School patronage

recedite

The "ethos" is really micromanaged by the school's Board of Management.
In a denominational school, the chairman of the BOM is typically the local Godman, and his vision/interpretation of ethos is obtained from "on high", and implemented within the school by the school principal (who he has previously interviewed and appointed).
Which all makes a nonsense of that FG claim in the Indo article...

Most Fine Gael members are supportive of the divestment process but believe school boards of management should have the final say on a school's religious ethos.

from;

expectationlost wrote: »

School patronage tipped for Labour election campaign http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/school-patronage-tipped-for-labour-election-campaign-31436277.html

The other claim made there..

However, in some areas, Government-commissioned opinion polls showed parents did not want the schools divested from the Church.

could be described as an endorsement of the principle the tyranny of the majority. Which is not compatible with the principles of a modern European republic.

Two Sheds

Those seeking divestment, as well as those interested in a proper system of education, are tackling this from the wrong angle.

The current system of local Boards of Management is wide open to corruption and cronyism, and in many cases is being openly abused. Some Boards of Management operate as back-scratching clubs, with the interests of the children and of the teachers being subsidiary to the interests of certain officers.

Absolam

Gebgbegb wrote: »

In terms of ethos I know what it pertains to be.. the same as I know what blood letting, hopi ear candle treatment or consulting with angels pertains to be.

Are you sure you mean 'pertains to be'?

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Here is what hopi ear candle treatment pertains to be:"The art of ear candling (also known as Thermal Auricular Therapy) handed down by our ancestors, has been rediscovered as a pleasant and non-invasive treatment of the ears and a great healing tool. Hopi Ear Candles are often used today as a relaxing treatment to ease away the stresses of our Western culture and to address a number of problems relating to the ear, neck and face areas." Does that make it true?

I think that's what some people claim hopi ear candle treatment is? We can be assured that hopi ear candle treatment is an ear candle treatment, just Ethos is is a Greek word meaning "character" that is used to describe the guiding beliefs or ideals that characterize a community, nation, or ideology.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

In the same vein I don't think ascribing a 'religious ethos' or 'religious education' to other forms of education really means anything. Sure, they can stick a motto on their website ...in Latin of course ("Thermal Auricular Therapy" sounds legit doesn't it)).

Which? A religious ethos is obviously a different thing to a religious education, so which one do you think doesn't mean anything? My own opinion is both mean different things, but I'm not sure how one might go about ascribing either to another form of education. I suppose you might ascribe a persons religious ethos to their earlier religious education, if they had both?

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I would really like if you could quote any Ethos or mission statement from any school and we could examine what is so 'christian' about promoting sport, academia, science, or the arts?

I'm not sure why you think it is so Christian to promote sport, academia, science, or the arts, but really, googling the ethos and mission statements of schools is as easy as googling the dictionary definition of 'ethos' and 'science'. Do you really need me to do it for you?

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

The "ethos" is really micromanaged by the school's Board of Management. In a denominational school, the chairman of the BOM is typically the local Godman, and his vision/interpretation of ethos is obtained from "on high", and implemented within the school by the school principal (who he has previously interviewed and appointed).

I think you probably mean Bishop; Godman isn't a term much used in Irish religious circles as far as I know. 'On high' I'm guessing is probably the Council of Bishops. Which, as far as denominational education institutions go, is probably a pretty sensible way of managing 'ethos'.

recedite wrote: »

The other claim made there..could be described as an endorsement of the principle the tyranny of the majority. Which is not compatible with the principles of a modern European republic.

It's interesting that 'tyranny of the majority' tends to be the go-to cry of those who don't get the democratic result they want.
Happily, the Irish education system has a built in Constitutional proof against tyranny of the majority; the State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State. Every single parent is free to decide what schooling they will provide their child as long as it meets the minimum curricular requirements.

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

I think you probably mean Bishop; Godman isn't a term much used in Irish religious circles as far as I know. 'On high' I'm guessing is probably the Council of Bishops.

Unlikely a bishop would be the chairman of a local BOM. More likely it would be the humble PP or CoI rector. I like Local Godman as a handy catch-all term.
"On high" is wherever they get their divine inspiration and direction from.
Its not for me to dwell on such matters too much; that way madness lies.

PopePalpatine

I see Absolam is playing semantics as usual.

SpaceTime

I just find it odd that the board of management often seems to be made up of people who have little or nothing to do with life in the school. I know people who are on BOMs who aren't parents or teachers and have no involvement in the community the school is located in, they're just close to the church. They're perfectly nice people, but what they're doing on a national school board of management is beyond me as those roles weren't advertised.

Also why is a parish priest sitting effectively as quasi executive director of a school? In most cases he has no teaching qualifications, he's not an educational academic, not a child psychologist or any kind of expert in this area. It's also extremely unlikely that he has kids in the school (if he's a catholic priest anyway).

I would have assumed that a BOM should be made up of *current* parents (probably elected by the parents), current staff (elected by staff) and the sponsor.

In secondary school it should probably include 2 elected student representatives too.

I actually think schools should be publishing accounts and an annual report of some sort too. I don't think there's anything like enough transparency and they're a major spender of public money.

lazygal

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I see Absolam is playing semantics as usual.

"Insert suprised emoji here"

expectationlost

I was determined not to leave office without starting Junior Cycle reform
http://www.businesspost.ie/#!story/Home/Business+Interview/I+was+determined+not+to+leave+office+without+starting+Junior+Cycle+reform/id/deea4e51-8e34-426d-a92a-7453cb372682
03:55, 9 August 2015 by Michael Brennan

profile on Jan O'Sullivan behind paywall

I think probably the more productive route is the one whereby the new schools tend to be multi-denominational,” she said.

inocybe

SpaceTime wrote: »

I actually think schools should be publishing accounts and an annual report of some sort too. I don't think there's anything like enough transparency and they're a major spender of public money.

Yes! It would be nice to know where exactly the 'voluntary' contributions are going. My sons school doesn't even use the term voluntary anymore, they just send out a demand for the 'school fee'. This is a VEC school.

expectationlost

Aineoil wrote: »

On RTE 1 Radio The the moment.

RTÉ - This Week
Three years after a major report on school patronage, the report’s original author Professor John Coolahan and chairperson of the Catholic Schools Partnership Fr Michael Drumm discuss why so few Catholic schools have been divested to cater for non-Catholic children.

http://podcast.rasset.ie/podcasts/audio/2015/0809/20150809_rteradio1-thisweek-areportons_c20826912_20826932_232_.mp3

SpaceTime

inocybe wrote: »

Yes! It would be nice to know where exactly the 'voluntary' contributions are going. My sons school doesn't even use the term voluntary anymore, they just send out a demand for the 'school fee'. This is a VEC school.

As a matter of interest, how much is that fee?

lazygal

SpaceTime wrote: »

As a matter of interest, how much is that fee?

And what happens if you don't pay?

expectationlost

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'll be voting on this, the 8th and repealing the blasphemy law as well as economics.

If I get the wrong answers on the door, there'll be no preferences going to them. Simple as that really.

what if you get the right answers on the door, what has that got to do with what will actually happen?

SpaceTime

expectationlost wrote: »

what if you the right answers on the door, what has that got to do with what will actually happen?

Well it's a start anyway. I'm picking people who best represent me, not expecting them to be omnipotent!

byhookorbycrook

BOMS: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/going_to_primary_school/boards_of_management.html

"Who is on the board"

The composition of the board of management for schools with more than one teacher is

Two direct nominees of the patron
Two parents of children enrolled in the school (one mother and one father) elected by the parents
The principal
One other teacher elected by the teaching staff.
Two extra members agreed by the representatives of the patron, teachers and parents.

There are particular rules for boards of management for convent and monastery schools in relation to the teacher representatives. If the principal is a religious, the elected teacher-member must be a lay person and, if the principal is a lay person, it is recommended that the elected teacher-member be a religious. In one-teacher schools, there is one direct nominee of the patron, one teacher representative, one parent and one extra member proposed by these nominees.

There are certain criteria set out for choosing the 2 community representatives on the board of management.

The people appointed must have a commitment to the ethos of the school. In the case of Catholic schools, they must have an understanding of and commitment to Catholic education as outlined in the Deed of Trust for Catholic Schools. For Church of Ireland schools, they must be members of that Church; in Presbyterian schools, they must also be church members and in Muslim schools they should be members of the Muslim community in Ireland (in all cases the patron of the school can decide otherwise). For Educate Together schools they must have a commitment to the ethos of the school.
They must have skills that are complementary to the board's requirements
They must be interested in education but normally should not be parents of students currently attending the school or teachers currently on the staff
In Gaeltacht schools and Gaelscoileanna, they are expected to have a good knowledge of the Irish language.
The need to maintain a gender balance must be a consideration

The patron appoints the chairman of the board.

The Rules set out in detail how the parents' representatives are to be chosen, including the notice to be given to all parents, how replacements are chosen, etc.

In general, members of the board may not hold any interest in the school property or get paid for serving on the board. The Education Act 1998 explicitly clarifies that being on the board does not confer any property interest on a board member. Employees, other than the teacher representatives, may not be on the board.

expectationlost

SpaceTime wrote: »

Well it's a start anyway. I'm picking people who best represent me, not expecting them to be omnipotent!

what was in Labour last manifesto

page 61 http://michaelpidgeon.com/manifestos/docs/lab/Labour%20GE%202011.pdf

and the programme for government http://michaelpidgeon.com/manifestos/docs/pfgs/PfG%202011%20-%20FG-Lab.pdf

In areas of demographic growth, Shared Educational Campuses will be the preferred
model for future development of educational infrastructure. New schools will be built to
grow with their communities and to provide for more interactive, child-friendly model of
education.

Local authorities will be required to complete Educational Impact Assessment on
residential zoning, to identify potential need for schools.

We will negotiate the transfer of school infrastructure currently owned by 18 religious
orders cited in Ryan Report, at no extra cost, to the State. In principle, school buildings
and land will be zoned for educational use, so that they cannot easily be sold and lost to
system.


Patronage
We will initiate a time-limited Forum on Patronage and Pluralism in the Primary Sector
to allow all stakeholders including parents to engage in open debate on change of
patronage in communities where it is appropriate and necessary.
The Forum will have
concise terms of reference and will sit for a maximum of 12 months.

The Forum’s recommendations will be drawn up into White Paper for consideration and
implementation by Government to ensure that education system can provide sufficiently
diverse number of schools, catering for all religions and none.
We will give parents and local communities the opportunity to have a say in the
patronage of existing and future schools, for example by direct ballot.
We will also move towards a more pluralist system of patronage at second level,
recognising a wider number of patrons.
People of non-faith or minority religious backgrounds and publically identified LGBT
people should not be deterred from training or taking up employment as teachers in the
State.

how much of this was done and to what degree

there was no new forum, they passed? an enrolement law, and altered section 37 but not for the non-faith, gave people a say on schools but didn't provide them for many that need choice, there a few ET secondary schools, only a few schools divested...

but they themselves admit that didn't tackle the ultimate problem of church monopoly

haveringchick

inocybe wrote: »

Yes! It would be nice to know where exactly the 'voluntary' contributions are going. My sons school doesn't even use the term voluntary anymore, they just send out a demand for the 'school fee'. This is a VEC school.

Where do you imagine the contribution goes?

SpaceTime

haveringchick wrote: »

Where do you imagine the contribution goes?

Given the level of lack of transparency in other bodies : charities, state bodies etc etc, it would seem prudent to have published accounts that could be consulted.

All predominantly publicly funded bodies should be fully compliant with public accounting rules.

Ireland's full of various state funded, yet unaccountable, bodies.

inocybe

SpaceTime wrote: »

As a matter of interest, how much is that fee?

250. If you have 'difficulties' you're invited to meet the head to arrange a payment plan.

SpaceTime

inocybe wrote: »

250. If you have 'difficulties' you're invited to meet the head to arrange a payment plan.

So basically threat of humiliation.

Sounds involuntary.

lazygal

inocybe wrote: »

250. If you have 'difficulties' you're invited to meet the head to arrange a payment plan.

If you decline the invitation what happens?

inocybe

SpaceTime wrote: »

So basically threat of humiliation.

Sounds involuntary.

Another school near me wont provide a locker key until the voluntary school fee is paid

lazygal

haveringchick wrote: »

Where do you imagine the contribution goes?

If it is spent properly there's no reason not to tell parents via published accounts where it goes. I'd like to know whether its spent on groups like Pure In Heart, for example.

byhookorbycrook

SpaceTime wrote: »

Given the level of lack of transparency in other bodies : charities, state bodies etc etc, it would seem prudent to have published accounts that could be consulted.

All predominantly publicly funded bodies should be fully compliant with public accounting rules.

Ireland's full of various state funded, yet unaccountable, bodies.

Most schools that I know publish accounts at the parents' AGM, though many parents choose not to be there! I'd presume you could get a copy even if you didn't appear at the meeting, that's what happens in ours anyhow.

One eyed Jack

SpaceTime wrote: »

Given the level of lack of transparency in other bodies : charities, state bodies etc etc, it would seem prudent to have published accounts that could be consulted.

All predominantly publicly funded bodies should be fully compliant with public accounting rules.

Ireland's full of various state funded, yet unaccountable, bodies.

State funded schools are fully compliant with public accounting rules -

It has overall responsibility for the school's finances. It is obliged to have comprehensive insurance cover for the school. It must keep proper accounts, which may be audited by the Department of Education and Skills and/or the Comptroller and Auditor General. Its annual accounts must be available to the patron and the school community.

Boards of Management in Primary Schools

SpaceTime

Public accounting rules here for state funded bodies are exceptionally lax though.

We couldn't even get total number of employees for one of the voluntary hospitals in Dublin at one stage!!!

One eyed Jack

SpaceTime wrote: »

Public accounting rules here for state funded bodies are exceptionally lax though.

We couldn't even get total number of employees for one of the voluntary hospitals in Dublin at one stage!!!

But that's a completely different issue from the issue you originally raised in relation to schools?

inocybe

lazygal wrote: »

If you decline the invitation what happens?

might be finding that out this year Though I think I will attend to make the point that if they got rid of the stupid crested uniform I would be able to save a good part towards paying them :mad:

lazygal

inocybe wrote: »

might be finding that out this year Though I think I will attend to make the point that if they got rid of the stupid crested uniform I would be able to save a good part towards paying them :mad:

Those crested uniforms should be banned! Utterly pointless waste of money.