School patronage

expectationlost

State-funded schools 'discriminating against non-baptised children'

Dr Frank Hurl of Catholic Comment said that the only time it becomes an issue is if a school is oversubscribed.

"I think the only time that a baptism cert would come into play is when there's oversubscription in a particular area, and that's really an issue for the Department of Education rather than the local school," he said.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/state-funded-schools-discriminating-against-non-baptised-children-669105.html

oh that's okay then.. that's what you call discrimination mr, preferences for religious in state funded schools

recedite

Dr Frank Hurl of Catholic Comment said that the only time it becomes an issue is if a school is oversubscribed.

What a dickhead.
Isn't that what they told Rosa Parks back in the day in Alabama. Stop complaining, you only have to get off the bus when its "oversubscribed" by white people. At other times you can have a seat.

expectationlost

http://www.newstalk.com/POLL:-Would-you-baptise-your-child-for-the-sole-purpose-of-getting-them-into-a-certain-school
brian whiteside and mr catholic comment were on newstalk breakfast http://www.newstalk.com/player/shows/Breakfast/5/17401/26th_March_2015_-_Breakfast_Part_4 at 11mins


talks about a catholic school that have many different children of many religions atttending, and they did a project on all different religions, but do you rekcon they did a project on atheism ?

frank may be leaving out that there might be catholics from further away getting in in front of the non-reilgious child


brian whiteside says they are criticsing the dept of ed not churches, they have all the cso stats and civil servants to figure it out

expectationlost

Non-religious parents are being discriminated against by our outdated school system http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/baptism-schools-admissions-ireland-2013938-Mar2015/

In an extract from the report of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (Geneva, July 2008) it noted with concern that the vast majority of Ireland’s primary schools are privately run denominational schools that have adopted a religious integrated curriculum, thus depriving many parents and children who so wish to have access to secular primary education.

brian whiteside director of humanist association writes as part of his campaign, again this is not political....?

expectationlost

Save National Schools ~ An attempt to subvert the Constitution https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2015/04/09/save-national-schools-an-attempt-to-subvert-the-constitution/ via Dialogue Ireland The Minister for Education must be stopped from signing Deeds of Variation in National Schools. There should be a detailed debate about this matter in the Oireachtas before any changes are considered.

Note: All Catholic primary schools established before 1997 are subject to a lease signed when the
school was set up. This lease included an undertaking that the school would be managed in
accordance with the Rules for National Schools.
In 1997, the patrons and the Minister for Education agreed (following discussions with the
education
partners) to vary the terms of the existing leases. The new document (Deed of Variation), which
supplements the original lease, provides that the school will be managed in accordance with the
rules laid down by the Minister for Education and in accordance with a Roman Catholic Ethos.
The new agreement will also be used in the case of all Catholic primary schools established in the
future.

https://dialogueireland.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/150407-deed-of-variation.pdf

so this started in 1997?

I think gov going to cement religion into national schools, so the buildings can't be used by non-religious if the population requires it

a PQ was asked about it recently https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-03-31a.1262&s=deed+of+variation#g1263.q

Secretary Generals speech http://education.ie/en/Press-Events/Speeches/2015-Speeches/Sp-%202015-%2003-13.html

although there was some change already in 1997
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2005-01-26.3158.0&s=%22deed+of+variation%22#g3160.0.r

not sure what this is all about yet

expectationlost

List of Organisations Date Contacted Date of Reply Registered

Humanist Association of Ireland 07/04/2015 08/04/2015 No

http://www.sipo.gov.ie/Website/en/Reports/Register-of-Third-Parties/

I just don't get it SIPO

magicbastarder

i had an argument with my folks (mid 60s) about this recently. their position was informed by their (otherwise actually fairly reasonable) PP's argument that the catholic schools should give up religious education when the school attached to the mosque in clonskeagh gave up teaching the kids in islamic belief; a 'if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for us' position.
i went close to apoplectic with amazement that he'd missed the point by such a staggeringly wide margin. i think the sincerity of my indignation actually managed to convince them of the folly of his argument.

Hotblack Desiato

expectationlost wrote: »

Save National Schools ~ An attempt to subvert the Constitution https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2015/04/09/save-national-schools-an-attempt-to-subvert-the-constitution/ via Dialogue Ireland The Minister for Education must be stopped from signing Deeds of Variation in National Schools. There should be a detailed debate about this matter in the Oireachtas before any changes are considered.

I think gov going to cement religion into national schools, so the buildings can't be used by non-religious if the population requires it

a PQ was asked about it recently https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-03-31a.1262&s=deed+of+variation#g1263.q

although there was some change in 1997
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2005-01-26.3158.0&s=%22deed+of+variation%22#g3160.0.r

not sure what this is all about yet

I thought Dialogue Ireland was an anti-cult site and have read some pretty good stuff on it before. But that article reads like Iona mixed in with the Burkes.

Does anybody know wtf Jan O'Sullivan is up to? Does she...? because although I accept that putting kids names onto waiting lists at birth is dreadful, it's the only way non-believers can give themselves any sort of priority to get into an ET ahead of the bouncy castle catholics.

expectationlost

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I thought Dialogue Ireland was an anti-cult site and have read some pretty good stuff on it before. But that article reads like Iona mixed in with the Burkes.

Does anybody know wtf Jan O'Sullivan is up to? Does she...? because although I accept that putting kids names onto waiting lists at birth is dreadful, it's the only way non-believers can give themselves any sort of priority to get into an ET ahead of the bouncy castle catholics.

The end of the Irish State’s commitment to a non-denominational system of national (primary) education using the National School system?

This open letter was sent today by Citizens for Separation of Church and State to the members of the Oireachtas.


http://www.cscs.ie/?p=32

Absolam

expectationlost wrote: »

The end of the Irish State’s commitment to a non-denominational system of national (primary) education using the National School system?
This open letter was sent today by Citizens for Separation of Church and State to the members of the Oireachtas.
http://www.cscs.ie/?page_id=17

Isn't that about abolishing the religious oath of office? What does it have to do with the end of the Irish State’s commitment to a non-denominational system of national (primary) education using the National School system?

Hotblack Desiato

expectationlost wrote: »

The end of the Irish State’s commitment to a non-denominational system of national (primary) education using the National School system?

This open letter was sent today by Citizens for Separation of Church and State to the members of the Oireachtas.


http://www.cscs.ie/?page_id=17

Correct link is here http://www.cscs.ie/?p=32

Disturbing.

expectationlost

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Correct link is here http://www.cscs.ie/?p=32

Disturbing.

sorry thanks.


my confusion is did this not already happen in 1997?

Hotblack Desiato

expectationlost wrote: »

my confusion is did this not already happen in 1997?

I've no idea, but I'd be interested to know, what happened in 1997? do you mean the Michael Woods paedophile bailout?

expectationlost

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I've no idea, but I'd be interested to know, what happened in 1997? do you mean the Michael Woods paedophile bailout?

no that the 'variation of deeds' was changed so the school building could only be used for that religions schooling?

recedite

Most peculiar, but my reading of it is...
The 1997 thing is that older leases did not not specifically say the school would be denominational, just that it would be run in accordance with the Dept of Education rulebook. The rulebook stated that religious education was very important etc. but also that it was to be kept separate from secular education (which latter provision was rarely or never honoured). Also it was just assumed in earlier times that whichever religion owned the school building was the one that controlled the religious teaching.
At some point in the 1990s (presumably with the rise of ET schools) it occurred to the owners of the schools that it might be possible for the Dept. to "re-allocate" the patronage of their school to a different patron.
This could be a legal nightmare if the religion refused to co-operate, akin to a divorced couple dividing up their assets. The religion might have owned the original building, but the Dept. might have built up the size of the school via numerous building capitation grants over the years.
The revised lease is guaranteeing that the school patronage cannot change without the prior agreement of the religion. Therefore the religion keeps control of the state's capital investment in perpetuity. I'm guessing that the state was never going to get into that confrontational situation anyway. So this doesn't make much practical difference. On the other hand they are now giving away a bargaining chip, apparently for free.

But the "nuclear option" is still available to the state; ie withdraw public funding from a school patron they don't like, thereby making it's school fees too expensive to be viable. So even if all denominational schools had these leases, if it wanted to, the state could still "suggest" at a later stage that half of them be "donated" to the state for a nominal sum in return for public funding of the other half.

Its possible that RCC has given some secret undertaking to the Dept. that they will hand over some schools in return for the concession, but we are not told this.

shruikan2553

recedite wrote: »

Most peculiar, but my reading of it is...
The 1997 thing is that older leases did not not specifically say the school would be denominational, just that it would be run in accordance with the Dept of Education rulebook. The rulebook stated that religious education was very important etc. but also that it was to be kept separate from secular education (which latter provision was rarely or never honoured). Also it was just assumed in earlier times that whichever religion owned the school building was the one that controlled the religious teaching.
At some point in the 1990s (presumably with the rise of ET schools) it occurred to the owners of the schools that it might be possible for the Dept. to "re-allocate" the patronage of their school to a different patron.
This could be a legal nightmare if the religion refused to co-operate, akin to a divorced couple dividing up their assets. The religion might have owned the original building, but the Dept. might have built up the size of the school via numerous building capitation grants over the years.
The revised lease is guaranteeing that the school patronage cannot change without the prior agreement of the religion. Therefore the religion keeps control of the state's capital investment in perpetuity. I'm guessing that the state was never going to get into that confrontational situation anyway. So this doesn't make much practical difference. On the other hand they are now giving away a bargaining chip, apparently for free.

But the "nuclear option" is still available to the state; ie withdraw public funding from a school patron they don't like, thereby making it's school fees too expensive to be viable. So even if all denominational schools had these leases, if it wanted to, the state could still "suggest" at a later stage that half of them be "donated" to the state for a nominal sum in return for public funding of the other half.

Its possible that RCC has given some secret undertaking to the Dept. that they will hand over some schools in return for the concession, but we are not told this.

It's an option but political suicide. Reduce funding for a school and you have the religious claiming that camps are next and everyone else about damage to the children's education.

expectationlost

3 pqs on this, deeds of variation thing

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-04-15a.1967&s=%22School+Patronage%22#g1969.r

doesn't really answer the question, there was a change of deeds in the 90's based on state investment in the buildings and its run out?

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-04-15a.2020&s=%22School+Patronage%22#g2022.r
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-04-15a.2063&s=%22School+Patronage%22#g2065.r

PopePalpatine

Is anyone listening to The Last Word on Today FM right now? Aron Ra is discussing religion in schools with the Head of Religious Education at Mater Dei.

silverharp

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Is anyone listening to The Last Word on Today FM right now? Aron Ra is discussing religion in schools with the Head of Religious Education at Mater Dei.

http://www.todayfm.com/player/listen_back/7/19789/22nd_April_2015_-_The_Last_Word_with_Matt_Cooper_Part_2


link above about 35min in . it was too short an interview to be of much use and I'd say Aron is more used to dealing with evangelicals than soft spoken nothing to see here catholics.

recedite

silverharp wrote: »

http://www.todayfm.com/player/listen_back/7/19789/22nd_April_2015_-_The_Last_Word_with_Matt_Cooper_Part_2


link above about 35min in .

(Its on the 2nd segment of the show)
I thought Amon Ra, Not The Sun God did a good interview. Obviously if you invite an American guest you are going to get something of an American perspective.
His Irish opponent/balance was Dr Gareth Byrne, whose tactic was to use a softly spoken "we're all much more reasonable over here". He came unstuck though when the interviewer asked about non-catholic kids in primary schools. At first he said they don't have to attend the faith formation classes, but then he had to admit they would be sent to the back of the class and given extra work to do.
When I was at school, that was considered a form of punishment!
Dr Byrne was very honest though, to be fair.

expectationlost

FF Ard Clar education motion

123.That this Ard Fheis supports equalisation of funding for voluntary secondary schools to bring them into line with state schools and thus ensure equality for all students.
Fermoyle Cumann, Clare CDC

https://www.scribd.com/doc/262732869/Clar-2015-An-Ireland-for-All

like to find the detail of this

lazygal

It's a muddled motion. There are no State schools in Ireland. All operate under the patronage model, which means the State pays for the majority of costs for most schools (salaries, buildings etc) and then there is a top up from outside sources like parents. When I was in secondary school a voluntary contribution was expected and there was a fundraising drive to fund 10% of the cost of a new building.

I think this motion essentially means they want more funding for religious schools, such as those catering for minority faiths, to make them the same as VEC/ETB schools. I plan on reminding any canvassers in the local elections that there are no State schools in Ireland and asking how they would change that.

shruikan2553

lazygal wrote: »

It's a muddled motion. There are no State schools in Ireland. All operate under the patronage model, which means the State pays for the majority of costs for most schools (salaries, buildings etc) and then there is a top up from outside sources like parents. When I was in secondary school a voluntary contribution was expected and there was a fundraising drive to fund 10% of the cost of a new building.

I think this motion essentially means they want more funding for religious schools, such as those catering for minority faiths, to make them the same as VEC/ETB schools. I plan on reminding any canvassers in the local elections that there are no State schools in Ireland and asking how they would change that.

Isnt 10% what they have to pay themselves while the government pay the other 90?

lazygal

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Isnt 10% what they have to pay themselves while the government pay the other 90?

Yes, 10% for salaries, and the schools make up the rest. I guess that's what my parents' 'voluntary contributions' were for.

So I guess the FF party wants 100% of funding for religious schools to come from the State, while presumably allowing such schools to discriminate against the children of those taxpayers.

I know its Wiki but it has a breakdown of secondary schools:

• Voluntary secondary schools, or just "secondary schools", are owned and managed by religious communities or private organisations. The state funds 90% of teachers' salaries and 95% of other costs. Such schools cater for 57% of secondary pupils.
• Vocational schools are owned and managed by Education and Training Boards, with 93% of their costs met by the state. These schools educate 28% of secondary pupils.
• Comprehensive schools or community schools were established in the 1960s, often by amalgamating voluntary secondary and vocational schools. They are fully funded by the state, and run by local boards of management. Nearly 15% of secondary pupils attend such schools.
• Gaelcholáistes are the second-level schools for Irish language medium education sector in English-speaking communities. Approximately 3% of secondary students attend these schools. Please see Gaelscoileanna for the Irish language primary level sector. There are 368 Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholáistí in Ireland.
• Grind Schools are fee paying privately run schools outside the state sector, who tend to run only Senior Cycle 5th and 6th year as well as a one-year repeat Leaving Certificate programme.

recedite

The "voluntary secondary schools" are denominational faith schools.
A lot of them are known to most people as "private schools". They may or may not charge fees, but they reserve the right to exclude/discriminate against certain types of people in their admission policies, and to use school time for their specific religious indoctrination.

IMO the 90-95% funding is far too much for them. It should be on a sliding scale of 0% to about 80% depending on how exclusionary they are, and how suitable/unsuitable their practices are to a pupil of a different (or no) faith.

shruikan2553

recedite wrote: »

The "voluntary secondary schools" are denominational faith schools.
A lot of them are known to most people as "private schools". They may or may not charge fees, but they reserve the right to exclude/discriminate against certain types of people in their admission policies, and to use school time for their specific religious indoctrination.

IMO the 90-95% funding is far too much for them. It should be on a sliding scale of 0% to about 80% depending on how exclusionary they are, and how suitable/unsuitable their practices are to a pupil of a different (or no) faith.

And the rest has to be actually paid by the patron rather than getting the parents to pay.

Hotblack Desiato

The religious and lay of the land: school ethos in flux

The presence of religious personnel in Irish schools has been diminishing for decades, falling from 3,700 at postprimary level in 1970 to just 30 in full-time teaching positions today. However, while their day-to-day involvement in schools has all but disappeared, their influence has not.

Following a period of appraisal and consultation during the 1990s, religious orders began to establish trusts (predominantly comprising lay people) to retain and further the denominational character of their schools, which account for about 96 per cent of all State-funded schools at primary level and 56 per cent at post-primary level. That responsibility has since been enshrined in the Education Act of 1998.

Nothing atall atall to do with religious orders getting sued...

As part of Fr Richard Byrne’s PhD research, he surveyed students in five case-study schools and found that, while most believed in God, weekly religious practice was extremely low. The 37 principals interviewed said parents very rarely approach them with questions or concerns about the religious upbringing of their children.

So why is so much valulable class time spent on religion when hardly any pupils or parents really want it?

If freedom of religion is the basic tangible in play, Daly says, then the freedom of non-religious parents and teachers who may be put in a position of uncertainty or inferiority is just as relevant. Having to baptise your child or feign a religious belief to secure a school place, he says, amounts to an interference of choice.

expectationlost

a voter advice application has been developed for carlow kilkenny
labour candidate willie quinns answer to

Too many primary schools are under religious patronage

The candidate did not answer the question.

School users and parents should decide what is best for their school. As result of former Minister Ruairi Quinn's policy changes, parents and pupils now have a choice in a lot of areas as to what school to attend according to that school's particular patronage.

a party line man in all his answer,do you think ths is true nationally, is it even the case in Carlow Kilkenny?


carlow primary schools
http://www.education.ie/en/Find-a-School/School-List/?level=Primary&geo=Carlow&ethos=-1&lang=-1&gender=-1 a score of primaries 1 ET

kilkenny primary schools http://www.education.ie/en/Find-a-School/School-List/?level=Primary&geo=Kilkenny&ethos=-1&lang=-1&gender=-1 a score of primaries 1 ET

Hotblack Desiato

pupils now have a choice in a lot of areas as to what school to attend according to that school's particular patronage

Böllöcks

lazygal

There's plenty of pointless duplication of schools on patronage grounds, but what if you don't want your child educated by those patrons?