School patronage

Shrap

expectationlost wrote: »

40 indicators checklist http://www.catholicschools.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/40-indicators-pdf.pdf

about 30 of the indicators are about religious being involved in everything they do

FFS, this is a disaster for a school that's trying to be inclusive.

If I was to answer for the primary school my kids went to, it would fail the test abysmally.

A. 3,4,5,7 & 8 FAIL
B. 3, 6,7 & 8 FAIL
C. 1,2,7 & 8 FAIL
D. 4
E. 1, 2(?),3,4,7 & 8 FAIL

And what a wonderful school it was/is. It would have been impossible for me to have sent my children there if the school didn't outright fail in all those areas.

Shrap

Wow. This is a pretty striking graphic. There is another one for multi denominational schools where you CAN actually see the shape of the country..... http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/06/10/are-the-schools-catholic/ but this one is huge so won't post the other one for the sake of your phones.

SpaceTime

Ah sure it's grand... You can just commute 120km each way or move house.

I'm actually embarrassed with the way the government basically spun total nonsense to the UN committee on my behalf

This situation is indefensible and defending it is actually immoral and not acting on the people's behalf, although there's nothing new there - vested interests come first in Ireland's governmental systems!

expectationlost

Denominational ethos of mainstream primary schools newly established for the years 2000 to 2015
Denominational ethos of new mainstream post-primary schools established for the years 2000 to 2014
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-06-09a.2406&s=%22School+Patronage%22

expectationlost

TDs critical of new legislation governing school enrolment
https://soundcloud.com/morning-ireland/tds-critical-of-new-school-enrolment

FG TDs have problem with religious discrimination but not class

expectationlost

hiding behind referendums http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/public-poll-needed-to-end-school-entry-rule-336492.html is the issue both rule 68 and section 37 combined? is it really a a constitutional issue?

gov still don't recognise that they are not fulfilling the constitution as it is for the non-relgious its always shown as a protection for the poor catholics

expectationlost

Tristram Hunt criticises “absurdities” caused by having faith schools in the education system http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2015/06/tristram-hunt-criticises-absurdities-caused-by-having-faith-schools-in-the-education-system getting bolshy as they vie for leadeship

Hotblack Desiato

expectationlost wrote: »

hiding behind referendums http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/public-poll-needed-to-end-school-entry-rule-336492.html is the issue both rule 68 and section 37 combined? is it really a a constitutional issue?

Easy to hide behind that excuse especially when it means the whole mess over who paid for what and who owns what then doesn't have to be clarified - providing assets at taxpayers' expense which are then under the ownership or at least control of religious bodies can only be unconstitutional endowment of religion.

If the state cannot interfere with a religious body and a school is a religious body, then there could be no requirement for teacher qualifications, no curriculum, no inspections.

SpaceTime

If there are constitutional difficulties: put it to a referendum!

We need a public school system. At this stage I would favour nationalising the national schools.

It's time someone faced down the vested interests for once and for all.

The simple reality is that Ireland is one of the very few developed countries in the world without a public school system.

If the referendum failed, well that'd be conclusive proof this is actually a backwards theocracy but at least we'd know. Then we could make choices like moving abroad.

The current system is one of the last but very significant instances of state-church merged corporatism here. It really needs to change and people really need to be asked about it properly in a national debate.

It's time to consult with the people, not just have tea with Sr Asumpta.

expectationlost

Rules for National Schools

Rule 68

“Of all the parts of a school curriculum Religious Instruction is by far the most important, as its subject-matter, God’s honour and service, includes the proper use of all man’s faculties, and affords the most powerful inducements to their proper use. Religious Instruction is, therefore, a fundamental part of the school course, and a religious spirit should inform and vivify the whole work of the school.

The teacher should constantly inculcate the practice of charity, justice, truth, purity, patience, temperance, obedience to lawful authority, and all the other moral virtues. In this way he will fulfil the primary duty of an educator, the moulding to perfect form of his pupils’ character, habituating them to observe, in their relations with God and with their neighbour, the laws which God, both directly through the dictates of natural reason and through Revelation, and indirectly through the ordinance of lawful authority, imposes on mankind.”

http://www.scribd.com/joannegilmartin/d/28716298-Rules-for-National-Schools-1965

The report refers to rule 68, which, if memory serves, goes back to 1965. Most of that rule book now is redundant in many respects because of the passage of the Education Act, the provisions of section 29 thereof

https://www.kildarestreet.com/sendebates/?id=2012-05-01.218.0&s=%22rule+68%22#g273.0 section 29 of which education act? http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1998/en/act/pub/0051/sec0029.html 1998 ?

Hotblack Desiato

Rule 68

“Of all the parts of a school curriculum Religious Instruction is by far the most important, as its subject-matter, God’s honour and service, includes the proper use of all man’s faculties, and affords the most powerful inducements to their proper use. Religious Instruction is, therefore, a fundamental part of the school course, and a religious spirit should inform and vivify the whole work of the school.

That's why I said up thread here that ETs only seem to be fairly loosely bound by the rules for national schools - only an explicitly mono-denominational school could be said to abide by that particular pile of shíte.

If the Dept. Education no longer believes these rules are fit for purpose (and how could even they think they are?) and are no longer willing to enforce them then they should abolish them in their current form and replace them with something fit for purpose in the 21st century.

I've always wondered why the Dept. Ed is sooo conservative - but the other day it occurred to me - the requirement for Irish pretty much locks-in rural conservative catholicism - few civil servants outside of Ed or Gaeltacht have anything more than rudimentary Irish or any at all.

byhookorbycrook

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

That's why I said up thread here that ETs only seem to be fairly loosely bound by the rules for national schools - only an explicitly mono-denominational school could be said to abide by that particular pile of shíte.

If the Dept. Education no longer believes these rules are fit for purpose (and how could even they think they are?) and are no longer willing to enforce them then they should abolish them in their current form and replace them with something fit for purpose in the 21st century.

I've always wondered why the Dept. Ed is sooo conservative - but the other day it occurred to me - the requirement for Irish pretty much locks-in rural conservative catholicism - few civil servants outside of Ed or Gaeltacht have anything more than rudimentary Irish or any at all.

So Irish =Catholic and conservative? I beg to differ.Many Gaelscoileanna are mulit-denom, like ET schools and also like many ET schools tend to encourage lots of parental involvement and are set up in response to demand in the locality.

lazygal

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

So Irish =Catholic and conservative? I beg to differ.Many Gaelscoileanna are mulit-denom, like ET schools and also like many ET schools tend to encourage lots of parental involvement and are set up in response to demand in the locality.

That's not the experience of.gaelscoils near me. They're all far more Catholic and exclusive than other schools, with interviews of parents required, a lot of religious indoctrination and the reason people chose them is because they perceive them as a chance to make sure their children will be free from English as a second language children. I'm sure others are different but the whole gaelscoil approach seems just another way to exclude people from.state funded education.

byhookorbycrook

lazygal wrote: »

That's not the experience of.gaelscoils near me. They're all far more Catholic and exclusive than other schools, with interviews of parents required, a lot of religious indoctrination and the reason people chose them is because they perceive them as a chance to make sure their children will be free from English as a second language children. I'm sure others are different but the whole gaelscoil approach seems just another way to exclude people from.state funded education.

I have to disagree that the Gaelscoil approach is to exclude people. In some parts of Dublin, it may be perceived as a snob thing to send your child to a Gaelcoil, but take it from me, most Gaelscoileanna have children of all faiths and none and from all sides of the community.There are plenty children whose parents do not have English as a first language in Gaelscoileanna and there are plenty multi-denom Gaelscoileanna too.

lazygal

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I have to disagree that the Gaelscoil approach is to exclude people. In some parts of Dublin, it may be perceived as a snob thing to send your child to a Gaelcoil, but take it from me, most Gaelscoileanna have children of all faiths and none and from all sides of the community.There are plenty children whose parents do not have English as a first language in Gaelscoileanna and there are plenty multi-denom Gaelscoileanna too.

Of course it excludes people. It creates pointless duplication of schools based purely on language. If you're not at all.interested in.having your child spend their school days learning through Irish you're not going to be able to have them attend a school that only teaches through Irish. We've enough ludicrous options as it is.

Hotblack Desiato

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

So Irish =Catholic and conservative? I beg to differ.Many Gaelscoileanna are mulit-denom

Hopefully not in the VEC 'multi-denominational' sense, i.e. a catholic school that lets protestants in too...

like ET schools

How many gaelscoils have a similar approach to religion as ETs? i.e. that all beliefs are treated equally and no religious instruction takes place during the school day?

recedite

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Hopefully not in the VEC 'multi-denominational' sense, i.e. a catholic school that lets protestants in too...

The Gaelscoil patron body, AFP (An Foras Patrunachta), has a special name for this type of school. They call them "inter-denominational".

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

How many gaelscoils have a similar approach to religion as ETs? i.e. that all beliefs are treated equally and no religious instruction takes place during the school day?

In fairness the newest ones are more likely to be of this type, at least in theory.
Here's an old letter written by the chairman of ET, and differentiating their own multi-denominational concept from the outdated and discredited "inter-denominational" model operated by AFP.

But since then, AFP seem to have embraced the ET multi-denominational concept and offered their own (Irish speaking) version of it.

Conversely (and confusingly) the ETB (formerly known as the VEC) secondary schools have come up with a primary school model which is similar to the older AFP "inter-denominational" model. It proposes to teach multiple and contradictory religious doctrines at the same time, by the segregation of pupils. But because ETB have realised that there are more than two religions in the country, they are using the name "multi-denominational" instead of "inter-denominational".

Shrap

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

How many gaelscoils have a similar approach to religion as ETs? i.e. that all beliefs are treated equally and no religious instruction takes place during the school day?

Can't tell you that but can tell you that friends of mine send their kids to a Gaelscoil half an hour away from them solely because of the lack of religious instruction. Also, the principal is a gay man who campaigned publicly and effectively for SSM recently.

The only problem I'd have with that school is that everything is taught through Irish, and I'm more in the business of hoping Ireland cops on to what a massive waste of children's time and our resources it is to force feed Irish to generation after generation of non-Irish speakers (but that's another thread).

lazygal

It's the sheer waste of resources to set up schools teaching exclusively through Irish that bothers me too. The fact that parents campaign for yet more fragmentation of an already too fragmented and expensive system just shows how education is really run in the interests of everyone but the pupils in Ireland.

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

Here's an old letter written by the chairman of ET, and differentiating their own multi-denominational concept from the outdated and discredited "inter-denominational" model operated by AFP.

I don't recall hearing about the Dunboyne episode at the time - very shabby indeed.

Unintentionally hilarious JW article:
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ecumenists-in-ireland-beggar-belief-1.1087868
Naturally he completely misrepresents the issue of catholic sacramental preparation taking place during the school day - against the wishes of the principal, staff and (most) parents, catholics included.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/principal-sacked-in-religon-row-is-heartbroken-1.431613
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/principal-of-gaelscoil-in-dispute-over-teaching-of-religion-sacked-1.1090300
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/concerns-of-c-of-i-parents-yet-to-be-addressed-1.1091028

Twomey weighs in: :rolleyes:
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/the-dunboyne-controversy-1.1091813

Depressing how little progress has been made in the last 13 years on the issues raised here.
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/battle-for-the-heart-and-soul-of-education-1.1093321

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/dispute-at-dunboyne-gaelscoil-1.1094004
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/numbers-fall-at-controversial-dunboyne-school-1.1094029
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/continuing-divisions-at-dunboyne-gaelscoil-1.356766
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/religious-education-in-schools-1.357158

alaimacerc

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Twomey weighs in: :rolleyes:
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/the-dunboyne-controversy-1.1091813

*twitch, twitch*

Curious how a "typically anti-Catholic biased" newspaper keeps giving him houseroom for his blast-from-the-past ultra-hardline views, isn't it?

recedite

I don't think running a Gaelscoil requires any additional resources?
As long as the school is full, and they normally are, there is no waste of resources.
Maybe in terms of transportation for pupils because kids are not going to their nearest school. Or variations in books. But same the same could be said for any patronage; this is a natural consequence of giving people choice.
A certain amount of choice can be good. A monopoly often tends towards corruption, including a State run monopoly.

As long as Irish is mandatory for the Leaving Cert and State jobs, sending kids to a Gaelscoil is a rational response. It is a bit of a chicken and egg situation though when teachers are required to have a good level of Irish, just so they can teach it to the next generation, so that they in turn can get jobs as teachers.....

SpaceTime

The problem is we create lots and lots of duplicated small schools, every one of those has managerial overheads, facilities overheads and a principal's salary to pay out.

So, basically that means less resources for hiring teachers (larger class sizes), less resources for facilities due to lack of scale and funds (sports/gyms, science facilities, IT facilities, art facilities, drama, libraries etc), fewer resources for special needs assistances and educational psychology services.

It also pulls money away from rural education where small schools might actually be needed by providing rural-like small schools in urban areas duplicated over and over instead of creating decent sized public schools with all those good facilities available.

recedite

SpaceTime wrote: »

The problem is we create lots and lots of duplicated small schools, every one of those has managerial overheads, facilities overheads and a principal's salary to pay out.

Oh I see, you want larger schools. Its not an argument specific to Gaelscoileanna though. I'm not sure parents would really agree with larger schools and having to travel further. People kick up a fuss when hospitals close down departments and amalgamate them for a similar rationale. Even though its justifiable IMO for certain highly specialised medical services.

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

I don't think running a Gaelscoil requires any additional resources?

More schools = more resources, whatever the type of school. Promotion posts and economies of scale.
But gaelscoils also have a better pupil teacher ratio and there is a cost to this.

As long as Irish is mandatory for the Leaving Cert and State jobs, sending kids to a Gaelscoil is a rational response.

Passing ordinary level Irish in the Leaving is p!ss easy, I managed it but could barely string a spoken or written sentence together unless it'd been learned off by rote. Needless to say I never read, wrote or uttered a word of it in the more than quarter century since

Irish hasn't been required for State jobs (other than teaching) since approx. 1974. I think it's also at least that long since a pass in Irish was required to obtain the Leaving Certificate.
Most schools will make you go to Irish classes but nobody is going to make you actually take the paper, and non-NUI colleges don't care.

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

Oh I see, you want larger schools.

There is a huge amount of needless duplication. I have written before about how in my area there are several RC primary and secondary schools, all within a few hundred metres of each other. There is needless duplication on gender grounds, even ignoring the issue of patronage entirely.

SpaceTime

recedite wrote: »

Oh I see, you want larger schools. Its not an argument specific to Gaelscoileanna though. I'm not sure parents would really agree with larger schools and having to travel further. People kick up a fuss when hospitals close down departments and amalgamate them for a similar rationale. Even though its justifiable IMO for certain highly specialised medical services.

They often have to travel further because of the fragmentation - especially in urban areas where you've still got a lot of boys & girls schools. If you're not Catholic, you may also have to drive huge distances.

People kick up over all sorts of stuff, it doesn't mean they're right though. We've a situation where the agenda is being set by vested interests wanting to control schools instead of an overarching interest in providing the best possible education.

The issue here should be about class sizes, quality of education, quality of buildings, quality of outcomes.

We just keep breaking the system down into smaller and smaller units to address every parent's whims which is resulting in an unsustainable system, schools with very poor facilities and serious issues even keeping buildings repaired in some cases.

I moved here and I was utterly shocked at the lack of facilities in schools. Most primary schools here have no sports facilities, no serious IT facilities, no drama, no art, nothing really other than a few bare classrooms and a little yard where the kids run around.

Secondary schools are often not much better. I went to one that didn't even have a library and had a pokey little sports hall.

There's a notion in Ireland that small always = good and that you can't create facilities with any scale because big always = bad.

That simply isn't the case.

Also, as Ireland inevitably becomes more diverse you're just going to see even more pressure going on to open more schools to cater to that diversity. You'll see more Educate Together, more Muslim schools, probably other religions asking for schools, possibly schools for particular languages e.g. Polish schools could be a possibility .. and so on.

Because we don't have a public education system, those groups are 100% justified in their demand for the same rights as the Catholic community.

The choice is either:

1) Keep fragmenting until there's a serious national crisis down the road somewhere.
2) Start to build a proper public school system.

I think Ireland is going for option 1.

recedite

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Passing ordinary level Irish in the Leaving is p!ss easy...
Irish hasn't been required for State jobs (other than teaching) since approx. 1974.

Getting an A is easy for those that are fluent, hence more CAO points.
I think Garda requires Irish, and in most civil service positions gaelgeoirs get bonus points for internal promotion. See here. I'm not defending any of this. Just saying that its not irrational, given the situation, for parents to want their kids to be fluent at Irish. Especially if they are teachers themselves, hence it is quite common for teachers to send their own kids to a Gaelscoil, even just for primary school. At secondary level there can be problems though, as a result of knowing technical terminology only by the Irish names.

SpaceTime wrote: »

The issue here should be about class sizes, quality of education, quality of buildings, quality of outcomes.

I agree. The first school in an area should be built to the optimum size, have good facilities, and be suitable for everyone.
In larger towns there may be scope for some choice of management style or ethos subsequently, if there are a number of such schools, and all are reasonably easy to travel to.

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

There is a huge amount of needless duplication. I have written before about how in my area there are several RC primary and secondary schools, all within a few hundred metres of each other. There is needless duplication on gender grounds, even ignoring the issue of patronage entirely.

But I don't think we should ignore the issue of patronage, because this cuts both ways. The "Consultation on Patronage" that was conducted a few years ago, and that identified a number of districts - was it 38? - in which a school should be transferred away from Catholic patronage, was based on the current policy regarding minimum school size (four teachers). As in, if there was enough interest in non-Catholic patronage to populate a four-teacher school, then a transfer away from Catholic patronage was recommended. If we were to adopt a policy of larger schools, then the forseeable result from that consultation would be fewer recommended transfers.

Basically, if you prefer larger schools and less diversity in school types, that tends to favour the dominant preference which, in Ireland, is for are Catholic-patronised schools. If your preference is in the minority - whether it be for Montessori education, Steiner education, Irish-medium education, secular education, Jewish education - you will do less well under this system than under a system which accommodates smaller schools and more school types.

You may deplore the fact that the majority preference in Ireland is for denominational-patranage schools, but the reality is that it is. The corollary is that those who don't share that preference should favour policies which will maximise diversity. And those policies include smaller schools and a variety of patronage models.

Shrap

lazygal wrote: »

It's the sheer waste of resources to set up schools teaching exclusively through Irish that bothers me too. The fact that parents campaign for yet more fragmentation of an already too fragmented and expensive system just shows how education is really run in the interests of everyone but the pupils in Ireland.

AND everything else being run in the interests of bureaucracy, and not the service users. My Dad is bang on - he's always said we Irish took to bureaucracy like a duck to water and if something CAN be tied up in red tape, it WILL be. We're world class bureaucrats.