a new thing; it was pointed out way back in this thread that where trusts/patrons are responsible for running a school, their contract requires them to pay a portion of the running costs.

Anyways, I think you've done Fr Drumm rather a disservice claiming he's being very disingenuous and saying things that are simply not true, in this regard.

Hotblack Desiato

Claims were made in here before about substantial funding from religious bodies for schools under their patronage, but no evidence was ever forthcoming.

The implication is that the one-third is coming out of the bishop's back pocket when in reality the vast bulk, if not all, of it is coming from 'voluntary' contributions and PTA fundraising.

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Claims were made in here before about substantial funding from religious bodies for schools under their patronage, but no evidence was ever forthcoming.

The implication is that the one-third is coming out of the bishop's back pocket when in reality the vast bulk, if not all, of it is coming from 'voluntary' contributions and PTA fundraising.

How relevant is that, though? Does it matter whether the non-state money coming into a Catholic school is coming from ordained Catholics or unordained Catholics? What matters is that it's not coming from taxpayer funds, and if the system is changed that the schools concerned are brought into the fully-funded system it will have to come from taxpayer funds.

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

The definition of a Voluntary Secondary School is a school which is privately owned and managed. They are under the trusteeship of religious communities, boards of governors or individuals. Voluntary secondary schools may be fee-paying or non-fee-paying.

This definition refers to "a privately owned school, either fee paying or free". I accept that is one possible category of school. Then they have two further categories; the community schools and the community colleges. I'm not sure many people would know the difference, but for administrative purposes the Department of Ed puts them in different categories. Historically the department has been influenced by the church in matters of administrative policy and funding.

Drumm actually claimed that the difference was "between the funding of faith-based schools and state schools". Not between privately owned schools and publicly owned schools.

Here's a school that is currently being built near where I live, it opened last month with first year students in a pre-fab. It is being built entirely with public money, will be publicly owned, is non-fee paying, under religious patronage with a strong religious ethos, and requires a letter of "active parish affiliation" to guarantee pupils a place.
Which of the three listed Department of Ed categories would you put it in? Or using the Drumm criteria, is it "a faith based based school" or "a state school" ?

lazygal

I can see secondary schools making it more and more difficult for a)students and parents to access places and b) opt out of religious eduction or instruction when in school. I see this with parents I know of-the school often claims they can't' accommodate special requirements like not doing religion classes or that if parents want to exclude their children they will have to provide supervision. The access rules are a big headache for us, being based in Dublin. I'm not a fan of private fee paying education as it is, but the fee paying religious schools in our area really exclude on religious grounds and claim to be unable to accommodate anyone with special needs so the schools in the non fee paying sector pick up all the slack.
Then you've got the likes of Blackrock and Belvedere showing their christian spirit and showing exactly how and why the church maintains its sphere of influence in politics and the law by rallying the troops.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/belvedere-past-pupils-join-rockmen-in-admissions-battle-1.1959589

shruikan2553

Peregrinus wrote: »

How relevant is that, though? Does it matter whether the non-state money coming into a Catholic school is coming from ordained Catholics or unordained Catholics? What matters is that it's not coming from taxpayer funds, and if the system is changed that the schools concerned are brought into the fully-funded system it will have to come from taxpayer funds.

An argument for having 93% of the schools as Catholic schools is because the Catholic patrons pay for it. If a school wishes for taxpayer funds it should be suitable for all tax payers.

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

This definition refers to "a privately owned school, either fee paying or free". I accept that is one possible category of school. Then they have two further categories; the community schools and the community colleges. I'm not sure many people would know the difference, but for administrative purposes the Department of Ed puts them in different categories.

Yes; the three specified in the ESRI report.

recedite wrote: »

Drumm actually claimed that the difference was "between the funding of faith-based schools and state schools". Not between privately owned schools and publicly owned schools.

Well no, he didn't. The ESRI did. You yourself quoted the ESRI as saying they identified a “significant gap” between the funding of faith-based schools and state schools. From the information above, they quite obviously did not mean by this that private schools receive about 30% less funding than those in the free education system. Claiming that Fr Drumm was being disingenuous at this point, is, well, disingenuous.

recedite wrote: »

Here's a school that is currently being built near where I live, it opened last month with first year students in a pre-fab. It is being built entirely with public money, will be publicly owned, is non-fee paying, under religious patronage with a strong religious ethos, and requires a letter of "active parish affiliation" to guarantee pupils a place. Which of the three listed Department of Ed categories would you put it in? Or using the Drumm criteria, is it "a faith based based school" or "a state school" ?

I'm guessing you don't mean the Drumm criteria, but the ESRI criteria, since it's a quote from the ESRI you're using, not Fr Drumm? Based on the fact that it's a Secondary School (rather than a Vocational or Comprehensive school) and has a Board of Management, it's likely to be a Voluntary Secondary School, but I'd suggest the only real test is whether it's Board of Management is represented by the JMB, the ETBI, or the ACCS.

SpaceTime

The one thing I know is that this is Ireland's biggest vested interest and I can't really see anything changing because the political system and administration system here alligns itself to vested interests at all times.

They'll spend years hand wringing and producing reports and nothing will change. They'll probably just roll out Islamic schools to add another layer of religiosity to the mix.

Also I think they see athiests and non religious as "lapsed Catholics". If you were a devout member of an obscure branch of some very obscure religion, you'd get respect. However the mentality in religious institutions here is Irish athiest = trouble making lapsed catholic who must be "put back on correct path".

shruikan2553

SpaceTime wrote: »

The one thing I know is that this is Ireland's biggest vested interest and I can't really see anything changing because the political system and administration system here alligns itself to vested interests at all times.

They'll spend years hand wringing and producing reports and nothing will change. They'll probably just roll out Islamic schools to add another layer of religiosity to the mix.

Also I think they see athiests and non religious as "lapsed Catholics". If you were a devout member of an obscure branch of some very obscure religion, you'd get respect. However the mentality in religious institutions here is Irish athiest = trouble making lapsed catholic who must be "put back on correct path".

You are either Catholic, Protestant, foreign or a Catholic trying to be rebellious. Might as well just have those 4 options on the census.

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

I'm guessing you don't mean the Drumm criteria, but the ESRI criteria, since it's a quote from the ESRI you're using, not Fr Drumm?

Fair enough it seems to have been the words of the Irish Times reporter, referring to Drumm who was referring to an ESRI report. Is it any wonder people are getting confused.:D Father Drumm does distinguish between what he calls "state schools" and what he calls "voluntary schools" and to be fair to him, he also acknowledges that even the VEC schools, as "state schools" were originally set up to be controlled by the RCC. These are known as the designated VEC/ETB schools. He bemoans the fact that some of the newer ones are not under the direct control of the local bishop. Even though they still provide a course of religious instruction prescribed and approved by RCC, that is still not good enough for him.

Absolam wrote: »

Based on the fact that it's a Secondary School (rather than a Vocational or Comprehensive school) and has a Board of Management, it's likely to be a Voluntary Secondary School..

But it is not privately owned, which was one of the criteria listed in the definition of a "voluntary sector" school. It is owned by the state.

recedite

All these arbitrary definitions come from a time when the Department of Education did nothing without the approval of church bodies.

Its high time we cut the crap and created two main categories of school;

1. Public/State schools. Open to all members of the public. No fees; state funded. Teaching only a national curriculum, no particular religious indoctrination. Both the employment policy and the admissions policy entirely free of any form of discrimination, whether religious, race, gender, marital status, sexual orientation etc..

2. Private Schools. Allowed to discriminate on various grounds. Allowed to indoctrinate the pupils with material outside the national curriculum. Public funding severely restricted, and inversely proportional to the amount of (a) discrimination and (b) non-curricular material at the school.

lazygal

SpaceTime wrote: »

The one thing I know is that this is Ireland's biggest vested interest and I can't really see anything changing because the political system and administration system here alligns itself to vested interests at all times.

They'll spend years hand wringing and producing reports and nothing will change. They'll probably just roll out Islamic schools to add another layer of religiosity to the mix.

Also I think they see athiests and non religious as "lapsed Catholics". If you were a devout member of an obscure branch of some very obscure religion, you'd get respect. However the mentality in religious institutions here is Irish athiest = trouble making lapsed catholic who must be "put back on correct path".

As I said I'm in Dublin and I don't see anything changing, particularly where private fee paying religious schools are concerned. I know lots of men, in particular, who have and will baptise their sons for the sole reason of ensuring they get a place in their alma mater. These are men who wouldn't see a church for anything outside weddings and funerals and often say they are atheist, but first and foremost Junior has to go to Blackrock/Gonzaga/Belvedere/Terenure/wherever else.
Their daughters they don't seem as worried about but that's a whole different story…..

SpaceTime

lazygal wrote: »

As I said I'm in Dublin and I don't see anything changing, particularly where private fee paying religious schools are concerned. I know lots of men, in particular, who have and will baptise their sons for the sole reason of ensuring they get a place in their alma mater. These are men who wouldn't see a church for anything outside weddings and funerals and often say they are atheist, but first and foremost Junior has to go to Blackrock/Gonzaga/Belvedere/Terenure/wherever else.
Their daughters they don't seem as worried about but that's a whole different story…..

They just ensure their daughters marry the correct rugby playing establishment banker obviously!

Not much has changed in that element of society since the 1820s.

lazygal

SpaceTime wrote: »

They just ensure their daughters marry the correct rugby playing establishment banker obviously!

Not much has changed in that element of society since the 1820s.

And it won't, as long as that element keeps educating the future leaders of the country in Good Catholic Morals to maintain the status quo.

SpaceTime

The sexism aspect of it could do with a lot more exposure too.

It's really been the universities that have broken the glass ceiling by creating an alternative network. Elite fee paying schools both here and in the UK are firmly wedded to victorianism.

There seems to be a huge issue at the top of politics etc etc around the old boys club.

lazygal

I think one of the most damaging aspects of Irish education is gender segregation. It encourages all sorts of nonsense and reinforces a lot of rigid stereotypes. But again like the ethos element, most people seem to accept that for secondary school at least, Boys go Here and Girls go There.

I often wonder how people who relocate here from other countries to work in the multinationals, often at a high level, feel about how religious so many aspects of our education system and health care (especially reproductive rights) are, and if anyone is put off coming here.

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

But it is not privately owned, which was one of the criteria listed in the definition of a "voluntary sector" school. It is owned by the state.

Ah, it's just as well you didn't quote the rest of my sentence then..

Absolam wrote: »

I'd suggest the only real test is whether it's Board of Management is represented by the JMB, the ETBI, or the ACCS.

But if it makes you feel better, I don't mind which category you think the school ought to be placed in... and it doesn't really affect your misrepresentation of Fr Drumm.

SpaceTime

I know personally of a few people who were quite nervous of it and were very put off by the school system which they felt was like something out of a bygone era.

The university system is completely different and, other than teacher training institutes, generally very secular and open minded. The primary and secondary system is lost somewhere in the late 19th century though.

I think the issues around conservative social policy are less of a big deal than they were but they're still significant, especially for non-EU nationals who wouldn't be able to easily access services abroad.

We tend to forget that Irish and EU nationals can seek treatment in the UK, Netherlands etc if they find themselves in an unfortunate situation where they might need to terminate a pregnancy.

If you're from another country and are on a mediocre income that's not necessarily so straight forward as you'd need health insurance. If you're the CEO of a company or something maybe no big deal but if you're say an American software engineer, a Chinese university researcher or an Indian nurse or junior doctor you'll possibly find that a LOT more of a challenge.

I can only imagine what people thought in the 1970s and 80s when even condoms where strictly regulated. I suppose it must have seemed like a catholic version of Iran or Saudai Arabia or something like that.

robindch

SpaceTime wrote: »

I can only imagine what people thought in the 1970s and 80s when even condoms where strictly regulated.

Lest anybody forget, the sale of condoms, the pill and other contraceptives was fully deregulated only in 1992:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraception_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1992/en/act/pub/0020/index.html

robindch

Gods law never changes, except when it does - the bishop of Clonfert now realizes that beating schoolchildren is wrong. Interesting comments by Jeanette Ryan and Michael Jennings.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/bishop-regrets-use-of-corporal-punishment-as-a-teacher-1.1962174

Irish Times wrote:

Bishop of Clonfert John Kirby has expressed his regret at the use of corporal punishment during his time as a teacher in a Co Galway secondary school. "Corporal punishment was still the order of the day," Dr Kirby has said, referring to the late 1960s, when he taught mathematics at Garbally College in Ballinasloe. "I regret that at this stage, but that was the way it was at the time," he has told former pupil Ollie Jennings in a radio documentary that is due to be broadcast on Galway Bay FM later this week. Mr Jennings, manager of musical group The Saw Doctors, interviewed Dr Kirby and a number of teachers and former pupils for the documentary, The Class of ’69.

Dr Kirby refers to the "tough regime" at the boarding school – a fact confirmed by former French teacher Jeanette Ryan, who said she preferred to use the powers of persuasion. "I could not understand why the males in the school, who were a lot bigger and stronger than I was, could not revert to the same, rather than use a stick," she says. Pupils had to wake for daily Mass at 7am, and those who were late were "caned on the stairs", according to a former pupil, Michael Jennings. "On the one hand, you’d have the Latin Kyrie Eleison and then, swish, swish, crack – guys getting caned at 7.35am," he said.

Classmates, including former Irish and Lions rugby captain Ciarán Fitzgerald, former Fianna Fáil minister Noel Treacy, novelist Desmond Hogan, and All Ireland hurling winner Sean Silke, were also interviewed. Mr Treacy describes how he was knocked unconscious by Mr Fitzgerald, then also a junior boxing champion, at an exhibition boxing match in the school. Mr Fitzgerald, who was coached by Dr Kirby and the late Fr Kevin Ryle, describes how he liked rugby for its "physical contact" and "the fact that you could nearly get into a fight legally". Mr Fitzgerald also played the part of Bill Sykes in a school performance of Oliver.

The Class of ’69 by Ollie Jennings will be broadcast on Galway Bay FM on Thursday at 11.10am.

SpaceTime

robindch wrote: »

Gods law never changes, except when it does - the bishop of Clonfert now realizes that beating schoolchildren is wrong. Interesting comments by Jeanette Ryan and Michael Jennings.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/bishop-regrets-use-of-corporal-punishment-as-a-teacher-1.1962174

And they wonder why a generations of Irish people lacked self confidence....

lazygal

SpaceTime wrote: »

And they wonder why a generations of Irish people lacked self confidence....

Self confidence is the antidote to religion. I see how full of joy my children are and how confident they are and I wonder why anyone would associate sin with their innocent little selves.

Hotblack Desiato

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/planned-schools-admissions-bill-a-form-of-micro-management-1.1962057

Planned schools admissions bill a form of ‘micro-management’

New legislation aimed at combatting discrimination in schools admissions policies is an unwelcome form of “micro-management”, the Catholic church’s leading spokesman on education has said.

Fr Michael Drumm, executive chairman of the Catholic Schools Partnership, which oversees the education sector on behalf of the Irish bishops, said “we are strongly of the view that admissions should not be dealt with by legislation”.

In addition, he warned that any attempt to prevent religious schools from giving preference to children of their respective faith would be unconstitutional.

Concern about the Admissions Bill has been stirred up in recent weeks in a number of Catholic secondary schools.

Past pupils at fee-paying, Holy Ghost school Blackrock College, Dublin and Jesuit school Belvedere College have written to alumni urging them to campaign against the bill.

I don't think he can possibly be right about the constitutional aspect, but it's a common scare tactic these days for people to say that anything they don't agree with is 'unconstitutional' :rolleyes:

SpaceTime

Quite the contrary perhaps:

44
"4° Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school."

However, we have to always remember that the constitution is only important when it saying something that's inline with conservative, status quo principles.

Anything outside of that and 'sure it's only an auld bit of paper'.