School patronage

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

More to the point, these are new schools built on publicly owned land by the taxpayer. So nothing to do with any church. Yet the religious patrons can still get a shot at the patronage and a chance to run them. And if they succeed, they can still impose a priority admissions policy for "their own" religious group. They are quite happy to make a declaration that the school will be open to the entire local community, but they also want priority for their own clique.

But as we've seen, the DoE can ensure their priority admissions policy may be overruled by DoE policy, by requiring they commit up front (without caveat) to enrolling children in the area for whom the Department has identified the need for a school.

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

But as we've seen, the DoE can ensure their priority admissions policy may be overruled by DoE policy...

Can you cite an example where this has happened?

Daith

Absolam wrote: »

Perhaps parents from other areas were applying to your local school because like you they wanted a school that aligned with their ethos

I do wonder how the ethos of only being a Catholic for communion, confirmation, weddings and funerals aligns to most Catholic schools own ethos tbh

eviltwin

Absolam wrote: »

It's tricky to legislate for rudeness and dismissiveness in fairness; they're traits that might be exhibited by staff in schools with pretty much any ethos. Interesting that your preferred school was a non-local one; I wonder if that's why your local school didn't have room for your son? Perhaps parents from other areas were applying to your local school because like you they wanted a school that aligned with their ethos, and were prepared to look a little further than local to get it, just like you did. Maybe they even had their local ET as a backup.

I like diversity too, I think it's good for children. But if you enforce that diversity, aren't people who don't have options (like the option of a Catholic education) still going to be forced to take their children to school outside the community?

Why should the responsibility for religious education be placed on the school? Why not follow the lead of other churches and have sunday schools or follow the ET model and have religion at the end of the day in the school so the rest of the student body can go home?

Daith

eviltwin wrote: »

Why not follow the lead of other churches and have sunday schools

Because most Catholic children who go to Catholic schools wouldn't go to Church on a Sunday or Church at all.

I'm actually surprised the Church and schools don't do what you suggest. You want your child making communion? Go to Church and bring them with you!

Instead we end up with lip service all round.

Fleawuss

And politicians will kick the can down the road. Unless it becomes unbearable for them. We need a break with the old ways in this country: the nod and wink, the arra shure, be grand, it means nothing, the governance by dead generations. The legal and constitutional mess is very clear. It's ridiculous that the mad social ideas of 1930s Fianna Fáil have still power: even they abandoned their protectionist economic lunacy in the 1950's. It's time to let the younger generations have a country they want.

expectationlost

anyone with a sprog ever spoken to the local councillor about schools (if its the VEC/ETB who are supposed to provide them, with state funding)
and secondary and more recently primary

Community National Schools - Government funded and State operated schools http://www.cns.ie/index.php/2012-09-17-11-25-25/2013-01-03-15-46-19

there doesn't seem to be much talk about these its all about ET even Gaelscoileann these guys rarely get mentioned.

lazygal

expectationlost wrote: »

anyone with a sprog ever spoken to the local councillor about schools (if its the VEC/ETB who are supposed to provide them)
and secondary and more recently primary
Community National Schools - Government funded and State operated schools http://www.cns.ie/index.php/2012-09-17-11-25-25/2013-01-03-15-46-19

I spoke to my local TD about these schools.

They practice the Goodness Me, Goodness You programme. They have what I consider to be a divisive practice whereby children are separated during the school day for indoctrination and came about because Mary Hanafin didn't like the ET model. The Catholic hierarchy and other faiths seemed to have had a hand in ensuring indoctrination was facilitated and based on what I've read about the schools I wouldn't say its a good model at all.

inocybe

It's not always as simple as going to a further school of your choice - if your child is taking the bus it is required to go to the nearest school to your house. Otherwise you're not eligible for concessions, and if the bus is full your child is last in queue for a seat. If a bus even exists on that route.

Fleawuss

I see Mr Quinn of Iona wants fewer schools but genuine RC ones. Excellent. With genuine RC parents of no place I hope. No birth control other than natural? Excellent. Let's see how that would look.

expectationlost

Ruairi Quinn op-ed Time to end the Catholic monopoly on our children's schools http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/time-to-end-the-catholic-monopoly-on-our-childrens-schools-31430961.html

If the Catholic Church was a commercial company operating in the Irish economy, the Competition Authority would order it to divest itself of at least half of its urban schools

doesn't really say what should happen, depending on the church to act and divest hasn't worked

Labour TD Ruari Quinn TD and David Quinn of the Iona Institute, on parents trying to get places for their children at their local primary schools

http://podcast.rasset.ie/podcasts/audio/2015/0806/20150806_rteradio1-newsatone-worriesove_c20825950_20825992_232_.mp3 News at One

PopePalpatine

Fleawuss wrote: »

I see Mr Quinn of Iona wants fewer schools but genuine RC ones.

Remind me, how did he react to Operation Trojan Horse?

expectationlost

lazygal wrote: »

I spoke to my local TD about these schools.

They practice the Goodness Me, Goodness You programme. They have what I consider to be a divisive practice whereby children are separated during the school day for indoctrination and came about because Mary Hanafin didn't like the ET model. The Catholic hierarchy and other faiths seemed to have had a hand in ensuring indoctrination was facilitated and based on what I've read about the schools I wouldn't say its a good model at all.

did you say that to the TD,what did they say?

lazygal

expectationlost wrote: »

did you say that to the TD,what did they say?

He didn't address my issues with the goodness me, goodness you programme at all. Instead he sent me an irrelevant spiel from the department of education about enrolment policies and how schools can't discriminate on religious grounds except when they can.

padohaodha

whinge whinge whinge is all I see all over this thread.I'm not a catholic but as far as I can see the different religions originally set up the schools in Ireland because the state wouldn't educate the people.if you want a new school stop whinging and get up off your backsides and set up a school.the gaelcholaistes did this.

lazygal

padohaodha wrote: »

whinge whinge whinge is all I see all over this thread.I'm not a catholic but as far as I can see the different religions originally set up the schools in Ireland because the state wouldn't educate the people.if you want a new school stop whinging and get up off your backsides and set up a school.the gaelcholaistes did this.

Yawn. Do we really have to explain the grab of education by religious bodies in the nineteenth century again?

Not a NSA agent

lazygal wrote: »

Yawn. Do we really have to explain the grab of education by religious bodies in the nineteenth century again?

You can try but seeing as how often it comes up I doubt any of the people bringing it up read the thread, they just turn up, claim about all the hard work they did (when it had nothing to do with them, they picked the handiest school which was already there) and prance off.

padohaodha

lazygal wrote: »

Yawn. Do we really have to explain the grab of education by religious bodies in the nineteenth century again?

yawn...would people ever get over themselves and start a school in their area and stop moaning.

lazygal

padohaodha wrote: »

yawn...would people ever get over themselves and start a school in their area and stop moaning.

So....
1) Get Over Myself
2)Start A School In My Area
3) Stop Moaning

Is that how we run education in this country?

expectationlost

lazygal wrote: »

He didn't address my issues with the goodness me, goodness you programme at all. Instead he sent me an irrelevant spiel from the department of education about enrolment policies and how schools can't discriminate on religious grounds except when they can.

ever pay him a visit?

eviltwin

Absolam wrote: »

It's tricky to legislate for rudeness and dismissiveness in fairness; they're traits that might be exhibited by staff in schools with pretty much any ethos. Interesting that your preferred school was a non-local one; I wonder if that's why your local school didn't have room for your son? Perhaps parents from other areas were applying to your local school because like you they wanted a school that aligned with their ethos, and were prepared to look a little further than local to get it, just like you did. Maybe they even had their local ET as a backup.

I like diversity too, I think it's good for children. But if you enforce that diversity, aren't people who don't have options (like the option of a Catholic education) still going to be forced to take their children to school outside the community?

Quite the opposite. That local school that was so dismissive of my child didn't make minimum numbers this year and lost a teacher. On the flip side the ETs can't accommodate everyone who wants a place. It's messed up. I'm not against religion in schools btw but think there should be a way to have it as an add on to the day so those kids who are religious can learn about their faith just as they do with drama, music, sport. That way everyone can go to the one school.

lazygal

expectationlost wrote: »

ever pay him a visit?

It was all via email.
I recently spoke to another politician about school patronage and enrolment policies, especially those of schools in our area which prioritize Catholic children outside the area over our children. The politician didn't understand what I was talking about and even when I explained the enrolment policy of the nearest school claimed all local schools had to admit local children of any or no faith first.

padohaodha

lazygal wrote: »

So....
1) Get Over Myself
2)Start A School In My Area
3) Stop Moaning

Is that how we run education in this country?

for the amount of people who just moan and groan and do nothing else.....ah....it would be a start anyway

lazygal

padohaodha wrote: »

for the amount of people who just moan and groan and do nothing else.....ah....it would be a start anyway

But I have Get Over Myself and Set Up A School before I can Stop Moaning.

padohaodha

lazygal wrote: »

But I have Get Over Myself and Set Up A School before I can Stop Moaning.

moan away..that's your prerogative....I never said you personally but I'm weary of all those people in this country who expect somebody else to do the dirty work....

Hotblack Desiato

padohaodha wrote: »

moan away..that's your prerogative....I never said you personally but I'm weary of all those people in this country who expect somebody else to do the dirty work....

what's unreasonable about expecting a developed country to have a proper state school system? and further division, duplication and balkanisation of the education system on the basis of religion (or education through minority languages not spoken in the homes of the children concerned) is the last thing this country needs, both economically and socially it's disastrous.

padohaodha

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

what's unreasonable about expecting a developed country to have a proper state school system? and further division, duplication and balkanisation of the education system (e.g. promoting education through minority languages not spoken in the homes of the children concerned) is the last thing this country needs, both economically and socially it's disastrous.

don't know what this has to do with me or why you quoted me!

padohaodha

padohaodha wrote: »

don't know what this has to do with me or why you quoted me!

so lets get rid of Irish and religion and replace it with a one size fits all ...utter nonsense...sure get rid of history as well....oh wait..that fool ruairi Quinn has already done that...forward thinking!while we are at it.we can all worship at the gospel of the new religion-atheism!a lot of atheists are worse than the Catholics for not listening to non-believers imo

Hotblack Desiato

padohaodha wrote: »

don't know what this has to do with me or why you quoted me!

sigh

the 'set up your own school and stop whinging' nonsense. should every minority in the country be treated like crap because they can theoretically set up their own schools if they don't like it?

How many schools should we have, anyway? Ever more division is socially, educationally, and economically, the completely wrong way to be going. But those in the privileged majority, or one of the privileged minorities may be forgiven for their inability or unwillingness to see this.

rainbow kirby

padohaodha wrote: »

so lets get rid of Irish and religion

Not a bad idea at all :pac: