School patronage

expectationlost

Jan O'Sullivan A small number of deeds of variation were signed prior to 2006. Since that time there have been ongoing discussions with the relevant patron bodies in relation to the wording of the Deeds of Variation, and no deeds have been signed in the interim.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-05-19a.1242&s=%22School+Patronage%22

PopePalpatine

Don't you just hate legalese?

Hotblack Desiato

Lot of talk in the media in the last couple of days about how the referendum won't affect education.

So these unelected, unaccountable, state-funded 'patrons' still get to lie to kids, tell them about 'traditional marriage', no divorce, no contraception, gayness is a sin, etc. etc.


Great :mad:

expectationlost

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/ireland.same.sex.marriage.vote.catholic.church.needs.a.reality.check.says.archbishop/54560.htm qouting RTE interview on 6.1 yesterday

He said: "I ask myself, most of these young people who voted yes are products of our Catholic school system for 12 years. I'm saying there's a big challenge there to see how we get across the message of the Church."

martin seems the one most open to releasing buildings for others to use but it hasn't helped that much yet, he often said whatever are we teaching them we're not teaching them our values, indicating that we may have that crunch of catholic schools becoming more catholic at a point when we still have lots of non- /or pretend /catholics in their schools.

barretsimpson

expectationlost wrote: »

martin seems the one most open to releasing buildings for others to use but it hasn't helped that much yet, he often said whatever are we teaching them we're not teaching them our values, indicating that we may have that crunch of catholic schools becoming more catholic at a point when we still have lots of non- /or pretend /catholics in their schools.

Quinn's plan was to allow the majority of parents in a school to decide if it should remain Catholic or not. Martin was only too happy to oblige, and between the two of them they were confident of off loading a load of "Catholic" schools. The cultural Catholic parents of Ireland, who are no more Catholic that the man in the moon, i.e. the usual census ticker types, however, didn't play predictable ball as usual, and voted mostly to remain "Catholic" schools, when the schools are anything but. There's a silver lining in the cloud though, whatever the replacement for "Catholic" schools, and as bad as they are, I wouldn't let the Irish state educate my dog, never mind my child. Parents, religious or not, if they have any sense, need to retain control of their own schools if they value their kids education.

SpaceTime

I'm confronting this straight on at the moment myself.

One of my very close relatives had a child recently. The couple are an Irish atheist and a person from another country who would have grown up without any religious beliefs really at all and if you go back into their family further, they're not catholic / christian by a long shot - totally different culture.

Anyway they decided, logically enough, not to baptise their child. The amount of pressure they're coming under is insane!

We've had people saying things like "Oh you're denying your poor little girl the right to her day out" (communion)
You're going to make her "different"
"She's already different enough" (thinly veiled racism)
"You're being awkward" (ehmm. yes.. just pretend you're both catholics and go with the flow?! That's not at all completely hypocritical.)

Several patronising relatives have also pointed out how disappointed they are that they're not keeping "family traditions".
They even had a christianising robe sent to them with a mass card!

They're in an urban area, so there is a choice of schools, but they're quite limited relative to the choice if you were Catholic.

We checked enrolment policies and they're all basically along the lines of :

"Welcome to the Holy Stone of Clonrichert and Passion of St Tibulus National School :

We welcome all children, but Catholics first.

If you're not a Catholic, you can be vaguely tolerated in our school although we do have to accommodate all of our lovely catholic children first before we can find a place for a big smelly heathen like yourself.
Have you considered just going back to wherever it was you came from?"

To my relative's partner this is coming across not only as weird, she's interpreting it as xenophobic.
Her immediate reaction was is this because I'm (insert nationality).

What she sees is that she's living in Ireland, she's quite happy to embrace being Irish, participate in Irish society, be a part of the community - but she's not prepared to just switch over to Catholicism and considers it pretty much similar to what certain extreme Islamic countries do, only a bit more 'softly softly'.

The sad reality of the situation is Ireland has allowed a system to develop where we have no public schools.

They've joined an ET startup group, but it's kinda crazy that parents are being put through this.

Do they get a tax break on the % of their money that goes towards funding schools their kids can't use?
Not a hope!

...

Also, in the context of the recent referendum.

What if your kid's LGBT? It's not only possible, it's relatively common ... I don't really want to see a situation where I'd have to send an kid I may have or any of my cousins to a school that would be able to legally discriminate against them or at the very best pretend they don't exist.

This isn't a minor issue either...

No other aspect of Irish society or services can do that, so why should a school be able to get away with discrimination like that against either students or staff?

How is this acceptable in a republic?!
Do we even know what the word "republic" means?

barretsimpson

The enrolment scaremongering is a load of propaganda balls, our local "Catholic" school has a load of non baptised children from all nationalities and walks of life.

Don't baptise anyone just for the sake of it.

I know oaths mean very little anymore to most people, but can you really stand up and say this on the day with sincerity ?


V. Do you reject Satan?
R. I do.
V. And all his works?
R. I do.
V. And all his empty promises?
R. I do.
V. Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth?
R. I do.
V. Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?
R. I do.
V. Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?
R. I do.
V. God, the all-powerful Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has given us a new birth by water and the Holy Spirit, and forgiven all our sins. May he also keep us faithful to our Lord Jesus Christ for ever and ever.
R. Amen.

SpaceTime

barretsimpson wrote: »

The enrolment scaremongering is a load of propaganda balls, our local "Catholic" school has a load of non baptised children from all nationalities and walks of life.

Don't baptise anyone just for the sake of it.

I know oaths mean very little anymore to most people, but can you really stand up and say this on the day with sincerity ?

They've no intentions of baptising for the sake of it.

As much a propaganda / balls it might be, it's potentially a major issue.

I don't want my relative sitting in the back of some classroom being excluded and that seems to be what happens.
I know my own experience of school here was highly variable - ranging from the odd dogmatic teacher to far more liberal ones.

I 'came out' as an atheist in school and got torn apart for it though which wasn't very nice. I'd a priest actually insult me, my family and my whole upbringing. It was very offensive to put it mildly.

I also remember as a kid here in the 1990s being told that if I didn't go to mass every week that my parents weren't fit to be parents. That I couldn't go to secondary school as I wouldn't be let in if I didn't make my confirmation and even that I could be put into care as my parents were neglecting my 'spiritual needs' (By an old priest who had it in for me). This guy was a bit senile but my mother nearly hit the roof when she found out why I wouldn't go to school anymore.

I was faking stomach aches, refusing to get out of bed, doing runners on the way to school and not turning up etc etc.

barretsimpson

SpaceTime wrote: »

They've no intentions of baptising for the sake of it.

As much a propaganda / balls it might be, it's potentially a major issue.

I don't want my relative sitting in the back of some classroom being excluded and that seems to be what happens.
I know my own experience of school here was highly variable - ranging from the odd dogmatic teacher to far more liberal ones.

I 'came out' as an atheist in school and got torn apart for it though which wasn't very nice. I'd a priest actually insult me, my family and my whole upbringing. It was very offensive to put it mildly.

I also remember as a kid here in the 1990s being told that if I didn't go to mass every week that my parents weren't fit to be parents. That I couldn't go to secondary school as I wouldn't be let in if I didn't make my confirmation and even that I could be put into care as my parents were neglecting my 'spiritual needs' (By an old priest who had it in for me). This guy was a bit senile but my mother nearly hit the roof when she found out why I wouldn't go to school anymore.

I was faking stomach aches, refusing to get out of bed, doing runners on the way to school and not turning up etc etc.

No baptism cert or lack off will prevent any of that.
Our local "Catholic" school has a load of happy, and non baptised, kids.
Children should not be baptised as Catholics when they are not. Don't listen to the bull.

robindch

Can't remember if I posted this, don't think I did, but for complicated reasons to do entirely with my little Snowflake's wishes to see what went on in a church, we decided to drop by a local church for the communion service for the ten out of thirty kids undergoing it in her class. All the relevant kids were kitted out in their best, smiling, surrounded by friends and relatives. Snowflake and I, and some other non-religious friends, standing out somewhat by our less than stellar clothes and bemused air. Two Fr Ted moments though:

Priest: OK, children, you have to tell Jesus that you're his friend, so say "Jesus, you're my friend" and wave your arms up like this (does a Nazi salute)
Kids: Jesus, you're my friend (kids do Nazi salute)
Priest: I can't hear you
Kids: Jesus, You're My Friend! (kids do Nazi salute again)
Priest: Parents, I can't hear you!
Kids: JESUS, YOU'RE MY FRIEND! (kids do Nazi salute a third time; parents do not do a Nazi salute)

And just after the communion itself:

Priest: Children, close your eyes now because Jesus has come.

Snowflake hasn't asked to return to a church.

robindch

The Board of Directors of Educate Together has decided that it will no longer describe itself as a ‘multi-denominational’ organisation but will use the term ‘Equality-based’ instead:

http://www.educatetogether.ie/media/national-news/important-step-educate-together

expectationlost

robindch wrote: »

The Board of Directors of Educate Together has decided that it will no longer describe itself as a ‘multi-denominational’ organisation but will use the term ‘Equality-based’ instead:

http://www.educatetogether.ie/media/national-news/important-step-educate-together

are they going to retract this statement

The Educate Together model of schooling satisfies all the requirements envisaged by the UN Human Rights Committee. Educate Together has no affiliation to any religious organisation and is thus 'non-denominational'. In the operation of its schools Educate Together respects the background of all children equally and does not promote any particular religious or other beliefs.

http://www.educatetogether.ie/media/national-news/un-calls-for-diversity

or is just a continuation of muddying waters with new PR spin

lazygal

Under rule 68 Children coming to know God and religion vivifying the whole school day are legal requirements for Irish schools. Either educate together are doing religion in some form that satisfies that requirement or they are ignoring the rule and there's a don't ask don't tell attitude on the part of educate together and the department.

recedite

I think this is an excellent move by ET. Only a few years ago the Rule 68 requirement was taken much more seriously by Dept. of Education, and any school not providing some sort of religious indoctrination during school hours was at a real risk of being denied public funding. No school could describe itself as "non-denominational" for that reason.
Gradually ET managed to negotiate permission from the dept. to hold the indoctrination/specific faith formation classes only as an after school activity.

It has reached the stage now (following criticism from UN Human Rights Committee that we have no publicly funded non-denominational primary schools) that ET could probably reclassify itself as a non-denominational school, and get away with it. But why bother?

Now we have ET refusing to identify in "denominational" terms at all, which is much better.
"Denominationalness", as a concept, is only a construct of the religious. Why play by their rules at all? Why define something that is essentially non-religious in any religious terms at all? Calling it an Equality Based school is a stroke of genius, because who can argue with equality? Let those schools who practice religious discrimination in their admission and employment policies call themselves Non-Equality schools, if they like.

Those ETB and RC schools which do not practice religious discrimination in the admissions, but which continue to teach a RC faith formation program to pupils in the full knowledge that the majority of those pupils are not even RC, can continue to call themselves "multidenominational". But now the meaning of that terminology, as commonly perceived, will change.

Hotblack Desiato

barretsimpson wrote: »

The enrolment scaremongering is a load of propaganda balls

That is FAR from being the case everywhere, some areas have lots of school places, others have real shortages

Areas which are seen as 'desirable' have kids from outside the area with the right piece of religious paper jumping the queue and forcing out local kids without the right piece of religious paper.

A lot of people who say they "need" to baptise their child to get a school place are wrong, but they're not all wrong.

Delirium

Legislation on school and hospital staff to be amended

Legislation to prevent schools and hospitals discriminating against current or future employees because of their sexuality will be in place by summer.

Minister of State for Equality Aodhán Ó Ríordáin said he is working hard to ensure the Employment Equality Act will be amended by September, when the new school term starts.

“Recently the Irish National Teachers’ Organisation had an event in Áras an Uachtaráin where they met President Michael D Higgins. A number of people stepped out of the picture with the President because they were worried at being identified as gay teachers. They fear it would impact on their employment prospects or felt it might go against them in their workplace.

“So while we rightly celebrate marriage equality, there is still some uncertainty and a certain chill factor with gay and lesbian people, especially in schools.”

expectationlost

SW wrote: »

Legislation on school and hospital staff to be amended

another promise from Aodhain O'Riordan he's full of them.

Hotblack Desiato

expectationlost wrote: »

another promise from Aodhain O'Riordan he's full of them.

The situation with atheist teachers is exactly the same, the truth coming out would render one almost unemployable as a primary teacher in Ireland, and it's not just having to do the religion cert in teacher training college, lie to get the job, or having to lie convincingly to kids day in day out, it's maintaining the facade, being expected to be seen at church, parish events etc. how is this form of legalised discrimination any more justifiable than the one he's saying he'll remove?

And of course the schools will still be able to refuse admission to kids purely on the basis of religion.

Trent Houseboat

Good podcast from the times today featuring Aodhan O'Riordan and John Murray

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/inside-politics

Inside Politics. Equality v Ethos: LGBT Teachers

The removal of the 'chilling effect' of current legistlation on LGBT teachers employed by
religious schools is seen by some as the next step on the march
towards equality, and moves are afoot to make legislative changes. But
how well can the competing rights to equality and religious freedom be
balanced? Hugh is joined by Minister of State for Equality Aodhán Ó
Ríordáin, Iona Institute Chairman and Mater Dei lecturer John Murray
and Ruadhán Mac Cormaic of The Irish Times.

Plus, Ruadhán explains what legislative moves will follow the passing
of the marriage referendum.

Hotblack Desiato

Would the Iona Institute ever f**k off the stage. Have the people of Ireland not suffered enough the last few months?

SpaceTime

Someone highlighted this document to me yesterday:

All I'll say is WOW! WOW! - Just shocked at the content. I cannot believe this is still in force in 2015. It's straight out of the Magdalene Laundries (literally - it even mentions laundry as a subject!!)

Dates from 1965 but looks like it was written by someone in Dickens's era.

I really thought I was looking at some historical archive material, but it appears to be the current rules for Primary Schools in Ireland.

https://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Information/Rules-and-Programmes-for-Schools/rules_for_national_schools_7_13.pdf

This archaic, badly scanned, theocratic, sexist nonsense is still what are schools are running under.

Go to page 38, rule 68

"Secular Instruction" also mentions Laundry (Girls) as a *subject*.

Why are we still using such a ridiculous document.

Full set of documents:
https://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Information/Rules-and-Programmes-for-Schools/

It's like a snap shot from about 1847, never mind 1965 when it was published.

To quote the section on religion:

68. Of all the parts of a school curriculum Religious Instruction is by far the most important, as its subject-mater, God's honour and service, includes the proper use of all man's faculties, and affords the most powerful inducements to their proper use. Religious instruction is, therefore, a fundamental part of the school course, and a religious spirit should inform and vivify the whole work of the school.

The teacher should constantly inculcate the practice of charity, justice, truth, parity, patience, temperance, obedience to lawful authority, and all other moral virtues. In this way he will fulfil the primary duty of an educator, the moulding to perfect form of his pupils' character., habituating them to observe, in their relations with God and with their neighbour the laws which God, both directly through dictates of natural reason and through Revelation, and indirectly through the ordnance of lawful authority imposes on mankind.

...

(It gets worse)

69 (1) The religious denomination of each pupil must be entered in the school register and roll-book. This information should be ascertained from the parent (the father, if possible) or guardian of the pupil, where necessary.

(Wow .. even for 1965 that is unbelievably sexist)

You should see the subjects!

Secular Instruction:

Optional subjects:

Drawing, Physical Training, Rural Science or Nature Study, Cookery (Girls), Laundry (Girls) or Domestic Economy (Girls), Manual Instruction (Boys)

Special grants are paid for Cookery, Laundry and Domestic Economy under the terms of rule 147.

....

If this document is still in force, I would actually think the Department of Education needs to be called to task. It's so backwards and so out of date it's actually frightening.

SpaceTime

Honestly though I get fed up with this country. As an atheist, I feel like I'm excluded from my own country.

It's great that we've belatedly moved forward on LGBT rights, but we are stuck in the dark ages when it comes to religion and education.

Why should I, as an Irish citizen, feel like I'm excluded from public services in my own country? It's a total disgrace.

Religious schools, prayers integrated into the Oireachtas and other aspects of government, religious oaths, that I can't without being a total hypocrite, swear that probably exclude me from holding public office.

I shouldn't be going around hiding the fact that I'm an atheist, or feeling bad about it anymore so than I would about being gay.

What am I supposed to do exactly? Just move to a proper country that would actually grant me rights?

Hotblack Desiato

State tells UN that children are refused access to schools only in exceptional cases

This will come as a surprise to any secular and minority religion family whose child has been refused access to their local publicly funded school. Schools in Ireland refuse access because secular families and religious minorities cannot produce a Catholic baptismal certificate, and not because their five year old will undermine the ethos of the school.

SpaceTime

It's quite weird how the state is willing to spin and lie about this.

Nothing changes, feet are dragged, ministers are sidelined...

What exactly happened to Rurairi Quinn for example? The guy was a major champion of open, fair, secular education and a few months as minister and he seems to have been completely neutered by the powers that be.

It's actually bordering on creepy the way the state just locks down and defends these things as if it represents the church and not the people.

I just see a vested interest being put ahead of absolutely everything else.

Hotblack Desiato

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/alan-shatter-law-should-prevent-discrimination-against-those-in-gay-marriage-1.2237806

So gay people will be protected - great - but gay or straight if you're not the 'right' religion or, worse, none at all, then you can fcuk right off... and your kids can feck off too.

Brian Shanahan

SpaceTime wrote: »

What exactly happened to Rurairi Quinn for example? The guy was a major champion of open, fair, secular education and a few months as minister and he seems to have been completely neutered by the powers that be.

As I said a few months ago, Quinn is a windbag, all talk and no action.

You were never going to get movement out of him.

mikhail

SpaceTime wrote: »

... What exactly happened to Rurairi Quinn for example? The guy was a major champion of open, fair, secular education and a few months as minister and he seems to have been completely neutered by the powers that be...

He suggested that the children of people who own farms worth millions of Euros might not be the most useful recipients of university grants. FG likes its farming vote too much not to ****-can him for that.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/farmers-face-up-to-thorny-issue-of-third-level-grants-1.1251294

expectationlost

interesting stats in interesting article in what thought in school, hard to be definite

Religious representatives are also heavily present on boards of management, controlling 92% of primary schools and at least 57% of post-primary schools with significant representation on the boards of the other 43%

. http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/what-will-the-marriage-referendum-mean-for-children-and-schools-333430.html

expectationlost

Catholic Schools Partnership – A process for Understanding, Supporting and Taking Ownership of the characteristic spirit in a Catholic school
http://www.catholicschools.ie/

http://www.catholicschools.ie/2012/04/19/catholic-schools-partnership/ 40 indicators checklist http://www.catholicschools.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/40-indicators-pdf.pdf

about 30 of the indicators are about religious being involved in everything they do but also

Pupils of other faiths and those of more humanist and secularist beliefs who are members of the school community are welcomed into the life of the school.

the gov/bishops describe this as inclusion but I think Atheist Ireland are right to point out that is not just domination but deliberate evangelism.

inocybe

expectationlost wrote: »

Catholic Schools Partnership – A process for Understanding, Supporting and Taking Ownership of the characteristic spirit in a Catholic school
http://www.catholicschools.ie/

http://www.catholicschools.ie/2012/04/19/catholic-schools-partnership/ 40 indicators checklist http://www.catholicschools.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/40-indicators-pdf.pdf

about 30 of the indicators are about religious being involved in everything they do but also

the gov/bishops describe this as inclusion but I think Atheist Ireland a right to point out that is not just domination but deliberate evangelism.

I pity the poor staff who 'are provided with opportunities to develop their understanding of Jesus Christ.'