School patronage

PopePalpatine

padohaodha wrote: »

don't know what this has to do with me or why you quoted me!

You're the one who puked a river of bile onto this thread.

padohaodha

PopePalpatine wrote: »

You're the one who puked a river of bile onto this thread.

my point remains...stop moaning..set up a school and bobs your uncle....but I love ur almost biblical reference...kinda contradictory really.if I don't agree with you just abuse ...nice new education system

expectationlost

OPINION: Religious education is "a gift for the next generation"
http://www.newstalk.com/Religious-education-is-a-gift-for-the-next-generation

Primary school teacher tells Newstalk.com: "My own faith has helped me through many sad and stressful life experiences - it should be more than an academic subject"

I have yet to find a child that did not look forward to the religion lesson as much as an art, music or drama lesson. These subjects can also be integrated with the lesson and for this reason the children often do not realise that they are being taught religion - I have seen children of other faiths take great enjoyment from the music and songs in the Alive O programme.

jeepers creepers

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

Can you cite an example where this has happened?

I can certainly cite where it can happen (which is what i said);
The case of the new Cork school we were discussing earlier where one of the requirements of being a patron was:

-Is willing to enrol children in the area for whom the Department has identified the need for a school.

Without any caveat on that statement, the State can insist the school enrols the children it has identified as having a need, regardless of the schools faith requirements. I pretty much thought that would have been the only reason for including it as a requirement of patronage?

Absolam

Daith wrote: »

I do wonder how the ethos of only being a Catholic for communion, confirmation, weddings and funerals aligns to most Catholic schools own ethos tbh

I suppose it depends on the school?

Absolam

eviltwin wrote: »

Why should the responsibility for religious education be placed on the school? Why not follow the lead of other churches and have sunday schools or follow the ET model and have religion at the end of the day in the school so the rest of the student body can go home?

I'm certainly not saying the responsibility for religious education must placed on the school, but I don't see why a school founded for the purpose of providing religious education to a particular religious group should be prevented from doing so?

Absolam

eviltwin wrote: »

Quite the opposite. That local school that was so dismissive of my child didn't make minimum numbers this year and lost a teacher.

Was it undersubscribed in the year that you applied for your son to attend though?

eviltwin wrote: »

On the flip side the ETs can't accommodate everyone who wants a place. It's messed up.

Every year? For instance, in the year your son was accepted, do you think his acceptance meant a child from the local area was turned away and had to go to a school in a different area as a result?

eviltwin wrote: »

I'm not against religion in schools btw but think there should be a way to have it as an add on to the day so those kids who are religious can learn about their faith just as they do with drama, music, sport. That way everyone can go to the one school.

Do you think there are schools like that in your local area? If not, do you think you would have sufficient support from parents in your local area to open a school with such an ethos?

Daith

Absolam wrote: »

I suppose it depends on the school?

So schools have their own interpretation of Catholic ethos too?

No wonder David Quinn is pissed off.

eviltwin

Absolam wrote: »

Was it undersubscribed in the year that you applied for your son to attend though?

Every year? For instance, in the year your son was accepted, do you think his acceptance meant a child from the local area was turned away and had to go to a school in a different area as a result?

Do you think there are schools like that in your local area? If not, do you think you would have sufficient support from parents in your local area to open a school with such an ethos?

Yes, the conversation I had with the representative was early in the year, later on I found out their numbers were an issue. Obviously they didn't think when they came to the preschools it would be a problem. It just goes to show you can never assume anything. I'm sure there are local kids who won't get in and have to travel but that's a supply issue nothing to do with religion. Should local families be made to feel guilty now if they take a place in a local Catholic school despite not being religious, are we going down that road now. My son's current school place means a local child didn't get it but what can I do? My son needs an education. What do you mean by a school with that ethos? It's not an ethos to have extra curriculum activities scheduled for the end of the day. All schools do this already. I think unfortunately most parents are happy with the status quo as it means their kids get the preparation they need for sacraments without the need for the parents to bother going to mass.

eviltwin

Absolam wrote: »

I'm certainly not saying the responsibility for religious education must placed on the school, but I don't see why a school founded for the purpose of providing religious education to a particular religious group should be prevented from doing so?

That's not the issue. It's not about banning religion from schools. It's about equality of access. Local kids in local schools. Why are people making out its a huge deal to accommodate non religious children? Why are people so anti equality? Is it that there are people out there who are just distrustful of other faiths, are people worried that a non Catholic influence might be a bad thing.

kylith

padohaodha wrote: »

moan away..that's your prerogative....I never said you personally but I'm weary of all those people in this country who expect somebody else to do the dirty work....

The ones who want someone else to do their dirty work are the parents who farm out religious instruction to their kids' schools because they can't be arsed to do it themselves but they still want the day out for communion and confirmation. And the churches who want to have a sectarian school system but want the state and the public to pay for it.

If the RCC want to have discriminatory enrolment policy then they should be paying for the running of the school themselves. The public purse should only fund schools which are open to all members of the public, regardless of their religious affiliation.

Daith

eviltwin wrote: »

Is it that there are people out there who are just distrustful of other faiths, are people worried that a non Catholic influence might be a bad thing.

Hell even with a Catholic influence it would seem schools are terrible at promoting a Catholic ethos.

The reaction from some Bishops after marriage referendum seemed to be

"We've had nearly every Irish person in a Catholic school for over a decade and they still voted Yes".

Hardcore Catholics want less Catholic schools so the remaining ones actually promote the ethos

Non religious people/other faiths want less Catholic schools or more alternatives.

The only people happy with the status quo seems to be the actual patrons who are happy to take anyone baptized at a cost of promoting more lip service to their own ethos that is ever so important to them.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/church-offered-unsuitable-remote-building-for-educate-together-school-1.2309910

ET offered school in unsuitable location which has been closed for 20 years.

Did anyone really think the divestment programme would go anywhere?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

robindch

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Sounds like the good bishop might be a master baiter.

recedite

recedite wrote: »

Can you cite an example where this has happened?

Absolam wrote: »

I can certainly cite where it can happen (which is what i said);
The case of the new Cork school we were discussing earlier where one of the requirements of being a patron was: Is willing to enrol children in the area for whom the Department has identified the need for a school.
...the State can insist the school enrols the children it has identified as having a need, regardless of the schools faith requirements.

You have cited an example of parents (the lazy "whingers" as described earlier) trying to set up a secular school. At no stage did they say they would practice religious discrimination in the admissions policy. The opposite in fact.

I'll cite an example of it actually happening. A new publicly owned school, awarded to a religious patron (the CoI) which has subsequently introduced the kind of religious discrimination which violates the terms of the original Dept Education patronage. And is allowed to get away with it, because well... "ethos".
The 2016 admission policy here has several categories, in order of priority;

Cat 0; offspring of teachers and clergy (all teachers would be CoI due to "employment equality" ethos loophole)

Cat 1; pupils attending the named local schools (all named are the local primary schools, regardless of ethos)

Cat 2; pupils attending the named non-local schools (all named are CoI schools)

"Cat 1" listed there has apparently been created to satisfy the Dept. of Ed patronage rules, in some superficial way, and labelled as if it was the first category, even though it is really the second category. But within that category is the caveat..

Where there is an excess of applicants within a category, any priority afforded within that category will first be applied and remaining places available shall be offered on the basis of random selection from qualifying applicants within that category.

And what exactly do they mean by "any priority afforded"? And who are the remaining randomers? No prizes for guessing the answer to this one, but you have to scroll down to the small print at the bottom of the page to find it....

Appendix 1 – claiming an active affiliation to a Church of Ireland parish

Applicantswith an active parish affiliation are children who are certified to the School in a prescribed form (available from the School Office) by the Rector for the time being of their parish as meeting each of the following three criteria;a) their immediate families (parents and siblings) are currently enrolled on the parish registerb)with their families they attend church services (in particular Family Services) at their parish church frequently , and

c) they and their immediate families are involved currently in the faith life of the church locally.
If you think that your child qualifies for an active parish affiliation, you should make contact with the school office (or send an email to admissions2016@templecarrigschool.ie), to receive an Active Parish Affiliation form which should be completed and returned to the school office directly. The obligation rests with applicants to complete this form and return it to the school office within the time indicated on the form. The school office will then forward the form to the relevant Rector for verification.

I stress again that this is a new school in the final stages of construction, being built on land purchased by the state, well away from any church or parish owned lands, and 100% funded by the State. Yet the first thing the religious patron does after being awarded the patronage is to manipulate the admissions policy to suit "their own".
By taking advantage of a latent demand for school places in the general population, they can use the school as a recruitment and indoctrination vehicle. All paid for by you and I.

Absolam

Daith wrote: »

So schools have their own interpretation of Catholic ethos too? No wonder David Quinn is pissed off.

Don't schools have their own interpretation of Catholic ethos?

Absolam

eviltwin wrote: »

Yes, the conversation I had with the representative was early in the year, later on I found out their numbers were an issue. Obviously they didn't think when they came to the preschools it would be a problem. It just goes to show you can never assume anything. I'm sure there are local kids who won't get in and have to travel but that's a supply issue nothing to do with religion.

To be clear; your son was refused admission and the school opened that year with less pupils in the class your son would have been in than it was supposed to have?

eviltwin wrote: »

Should local families be made to feel guilty now if they take a place in a local Catholic school despite not being religious, are we going down that road now.

I don't know if someone should feel guilty about educating their children in an ethos they don't subscribe to; I suppose that's up to them.

eviltwin wrote: »

My son's current school place means a local child didn't get it but what can I do? My son needs an education.

If the school matches the ethos you want for your child I don't see why a local child has any more right to the place than he does, but I guess that's a matter of opinion.

eviltwin wrote: »

What do you mean by a school with that ethos? It's not an ethos to have extra curriculum activities scheduled for the end of the day. All schools do this already. I think unfortunately most parents are happy with the status quo as it means their kids get the preparation they need for sacraments without the need for the parents to bother going to mass.

I mean a school with the ethos that religion can be a part of schooling but it should be as an add on to the day so those kids who are religious can learn about their faith just as they do with drama, music, & sport. If you like, that religion should be an extra-curricular activity, or at least if it cannot be (as it is a DoE curricular activity) then it should be treated like one insofar as it is possible.

eviltwin wrote: »

That's not the issue. It's not about banning religion from schools. It's about equality of access. Local kids in local schools. Why are people making out its a huge deal to accommodate non religious children? Why are people so anti equality? Is it that there are people out there who are just distrustful of other faiths, are people worried that a non Catholic influence might be a bad thing.

So you're saying that your priority is that local children should go to local schools, regardless of school ethos? Would you also disregard academic excellence in favour of locality? It's just that your preferred school for your son was a non local school, which was distinguished from local schools by it's ethos, was it not? The local school you chose, disregarding it's ethos, was your secondary choice, which would indicate that local schools for local children isn't actually what you really want?

evolving_doors

padohaodha wrote: »

moan away..that's your prerogative....I never said you personally but I'm weary of all those people in this country who expect somebody else to do the dirty work....

The church expects state paid teachers to do their dirty work by preparing their flock for Holy Communion and confirmation during school time. Meanwhile I know of kids who are not partaking who are given extra maths work to keep them occupied (the work isn't even corrected). Punishment by maths... is that a new teaching method?

To my mind people allowing access to eduction on the proviso of 'taking the soup' is old and outdated (1845 anyone?). Would folk also be happy if the situation were the exact same with access to healthcare?

Patient in Catholic A&E: Nurse my son broke his leg
Nurse: Baptism Cert first please...
Patient: I don't have one.
Nurse: Well there's a multi-denominational hospital 20km down the road off you go. And if you don't like that you are more than free to set up your own hospital. So I've given you a choice, you have a choice so no whingin. And by the way sir, this is a very popular hospital which is evidenced by the Catholic people who chose to come here for the Catholic Ethos and Catholic Medicine.

evolving_doors

Absolam wrote: »

Don't schools have their own interpretation of Catholic ethos?

They do indeed have their own interpretation of Catholic ethos... the same as homeopaths have their own interpretation of science.

Can anyone explain what ethos is anyway?

expectationlost

School patronage tipped for Labour election campaign http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/school-patronage-tipped-for-labour-election-campaign-31436277.html they are still in government for another ~6 months

if theres a problem the gov need to deal with it

why would you vote for a party that didn't tackle the problem in their 5 years in government based on more promises

what FG TDs said
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/fg-tds-attack-osullivan-for-criticism-over-school-baptism-31433706.html

"The problem with enrolment in my constituency relates to bricks and mortar not the signs hanging over the door," Mr Farrell said.

ok so building more schools FG+LP

SpaceTime

I'll be voting on this, the 8th and repealing the blasphemy law as well as economics.

If I get the wrong answers on the door, there'll be no preferences going to them. Simple as that really.

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

You have cited an example of parents (the lazy "whingers" as described earlier) trying to set up a secular school. At no stage did they say they would practice religious discrimination in the admissions policy. The opposite in fact.

I've cited an example of what you asked for; an instance of where the DoE can ensure a faith schools priority admissions policy may be overruled by DoE policy.

recedite wrote: »

I'll cite an example of it actually happening. A new publicly owned school<...> paid for by you and I.

Surely that's an example of where the DoE doesn't ensure a faith schools priority admissions policy may be overruled by DoE policy?

Absolam

Gebgbegb wrote: »

They do indeed have their own interpretation of Catholic ethos... the same as homeopaths have their own interpretation of science. Can anyone explain what ethos is anyway?

You're saying that a Catholic schools interpretation of Catholic ethos is the equivalent of a homeopaths interpretation of science in what way exactly?

Ethos is is a Greek word meaning "character" that is used to describe the guiding beliefs or ideals that characterize a community, nation, or ideology. In the case of a school, it describes the guiding beliefs or ideals that characterise the school.
I've linked the dictionary.com definition for you, and the Merriam Webster one too.
Interesting that you were able to determine that a schools interpretation of Catholic ethos is the equivalent of a homeopaths interpretation of science, without knowing what ethos is. Do you need a link to the definition of science as well?

PopePalpatine

Come to think of it, given that the RCC is having trouble with extremist seminarians, I think it's just a matter of time before we have something like Operation Trojan Horse in Irish schools.

evolving_doors

debate on newstalk now... although these 'debates' only ever last a few minutes and scrape the surface.

Daith

Absolam wrote: »

Don't schools have their own interpretation of Catholic ethos?

No actually. They have guidelines from the Church.

Which is probably why the likes of Quinn want less Catholic schools too. They shouldn't have their own interpretation!

evolving_doors

Absolam wrote: »

You're saying that a Catholic schools interpretation of Catholic ethos is the equivalent of a homeopaths interpretation of science in what way exactly?

Ethos is is a Greek word meaning "character" that is used to describe the guiding beliefs or ideals that characterize a community, nation, or ideology. In the case of a school, it describes the guiding beliefs or ideals that characterise the school.
I've linked the dictionary.com definition for you, and the Merriam Webster one too.
Interesting that you were able to determine that a schools interpretation of Catholic ethos is the equivalent of a homeopaths interpretation of science, without knowing what ethos is. Do you need a link to the definition of science as well?

In terms of ethos I know what it pertains to be.. the same as I know what blood letting, hopi ear candle treatment or consulting with angels pertains to be.

Here is what hopi ear candle treatment pertains to be:

"The art of ear candling (also known as Thermal Auricular Therapy) handed down by our ancestors, has been rediscovered as a pleasant and non-invasive treatment of the ears and a great healing tool. Hopi Ear Candles are often used today as a relaxing treatment to ease away the stresses of our Western culture and to address a number of problems relating to the ear, neck and face areas."

Does that make it true?

In the same vein I don't think ascribing a 'religious ethos' or 'religious education' to other forms of education really means anything. Sure, they can stick a motto on their website ...in Latin of course ("Thermal Auricular Therapy" sounds legit doesn't it)).

I would really like if you could quote any Ethos or mission statement from any school and we could examine what is so 'christian' about promoting sport, academia, science, or the arts?

Aineoil

On RTE 1 Radio The the moment.

Absolam

Daith wrote: »

No actually. They have guidelines from the Church. Which is probably why the likes of Quinn want less Catholic schools too. They shouldn't have their own interpretation!

Interesting, you should link them for us? Bearing in mind that there's no requirement to follow guidelines; if there were, they'd be rules, not guidelines, but nonetheless my understanding was that it was up to the Bishop of the diocese who is the patron of the schools to set out their ethos. Which is why, for instance, the Schedule that provides the legal definition of ‘Catholic ethos' for dioceses of Ireland, is different from the ethos set out by Bishops in the UK. The Vatican sets out 'five essential marks of Catholic schools', and specifically sets the task of fostering Catholic ethos to the Bishops.
In fact, the Irish Bishops Conference created a document specifically to help schools profile themselves in terms of their Catholic ethos in the light of those five key characteristics of a Catholic school. Rather an odd exercise to undertake if all Catholic schools have a Church mandated 'interpretation' of Catholic ethos I would have thought.