School patronage

Bannasidhe

Peregrinus wrote: »

Why are you asking me that question? I haven't suggested that they should do so.

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's not that difficult. There's a long tradition of introducing non-scriptural elements into nativity plays, and it's comparatively easy to pick some of those elements from non-Christian cultures. I don't see why you think this would be difficult. Obviously it depends on what cultural traditions are represented in the school, but Muslims are generally happy to be involved in nativity festivals, what with Jesus being a significant figure in Islam, and Hindus are typically also very keen, their own tradition being an extremely inclusive one when it comes to acknowledging and incorporating new traditions that they encounter. Here in Australia I've attended several nativities with indigenous Australian elements added - the shepherds become Aboriginal hunters, the angels are dreamtime figures, the census is administered by whitefellas in police uniform, the flight into Egypt becomes a story of dispossession. And of course there is no tableau which cannot be improved by the addition of a kangaroo!

I honestly don't see why you think this would be problematic. You just have to use a bit of imagination.

I asked you as you seem to be singing the praise of what is in effect a form of subliminal messaging - oh, we can have kangaroos and didgeridoos and Jesus is significant for Muslims and Hindus are inclusive so what's the harm but the fact remain that the underlying message remains a play celebrating Christianity and the birth of it's 'founder'.

Not to mention the harm done to native Australians by Christians... talk about adding salt to the wound

iguana

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's not that difficult. There's a long tradition of introducing non-scriptural elements into nativity plays, and it's comparatively easy to pick some of those elements from non-Christian cultures.

Ah I get you. Like holding nativity plays in December just because the pre-Christian Europeans had various big festivals in December when the scriptures put Jesus' birth somewhere between April and October.

expectationlost

City school first to be handed over by church authorities http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/city-school-first-to-be-handed-over-by-church-authorities-29595101.html basin lane at last handed over but with ethos strings attached?

Archbishop of Dublin Dr Diarmuid Martin had previously agreed that the Christian Brothers' boys' primary school could merge with a local girls' Catholic school to facilitate Educate Together. The amalgamated, co-ed school, called St James' Primary School, opened this month.

The agreement follows months of wrangling between the two sides over the terms of the handover of the Basin Lane site, which stymied Mr Quinn's hopes of opening a new Educate Together school on the site this month.

im sure the dept can make use of the school as a religious one, but we still need more non-religious and we're not going to get them via the cbs.

lazygal

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's not that difficult. There's a long tradition of introducing non-scriptural elements into nativity plays, and it's comparatively easy to pick some of those elements from non-Christian cultures. I don't see why you think this would be difficult. Obviously it depends on what cultural traditions are represented in the school, but Muslims are generally happy to be involved in nativity festivals, what with Jesus being a significant figure in Islam, and Hindus are typically also very keen, their own tradition being an extremely inclusive one when it comes to acknowledging and incorporating new traditions that they encounter. Here in Australia I've attended several nativities with indigenous Australian elements added - the shepherds become Aboriginal hunters, the angels are dreamtime figures, the census is administered by whitefellas in police uniform, the flight into Egypt becomes a story of dispossession. And of course there is no tableau which cannot be improved by the addition of a kangaroo!

I honestly don't see why you think this would be problematic. You just have to use a bit of imagination.

Why does there need to be a nativity play at all, which is a Christian story? Plenty of other plays children could do which don't have a religious message.

mohawk

expectationlost wrote: »

City school first to be handed over by church authorities http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/city-school-first-to-be-handed-over-by-church-authorities-29595101.html basin lane at last handed over but with ethos strings attached?



im sure the dept can make use of the school as a religious one, but we still need more non-religious and we're not going to get them via the cbs.

Reading the comments section was frustrating. I don't know who these people hate more atheists or 'foreigners'.

Brian Shanahan

lazygal wrote: »

How is that done when its a Christian story?

Easy, do all the bits in the bible stolen from other religions and cultures.

The only problem is that the kids would be too old for college by the time it finished.

PopePalpatine

mohawk wrote: »

Reading the comments section was frustrating. I don't know who these people hate more atheists or 'foreigners'.

I think I've seen other Boardsies compare the Indo to the Daily Mail, and I'm starting to see their point.

Hotblack Desiato

Peregrinus wrote: »

I didn't write about "smug, lazy atheists". For the record, I don't consider atheists to be either smug or lazy.

I wrote about a smug, lazy trope. It's a trope advanced by secularists, not athiests, and then not by all secularists; my impression is only by a minority. And, even then, I am not saying that those who advance this trope are smug, lazy people; all I am saying is that they are advancing a smug and lazy trope.

And I can't resist pointing out that the trope in question is that people - including secularist people - who disagree with a certain claim about what secularism requires are practising a hypocrisy. Should I ask why you don't comment when someone says, without bothering to advance an argument, that disagreement with his favoured view is "hypocrisy", but when I suggest that claim is a smug and lazy one you find it "a bit much"?

No, you shouldn't ask a poster why they have or haven't commented on a particular post, and you can't infer agreement or disagreement based on what they don't write.

Care to address the point I did write?

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

City school first to be handed over by church authorities http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/city-school-first-to-be-handed-over-by-church-authorities-29595101.html basin lane at last handed over but with ethos strings attached?

Very lazy journalism there, its mostly old rumours rehashed. A deal has apparently been done, that seems to be all the newspaper knows.

Money was an issue between the sides, with the department wanting to take over the building at little or no cost, but ERST said that it could be constrained legally from releasing the property at less than its commercial value.
Among the issues raised by ERST was that it was only permitted to sell off school buildings to "further the purpose of Catholic Education in the Edmund Rice tradition".

Or, if you prefer, from the same article...

the agreed arrangements did not involve any payments.

It could mean anything, or nothing. It would be interesting to find out though;
1. Whether the Christian Brother trust fund is being paid by the govt. for this lease, while at the same time getting the govt. to cover their abuse redress costs.
2.Whether the Christian Brother trust fund is permitted by the govt. to influence in any way the "ethos" of the new school that occupies the building.

expectationlost

St. James's Primary School
James St., Dublin 8 ,Dublin 8

http://www.schooldays.ie/school/st.-jamess-primary-school-rollnumber-20429F


http://www.education.ie/en/find-a-school/School-Detail/?roll=20429F

Principal's name:MISS NOREEN FLYNN formerly president INTO and principal Mater Dei Primary School http://www.irelandstats.com/school/mater-dei-primary-school-rollnumber-00743w/

http://www.schooldays.ie/school/mater-dei-primary-school-rollnumber-00743W Mater Dei Primary School
Amalgamated Sept 2013
Basin Lane James Street Dublin 8 ,Dublin City 8
Ethos: Catholic

recedite

Yes, but I think what happened is; there was a choice of two schools originally; one for boys run by Christian Brothers and one for girls (presumably run by some class of nuns in the past). For some reason, parents have been reluctant to send their kids to the schools in recent years. So now the RCC have amalgamated the two into this new happy clappy catholic school, St. James. That leaves one spare building, which the Dept. of Education thought the owners might like to hand over to their direct competitors, the new ET school. But apparently this was not such a straightforward process....

expectationlost

yes reading the irish times today seems ET is getting a building http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ruair%C3%AD-quinn-seeks-parents-views-on-religion-in-primary-schools-amid-plans-for-lessons-about-atheism-1.1536639

recedite

Still, it is annoying that when the school holidays ended a few weeks ago, the new happy clappy multicultural co-ed catholic school was all newly refurbished and staffed at the State's expense, while the ET school had nowhere to go. We still don't know whether the Dept. of Education is paying for the lease of the spare building, and whether this money (if any) will be spent by the trust fund to make the catholic school into the "better" school of the local area.
Schools with access to private sources of money in addition to the normal State capitation grants and State payroll (teacher salaries) can employ extra SNA staff, admin staff, caretakers, PE teachers. They can buy computers, whiteboards etc...

recedite

What happens next is the local atheists and agnostics fall over themselves trying to get their kids baptised, because getting the best education for their kids is what matters most to them.

The local parish priest announces that henceforth parents will have to attend mass once a month before they can apply to have their kids baptised, or get into the school.

Newly arrived immigrants, members of the evangelical churches, and muslims sign up with the new city centre ET school. As they look at the faces around them in the school, they wonder where all the white people are.

I'm not saying all this will happen, just that it would be a mistake to set up things in such a way that it could happen.

expectationlost

Parents get say in school changes http://irishexaminer.com/ireland/parents-get-say-in-school-changes-244059.html

But the issue affecting far more families is how non-Catholic children are catered for in so-called ‘standalone’ schools — more than half 3,250 primary schools, mostly in rural Ireland — where there is no other school within easy access for local pupils.

As an aid to making submissions, leaflets available on his department’s website and from local parents’ associations set out recommendations in last year’s report of the expert group that oversaw the forum, including suggestions that:

- Enrolment policies should be clear on how places are allocated when demand exceeds available space;

- Schools need to make appropriate provision for children whose parents do not want them taught religion.

National Parents Council-Primary chief executive Áine Lynch urged families to engage in the process.

Minister Quinn launches public consultation on inclusiveness in primary schools - See more at: http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2013-Press-Releases/PR-%2013-%2009-%2023.html#sthash.nXzchTZI.dpuf

Obliq

"Denominational Religious Education
The Advisory Group recommends that sacramental preparation, or education for religious
rites of other belief systems, should not encroach on the time allocated for the general
curriculum and recommends on-going discussion with parents and clergy with regard to
the parish role in sacramental preparation."

WOW! This'll put the cat among the pigeons, for sure! I'll get going on my submission tomorrow.


This leaflet from the education.ie press release is fantastic btw. I approve thoroughly http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Conferences/Patronage-and-Pluralism-in-the-Primary-Sector/Parents-we-would-like-to-hear-what-you-think.pdf

Fair play to Minister Rory Quinn.

recedite

And some other potentially very important proposals from the Advisory Group there;

A new ethics program called ERB (Education about Religion and Beliefs)

The Advisory Group is of the view that all children have the right to receive education in ERB and Ethics and the State has the responsibility to ensure that this is provided. The Advisory Group requests that the NCCA, with assistance from the partners and mindful of existing programmes, should develop curriculum and teacher guidelines for ERB and Ethics, in line with the Toledo Principles, the RedCo, and the Cambridge Primary Review.
The Advisory Group has a particular concern for those children who do not participate in religious programmes in denominational schools. They may go through their primary schooling without any ERB and ethical education. For these children, the proposed programmes in ERB and Ethics are of central importance.
For other children, where programmes, already in existence, provide for some ERB and Ethics, the proposed NCCA programmes can be supplementary and the amount of the new programmes provided may be flexible within existing timetable provision.

Possible end to legalised religious discrimination in school admission policies, where the school is the only one in the area (but no mention of teacher recruitment policies)

Enrolment in a Stand-Alone school
The Advisory Group endorses the Minister for Education and Skills’ view that equitable enrolment policies are essential for achieving fairness and diversity. Particularly in some Stand Alone schools, the Group noted that the derogation in the Equal Status Act, 2000, Section 7(3)(c) may impede the Department of Education and Skills’ duty to provide for education for all children. In the light of experience, further consideration might need to be given to the amendment of this derogation.

Delete Rule 68 ?

The Advisory Group recommends that, as a first step and in line with the general view expressed at the Forum, Rule 68 should be deleted as soon as possible.

Full text of Rule 68, Dept of Education "Rules for National Schools" (first edition produced in 1965, during the Reign of Archbishop John Charles McQuaid, R.C. Archbishop of Dublin 1940-1971)

"Of all the parts of a school curriculum Religious Instruction is by far the most important, as its subject-matter, God's honour and service, includes the proper use of all man's faculties, and affords the most powerful inducements to their proper use. Religious Instruction is, therefore, a fundamental part of the school course, and a religious spirit should inform and vivify the whole work of the school. The teacher should constantly inculcate the practice of charity, justice, truth, purity, patience, temperance, obedience to lawful authority, and all the other moral virtues. In this way he will fulfil the primary duty of an educator, the moulding to perfect form of his pupils' character, habituating them to observe, in their relations with God and with their neighbour, the laws which God, both directly through the dictates of natural reason and through Revelation, and indirectly through the ordinance of lawful authority, imposes on mankind."

Well I'll be putting my faculties to "proper use" by sending in a submission in support of these proposals.

Don't forget to include the approved submission form Appendix 1 if doing so; it seems it will have to be printed off and posted in with a letter by snail mail. Small sacrifices though, for great progress.

expectationlost

this could cause trouble for the schools already following some of these practises

robindch

Educate Together gets the go-ahead for another two schools:

http://www.educatetogether.ie/media/national-news/knocknacarra-dublin-4-schools
http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2013-Press-Releases/PR2013-09-26.html

It's baby steps, but by golly, they're steps in the right direction.

expectationlost

Educate Together doesn't get the go-ahead for another two schools

http://news.eircom.net/national/21376087/

in swords and Midleton/Carrigtwohill area of East Cork

recedite

The Swords primary school would have been ETB or ESI, not ET. It has been deferred because neither could demonstrate sufficient parental demand.
It must be quite difficult for a new patron to gather parental support; a lot of people don't like to experiment on something new when it comes to their kids education.
ETB is the new name for the VEC, well known for secondary schools but not for primary.
ESI has a website; http://www.educationalsociety.ie/

lazygal

Also, as demonstrated on numerous threads, even parents who claim to be atheist often seem to give into baptisms and send their children to schools where they'll do communion etc, despite objections they may have. Hard to galvanise support when even those who are of no faith decide to raise their children and educate them in faith schools.

expectationlost

recedite wrote: »

The Swords primary school would have been ETB or ESI, not ET. It has been deferred because neither could demonstrate sufficient parental demand.
It must be quite difficult for a new patron to gather parental support; a lot of people don't like to experiment on something new when it comes to their kids education.
ETB is the new name for the VEC, well known for secondary schools but not for primary.
ESI has a website; http://www.educationalsociety.ie/

so this ESI seem to be a superkids! school

seems to be for kids who want to study more then they are in school, talks about home studies packs, and now they want to open a school for those sort of kids

recedite

Yes, they say their pupils are extremely happy and successful.
I'm not sure what school they are talking about though, or whether they even have one.

Hesh's Umpire

expectationlost wrote: »

http://193.178.1.238/DDebate.aspx?F=...&Ex=2259#N2259 2009


Quote:
I take it that the Deputy is seeking copies of each catchment area map in the country.

By way of general background information, catchment boundaries have their origins in the establishment of free post primary education in the late 1960’s.

For planning purposes, the country was divided into about 300 geographic districts, each with several primary schools feeding into a post primary education centre with one or more post primary schools. The intention was that these defined districts would facilitate the orderly planning of school provision and accommodation needs. They also facilitated the provision of a nationwide school transport service, enabling children from remote areas to get to their nearest school.

In view of the number of catchment area maps involved, the Deputy will understand that it would be a major logistical exercise to collate and send all of these maps to him. However, if the Deputy has a particular area in mind I will arrange to have the map forwarded to him.



here's children ombudsman case study with more detail

http://www.oco.ie/complaints/investi...transport.html


Quote:
The issue of which was the correct map to be used in 2005 could have been determined conclusively if the Planning Section of the Department of Education and Science had furnished the Ombudsman for Children’s Office with a copy of a master map to include all catchment boundaries which was identical to that held by the relevant Bus Éireann office or that which was in place in the Local VEC office in 2005, or as near to identical in so much as the variation was negligible.

The Department of Education and Science did not supply a map to meet this standard as required. The map provided to this Office by the Planning Section in June 2006:
1. is different to what is currently being used by Bus Éireann and the VEC;
2. is questionable as to its suitability as it appears to be incomplete;
3. appears to be a large scale map scaled on a ratio of approximately 1:62500 and, as such, does not provide the required detail to administer such a scheme effectively and accurately; and
4. contains excessively thick boundaries for the purposes of clarity and accuracy.

Just to clarify that all this stuff is outdated. The catchment boundaries are no longer used to determine school transport eligibility. A strict distance criteria applies.

Hotblack Desiato

National Schools giving phone numbers to priests, parents getting calls from priests asking why their child is opting out of communion and to 'reflect on their lives'.

You couldn't make this up - could the RCC be more arrogant and patronising if it tried?

swampgas

ninja900 wrote: »

National Schools giving phone numbers to priests, parents getting calls from priests asking why their child is opting out of communion and to 'reflect on their lives'.

You couldn't make this up - could the RCC be more arrogant and patronising if it tried?

This might make some non-religious parents re-consider whether faking it as Catholics and going down the baptism route to get their kids into schools really is the easiest option in the long run.

clairefontaine

swampgas wrote: »

This might make some non-religious parents re-consider whether faking it as Catholics and going down the baptism route to get their kids into schools really is the easiest option in the long run.

I don't think you should have to be religious yourself to get your child first holy communion. In fact I find it quite imposing and cultish in attitude. If you have already gone through catechism etc, and choose to reject it yourself, that does not mean you can't also offer your child catechism, giving them the opportunity to know it and then later accept it or reject it later.

Obliq

clairefontaine wrote: »

I don't think you should have to be religious yourself to get your child first holy communion. In fact I find it quite imposing and cultish in attitude. If you have already gone through catechism etc, and choose to reject it yourself, that does not mean you can't also offer your child catechism, giving them the opportunity to know it and then later accept it or reject it later.

Well fine, but don't you think the parents should be committed enough to the process to teach them at home or bring them to extra-curricular classes for catechism, etc.? Instead of the current state of affairs where ALL children's education, while attending their local RCC NS, is negatively affected because of the time spent on this, and where children of different beliefs are left in limbo.

Bannasidhe

clairefontaine wrote: »

I don't think you should have to be religious yourself to get your child first holy communion. In fact I find it quite imposing and cultish in attitude. If you have already gone through catechism etc, and choose to reject it yourself, that does not mean you can't also offer your child catechism, giving them the opportunity to know it and then later accept it or reject it later.

Or you could allow them to wait until they are old enough to make an informed decision.

clairefontaine

Obliq wrote: »

Well fine, but don't you think the parents should be committed enough to the process to teach them at home or bring them to extra-curricular classes for catechism, etc.? Instead of the current state of affairs where ALL children's education, while attending their local RCC NS, is negatively affected because of the time spent on this, and where children of different beliefs are left in limbo.

It depends on how seriously you want to take it.

I think religion should be extra curricular for sure.

But I sent my little one to Sunday school and they want the parents to do group prayer, and the way I feel about it is that no, I paid my dues, secondly I fundamentally disagree with how you they are going about this, and thirdly no one should force an adult into catechism when they already had it. I'm not a child. So I pulled him out. They can stuff it.

If you can't cherry pick, then you are a fundamentalist.

clairefontaine

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Or you could allow them to wait until they are old enough to make an informed decision.

Hearts and minds, isn't that how they operate?

Bannasidhe

clairefontaine wrote: »

Hearts and minds, isn't that how they operate?

and fear. :mad:

clairefontaine

Bannasidhe wrote: »

and fear. :mad:

Lol. They never scared me. I remember first communion class and preparing for first confession. I suspected that this was a way for the priest to get to hear all the secrets of the neighbourhood.

Seriously I did not buy a word of it at the time.

recedite

clairefontaine wrote: »

I think religion should be extra curricular for sure.
But I sent my little one to Sunday school and they want the parents to do group prayer, and the way I feel about it is that no, I paid my dues, secondly I fundamentally disagree with how you they are going about this, and thirdly no one should force an adult into catechism when they already had it. I'm not a child. So I pulled him out.

Sunday school is presumably held in a church and is completely separate to national school.
I'm surprised you are willing to make your child attend these extra curricular group sessions, but you won't attend the adult group session yourself.

clairefontaine

recedite wrote: »

Sunday school is presumably held in a church and is completely separate to national school.
I'm surprised you are willing to make your child attend these extra curricular group sessions, but you won't attend the adult group session yourself.

I already went to school. Do you want me to repeat first grade too?

Anyhow I pulled him also because I didn't like the instruction. It may as well have been the Moonies.

kylith

clairefontaine wrote: »

I don't think you should have to be religious yourself to get your child first holy communion. In fact I find it quite imposing and cultish in attitude. If you have already gone through catechism etc, and choose to reject it yourself, that does not mean you can't also offer your child catechism, giving them the opportunity to know it and then later accept it or reject it later.

In order to do communion the child has to be baptised. If you baptise them you are removing their option to join a religion of their choosing, or not, when they are older.

clairefontaine

kylith wrote: »

In order to do communion the child has to be baptised. If you baptise them you are removing their option to join a religion of their choosing, or not, when they are older.

No you're not.

Whether your baptised or not you still have to go through a conversion process.

Delirium

A New Problem in Ireland: Where to Find a Non-Catholic School?

DUBLIN—Sarah Lennon’s son Ethan is just 7 weeks old, and she’s already stressing out about his applications for primary schools. A lapsed Catholic, she hopes to land him a spot at a sought-after multi-denominational school in suburban Dublin—one of few alternatives to the Church-run schools in her neighborhood.

“It’s quite urgent to have our name down early and have the Catholic school here as a back up,” Lennon said. “But the Catholic school may not admit our son, unless we have his form in early, because he won’t be baptized.”

Lennon is among a growing number of Irish parents who no longer identify with the Catholic Church and struggle to find schools that don’t clash with their convictions. In Ireland—once considered the most Catholic country in the world—the Catholic Church runs more than 90 percent of all public schools. Other religious groups operate another 6 percent. But Ireland’s religiosity has waned in recent years, amid changing demographics, rising secularism and reports of Church sexual abuse and cover-ups.

Weekly church attendance among Irish Catholics dropped from more than 90 percent to 30 percent in the past four decades. Those in Ireland who identify as religious plummeted from 69 percent in 2005 to just 47 percent last year, according to a WIN-Gallup International poll. And the number of people who chose “no religion” in the last census soared, making non-believers the second largest group in the nation.

These changes are starting to crack the Catholic Church’s monopoly on Irish education, but not quickly enough to meet growing parental demand for school diversity.

full article in link above

lazygal

clairefontaine wrote: »

No you're not.

Whether your baptised or not you still have to go through a conversion process.

If you're baptised catholic the church sees you as a catholic forever, hence the fact you can't do count me out any more.

swampgas

koth wrote: »

A New Problem in Ireland: Where to Find a Non-Catholic School?

I don't remember seeing any TDs getting involved in this - are they all keeping their heads down like they did on abortion? Anyone seen any news items on this that I might have missed?

It strikes me that this is an ideal issue for parents to bring to their TDs.

kylith

clairefontaine wrote: »

No you're not.

Whether your baptised or not you still have to go through a conversion process.

What branch of Christianity is this? I don't recall any kind of conversion process in Catholicism.

robindch

swampgas wrote: »

I don't remember seeing any TDs getting involved in this - are they all keeping their heads down like they did on abortion?

I can't imagine there's much stomach in Leinster House for another pitched battle against religious interests.

Cabaal

clairefontaine wrote: »

I already went to school. Do you want me to repeat first grade too?

So the way you see it is, you've done the mass/learning stuff as a child its not your job to be involved in your child's religious upbringing directly.

Don't you agree to raise your child in the faith when they get baptized though?

If this is the case then its no different to any parent that pushes their kid through communion etc, but hates going to mass with their kid.

You're either practicing the faith and what it requires you to do or you're not, if you don't like practicing the faith then why force your child into it too?

Bannasidhe

kylith wrote: »

What branch of Christianity is this? I don't recall any kind of conversion process in Catholicism.

Ex Sister-in-law went through a conversion process to become a Catholic.

I must admit, I was a ickle bit responsible

swampgas

robindch wrote: »

I can't imagine there's much stomach in Leinster House for another pitched battle against religious interests.

Oh sure, the government is definitely going to drag its feet on it.

I was wondering if enough parents raised it with their local TDs, whether they would see any mileage in voicing support for educational reform. There will be some tough battles fought in the next election, if a TD thought there was enough support for it they might consider it something to give them an edge, especially in large multi-seater constituencies. This looks like one of those issues which isn't going to go away any time soon, so jumping on the bandwagon early could have its advantages.

I won't be holding my breath though.

PopePalpatine

It might be the only way for Labour to rise in the polls.

kylith

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ex Sister-in-law went through a conversion process to become a Catholic.

I must admit, I was a ickle bit responsible

I'm curious how you were responsible.

I can certainly accept that there would be a conversion process for an adult converting to Catholicism, but not for a child. Presumably the equivalent would be Confirmation, where you confirm the promises which were made on your behalf at baptism.

Anyway, the upshot is that baptising your child into Catholicism means signing them up for life, and taking away their ability to choose whether or not to join the Catholic church. AFAIK conversion to another religion is the only way to get out of the RCC, and even then I'd imagine that they just write "Lapsed)" beside your name.

Morag

kylith wrote: »

What branch of Christianity is this? I don't recall any kind of conversion process in Catholicism.

There is on for adults it's very involved.

lazygal

And adults choose to do it.