School patronage

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

Who says you can't have your cake and eat it?

They were never going to auction that land, it was just a ruse to shake down the taxpayer for more money :mad:

Disgusting.

lazygal

So Stephen Donnelly is delighted to announce the state is paying for something that it shouldn't have to buy in the first place. What a logical chap.

robindch

The Minister of Education has announced an inquiry into the way public funds are used to pay third-level chaplains:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/inquiry-into-way-public-funds-used-to-pay-third-level-chaplains-1.2382881

Irish Times wrote:

The Minister for Education has ordered an investigation into the way public funds are used to pay for third-level college chaplains, some of whom receive €50,000 a year. The majority of chaplains in universities, institutes of technology and colleges of education are Catholic and usually male. The Higher Education Authority (HEA) confirmed it was drawing up the terms of the investigation, which will examine the way publicly-funded colleges appoint chaplains.

Recruitment procedures and pay for chaplains vary widely, with some directly employed by colleges and other provided by churches as a contracted service. Chaplains’ salaries are met by the colleges in some cases. In other instances they are paid by their churches, with their services contracted by the colleges. Minister for Education Jan O’Sullivan has said appointments of chaplains to salaried posts in the public sector must comply with the sector’s appointment and procurement criteria. In addition, appointments should not breach the employment control framework which sets limits on the number of employees in the public service.

The HEA said it was not known how many chaplains were working in colleges. Nor were their denominations known, how they were appointed, how much they were paid, or how they were paid, said a spokesman. “The Higher Education Authority allocates recurrent funding to all HEA designated higher education institutions and the internal disbursement of funding is then a matter for the individual institution. Most third level institutions provide chaplaincy services for their student body and decisions on such provision are a matter for the individual institutions as autonomous bodies. “The HEA is undertaking a survey on the recruitment of chaplaincy services and the exact details are currently being finalised as to the scope of the exercise,” said the spokesman.

A number of institutes of technology, which are secular institutions established by legislation, employ chaplains directly. Waterford IT (WIT) directly employs one. A spokeswoman said: “Since the establishment of the college in 1970 the chaplain has always been appointed by the college on the recommendation of the Catholic bishop. The post has not been advertised nor have interviews taken place.” She said the chaplain’s salary was funded by WIT and was based on the “lecturer salary scale”.

Letterkenny IT has three chaplains – Roman Catholic, Presbyterian and Church Of Ireland – but these are contracted from their respective churches. A spokeswoman said: “There is no salary. Contracts for services in the academic year 2014/15 were €50,000 to the [Catholic] Diocese of Raphoe, €9,000 to the COI Dioceses of Derry and Raphoe and €9,000 to the Presbytry of Derry and Raphoe.” This €68,000 was funded by the IT, using “public and other funds”.

Dundalk IT also has a contract for its chaplaincy service, with the Catholic Dioceses of Armagh at a cost of €30,000 per year, and an honorarium contract with the Presbyterian Church for €1,000 per year. Trinity College, Dublin, which has four chaplains, said they were “appointed and paid by their churches. Trinity doesn’t provide a salary for chaplains”. A spokeswoman for the Department of Education said: “It has been agreed with the HEA that they undertake a review of chaplaincy appointments in the third-level sector and while the exact details are currently being finalised, it is expected that the survey will look at the costs to institutions of providing chaplaincy services and the process used by institutions in procuring these services.”

Fr Alan Hilliard, who is one of five chaplains at Dublin Institute of Technology (DIT), sees his role as less religious, more one of “accompanying students” while they are at the college. He is one three Roman Catholic chaplains at DIT, a college spread across five campuses and with a student body of 20,000. The other two chaplains are from the Church of Ireland. Though all five are employed by their respective churches, Fr Hilliard and Rev Rob Jones of the Church of Ireland are the only two ordained chaplains.
At DIT since 2011, he says the service he provides is different to that offered by student counsellors or health workers.

“It’s less formal. Often students might just knock on the door for a chat. They might come in to talk about bullying, problems with paying their fees, dealing with a suicide in the family, or general loneliness. “For instance, the tragedy in Berkeley has really affected many of the students here.” Eoghan Culligan (21) a student at DIT, Aungier Street, was among the six students who died when a balcony collapsed in California in June. “I was out in Berkeley after that and we held a memorial service here.” He said he would not bring up religion with students. “If a student asked me to pray with them I would, but I would never suggest it.

“I find through my work as a priest I have developed skills I bring to the role as chaplain. I have worked with immigrants and I find that very useful working with an increasingly multicultural student population.” A spokeswoman said DIT did not directly employ chaplains. “The Institute has an agreement in place with two churches . . .The current cost to DIT of the service is €260,000 per annum to cover salaries and a small non-pay budget for events. This is paid to the respective churches on invoice,” she said. The cost of the chaplaincy service came “out of the student services budget along with other services such as counselling, health centre, careers development etc.”

BTW, I believe AI did some or all of the groundwork which lead to this - well done to all concerned in any case.

Hotblack Desiato

Great work by AI.

expectationlost

Author of grow in love respond to creationism accusation http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/creationism-in-schools-1.2384349
says
New Religious schoolbook not creationist, but only God can say why world, created not science

However, science is one form of knowledge. Scientific theories can tell us much about the world but it cannot explain why it came to be or whether there is any ultimate meaning or purpose to life. There are limits to the reach of science.

Part of the role of schools is to pass on trustworthy ways of making sense of the world and one’s place in the world. In a Catholic school, the belief that God made the world, is actively present in it today and that there is an ultimate purpose, value and meaning to life, is central to its worldview.

expectationlost

Dail Qs on Patronage



https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2015-10-06a.115&s=%22School+Patronage%22#g123

Contrary to an article in The Irish Timestoday by Fintan O'Toole which stated only one school had been divested, eight schools have been divested, namely, Tramore Educate Together national school, ETNS, County Waterford, Trim ETNS, County Meath, Malahide-Portmarnock ETNS, Kinsealy, County Dublin, Newtownwhite ETNS, Ballina, County Mayo, Canalway ETNS, Basin Lane, Dublin 8, Tuam ETNS, County Galway, New Ross ETNS, and Gaelscoil na Laochra, Birr, County Offaly.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-five-reasons-why-nobody-believes-the-government-s-capital-plan-1.2379842

How many schools have been “divested” in this way? One – and that under conditions that have proved almost unworkable.

must check those schools.


To ask the Minister for Education and Skills her views on the lack of diversity of school patronage in areas of high multicultural populations, such as west Dublin at both primary and secondary levels; and if she will make a statement on the matter.
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-10-06a.70&s=%22School+Patronage%22#g71.q

is it enough?


Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
https://www.kildarestreet.com/committees/?id=2015-09-30a.154#g366

Perhaps I will put my question to the Minister of State briefly. He mentioned that the issue of school transport had been addressed, but he will be aware of a situation that I raised with him last summer. It has been determined that the nearest school is through a mountain pass that is not traversable. The students cannot use school transport and, as such, must pay to attend a school that they have always attended. At the time there was talk of a review of the school transport scheme with a view to revising that part of it. How does that review stand and what are the chances of a change?
Another point has been raised with me a number of times about students being affected by the nearest school rule. It relates to questions of ethos and language. One can travel to the nearest school of ethos or language, but if the Catholic religion is one's ethos, one cannot travel to the nearest Catholic school if an education and training board, ETB, school is closer. If one is of the Protestant denomination, however, one can pass the ETB school to attend a Protestant school. I agree with the latter, but this difference in opportunities has been raised with me by the parents of Catholic students. Will the Minister of State comment in this regard?

curious

Absolam

expectationlost wrote: »

its seems to be critical of the mixing of religion and education

Which doesn't really have anything to do with how badly it is (or isn't) written, to be fair.

expectationlost wrote: »

it seems to be lets concrete religion into any new state schools play book

That's sounds like the opposite of criticising the mixing of religion and education though?
But I think the intent was to convey the notion that parents don't (to the author) appear to be seeking out schools which absent religion entirely, but rather schools that give their children a broader appreciation of religions. Or maybe I'm reading her wrong too.

expectationlost wrote: »

not really

Perhaps some find it easier to paint illusions than others then :-)

recedite

Dail question;

One can travel to the nearest school of ethos or language, but if the Catholic religion is one's ethos, one cannot travel to the nearest Catholic school if an education and training board, ETB, school is closer. If one is of the Protestant denomination, however, one can pass the ETB school to attend a Protestant school. I agree with the latter, but this difference in opportunities has been raised with me by the parents of Catholic students. Will the Minister of State comment in this regard?

Minister's Reply

It is generally regarded that an ETB covers all religious requirements. I understand what has been said and I shall come back to the Deputy on the matter. The original provision was to cater for minority religions.

The logic of this reply is that neither RC nor CoI pupils should receive special school transport to pass an ETB school on their way to a denominational school. But in fact, one set does; the protestants.

On the other hand, there are cases in which agnostic or other pupils wish to avoid the denominational schools and go to the ETB school instead. In these cases, the pupils are denied eligibility for school transport if the bus passes an RC school on the way to the ETB school. But if it passes a CoI school, that is invisible to the system.

Basically, the system assumes that all people default to RC, unless they declare themselves to be protestant. Therefore, ETB and RC schools are the same, and CoI schools are for anyone declaring themselves to be protestant.

Cabaal

All children in Ireland are equal....but some children are more equal then others

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/hindu-family-fails-to-get-place-for-child-in-local-school-1.2388898

Roopesh Panicker and his wife Najamol Kalangara say they considered leaving Ireland when their daughter Eva (4) could not get a place in a nearby Catholic national school.

They were unaware of the pressure on school places in parts of Dublin, but when friends mentioned it, they applied to six more.

On November 14th, 2014, they got a letter from the first school saying there was no place for Eva, but she would be put on a waiting list and could also apply for September 2016.

“I called the school. The lady said we were on the wait list. She could not assure us of a place, even in 2016. Then she asked if we were aware of the enrolment policy, that it was a Catholic school.

The principal wrote to them on November 20th, 2014, saying their application had been late. “We do not operate a policy of exclusion of non-Catholic children . . . For your information, under Irish law, Catholic schools are entitled to prioritise enrolment for Catholic children.”

Why say this? Is it a case of we don't...but we bloody well can if we want to so there!

He wrote to Minister for Education Jan O’Sullivan, Minister for Justice Frances Fitzgerald and Archbishop of Dublin Dr Diarmuid Martin telling them about his concern that Eva could not get a school place within walking distance of her home. “Is it her fault she is born to non-Catholic Irish parents? Is it fair to discriminate children on the basis of religion?”

Both Ministers wrote back, setting out the legal right of schools to set enrolment policies. He says he got a call from the archbishop’s office which “really made me explode”. When Mr Panicker said he had no problem with any religion, he says the caller suggested he have Eva baptised.

A spokeswoman for the diocese said there was no record of such a phone conversation having taken place.

Yeah, I'm sure they realised they suggested something seriously stupid and decided to pretend they didn't suggest it

Hotblack Desiato

Disgraceful. But it'll take scandals involving minority religions to get any change - officialdom (whatever about some fool phoning from the archbishop's palace) cannot deny their world view is valid and sincerely held

Atheists in Ireland are officially just lapsed catholics.

Trent Houseboat

Both Ministers wrote back, setting out the legal right of schools to set enrolment policies.

Doesn't mention if either of them wrote back with any suggestions as to what the family might do.
Rather than trying to help the poor family they appear to be absolving themselves of any blame.

robindch

Trent Houseboat wrote: »

Rather than trying to help the poor family they appear to be absolving themselves of any blame.

In all fairness, it's a political issue with an election on the near horizon -- it would be inappropriate for the responsible politician to accept responsibility.

Cabaal

Trent Houseboat wrote: »

Doesn't mention if either of them wrote back with any suggestions as to what the family might do.
Rather than trying to help the poor family they appear to be absolving themselves of any blame.

So business as usual then?
State never wanted to accept responsibility for anything that happened in state paid for schools - http://www.thejournal.ie/louise-okeeffe-1286271-Jan2014/

Peregrinus

Well, the article that Cabaal links to points out that she did get a place in a school (a Catholic school, as it happens) but one that was some distance away. I believe that the Dept of Education will intervene to ensure that every child is offered a school place (as is their Constitutional right) but it's not clear from the article whether Departmental intervention was necessary in this child's case.

Cabaal

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, the article that Cabaal links to points out that she did get a place in a school (a Catholic school, as it happens) but one that was some distance away. I believe that the Dept of Education will intervene to ensure that every child is offered a school place (as is their Constitutional right) but it's not clear from the article whether Departmental intervention was necessary in this child's case.

Meanwhile everything is ok and religion discrimination is just fine and dandy, go about your business people...

Meanwhile in 1950's America, Black people can go to school, just not certain schools...because those schools should be allowed decide what colour skin they accept. So that means there's no problems.

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

.. she did get a place in a school (a Catholic school, as it happens) but one that was some distance away.

As her dad says;

Eva got a place in a school a half-hour drive away. “It is a big Catholic school with lots of spaces..

So lets look at the results of this state policy;

1. A little girl gets forcibly segregated from the other kids on her street, simply because she comes from a minority background.

2. She gets to attend a school which for whatever reason is a less popular school, one which is avoided by people who have a choice.

3. RCC gets paid by the state to manage a school of lesser facilities, which its own people avoid, but where others are dumped. These pupils are then subjected to RC indoctrination, despite them not particularly wanting to be in a RC school in the first place. Effectively it becomes a state funded missionary school.

4. Dept. of Education will not sanction the building of another school in this area. There is insufficient demand for another school as evidenced by the spare places in the missionary school.
Neither will RCC divest any of their schools, because nobody is compelling them to. As a result there will be no extra ET school (or any other patronage model) available for the foreseeable future. Regardless of how many parents want it.

It makes me angry.

Cabaal

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/10/13/educate-apart/

The Educate Together Facebook page today

This morning’s Irish Times reveals how Hindu couple Roopesh Panicker and his wife Najamol Kalangara struggled to find a place for their four-year-old daughter Eva at any of the Catholic schools near their home.

They were repeatedly told, under the schools’ enrolment policies, the schools were entitled to give preference to Catholic children.

Eva is now attending a Catholic school a half-hour’s drive away.

Mr Panicker said

“It is a big Catholic school with lots of spaces. But all the children on our road go to the school across the park. She asks, ‘Daddy why do I not go to the same school as my friends’? I don’t want to fill her head about discrimination, so I tell her little lies about how her school is bigger and better. But she will keep asking and I will have to tell her eventually.”

Further to this, comments on the Educate Together website suggest this problem only worsens when parents are trying to find a secondary school place for their non-Catholic children.

Anyone?

lazygal

I've already been told by the Dept that no plans for new primary or secondary schools are in place for my area as all schools in the area are capable of catering for the demographics in the area. The old 'open your own school' matra won't help us-the Dept has said as much to me when I wrote asking about secular options for our children. We have our children down for an ET school for years now, and hope to send them to the feeder secondary school after primary school. Secondary school is a big problem for parents in our position, especially if you want a mixed school.

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

As her dad says;

So lets look at the results of this state policy . . .

Well, I basically agree with you, recedite, though I do think you overstate your case a little in places. She was "forcibly segregated"? Really? I missed the bit in the newspaper report where the use of force was mentioned. And your reference to the pupils in the school she does attend "not particularly wanting to be in a RC school in the first place" seems to have been plucked out of the air. We know that the first choice for her was, in fact, a Catholic school, and that's still the school her parents would prefer she would attend. We know nothing about the first choice of the other kids in the school. For all we know, that school is their first choice.

But, yes, it's disgraceful that in (presumably) suburban Dublin she has to be driven half an hour to school and back again each day, when there are several schools closer to her home.

lazygal

All but one school near us is faith based. If we can't get into the ET are we really 'choosing' for our children to attend a faith school?

Peregrinus

lazygal wrote: »

All but one school near us is faith based. If we can't get into the ET are we really 'choosing' for our children to attend a faith school?

No. But rec seems to be assuming that the children in the school that this girl attends are there because they can't get into other schools, and that they would prefer non-Catholic schools. There is no evidence of this in the article. The only pupil whose preference we know is the girl concerned, and her preferred school is in fact for a Catholic school.

expectationlost

Peregrinus wrote: »

No. But rec seems to be assuming that the children in the school that this girl attends are there because they can't get into other schools, and that they would prefer non-Catholic schools. There is no evidence of this in the article. The only pupil whose preference we know is the girl concerned, and her preferred school is in fact for a Catholic school.

her parents preference is for the nearest school

expectationlost

Primary school teaching should include various faiths, study says http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/primary-school-teaching-should-include-various-faiths-study-says-1.2391664

, many countries, including Denmark, Sweden, Norway, the UK and Estonia, took “a religious studies approach… where religious education is the responsibility of the state”.

think there is a 'not' missing from the article

Examiner reported on it in june http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/teachers-need-more-help-to-make-schools-inclusive-339572.html

ESRI commissioned? published in March http://www.esri.ie/publications/religious-diversity-in-primary-schools-reflections-from-the-republic-of-ireland/

Religious Diversity in Primary Schools: Reflections from the Republic of Ireland
March 24, 2015 | Journal Article

Authors: Daniel Faas , Merike Darmody
British Journal of Religious Education

Growing secularisation of the population and the arrival of new culturally and religiously diverse migrants are posing new challenges to schools in the Republic of Ireland (Ireland). These challenges are particularly acute in Irish primary schools, the majority of which are under Catholic patronage. Recent changes have necessitated an extensive consultation process about how to accommodate religious diversity and have resulted in some important policy changes. This article contributes to an ongoing debate about state-run denominational schools and the place of Religious Education in these. While set in the Irish context, the article is also relevant for educators and academics in other jurisdictions as it describes recent policy developments and steps taken in addressing cultural and religious diversity in schools.

full think behind academic paywall http://www.esri.ie/publications/religious-diversity-in-primary-schools-reflections-from-the-republic-of-ireland/

Hotblack Desiato

expectationlost wrote: »

think there is a 'not' missing from the article

Think not.
If religious education is the responsibility of the state, then there's at least a fighting chance it'll actually be education about religions, and ideally including non-belief positions as well, rather than indoctrination in one religion.

Although they do seem to be labouring under the misconception that there is a widespread and effective ability to opt out of religious indoctrination in denominational schools here.

Peregrinus

expectationlost wrote: »

her parents preference is for the nearest school

Yes, I know. But it is, in fact, a Catholic school, and the parents have no objection at all to sending their child to a Catholic school, and have never expressed a preference for a school of any other ethos.

I made this point to refute Recedite's assertion that the pupils at the school she does attend don't particularly want to be in an RC school. There is absolutely no evidence about what they want or don't want, except for this one child, and the evidence in her case is that her parents have no objection to a Catholic school. The applied, according to the article, to six schools, all Catholic. Given that they live in suburban Dublin and actually attend a school half-an-hour's drive away, there would be some non-Catholic schools to which they could plausibly apply but they don't appear to have applied for any of them. So I don't see any evidence at all that the ethos of the school is an issue for them.

Absolam

expectationlost wrote: »

Primary school teaching should include various faiths, study says
"any countries, including Denmark, Sweden, Norway, the UK and Estonia, took “a religious studies approach… where religious education is the responsibility of the state”
think there is a 'not' missing from the article

Probably not.
In Denmark 'Kristendomskundskab' is compulsory in schools, under government ministry, and as the name suggests gives preference/primacy to education in Danish Lutheran religious tradition. It's not a Constitutional requirement though, unlike for instance Germany where it is, and children who are part of no mainstream religion have to either take part in the classes of one of the mainstream religions or opt out and attend classes in Ethics or Philosophy instead.
In Norway 'Religion, philosophy and ethics' is a compulsory school subject, with a heavy tie to Christianity in the curriculum (and at least half of the Government must belong to the state Lutheran church!).
In Sweden education about all major world religions is compulsory in public schools, which is what I think most people here would like to see RE defined as in Ireland....

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Think not.
If religious education is the responsibility of the state, then there's at least a fighting chance it'll actually be education about religions, and ideally including non-belief positions as well, rather than indoctrination in one religion.
Although they do seem to be labouring under the misconception that there is a widespread and effective ability to opt out of religious indoctrination in denominational schools here.

So it does appear at first glance that education about religion is a great aspiration, but not really the primary feature of many European compulsory religious education systems. Ireland may actually be ahead of the curve in at least having a Constitutional basis for opting children out of religious education in schools....

alaimacerc

Absolam wrote: »

In Sweden education about all major world religions is compulsory in public schools, which is what I think most people here would like to see RE defined as in Ireland....

Of course. Enemy recognition is a key element of any good operational strategy!

Ireland may actually be ahead of the curve in at least having a Constitutional basis for opting children out of religious education in schools....

The "may" here seems a key qualifier, even by the standards of your own boundless (and for my money frequently overreaching) admiration for the constitution...

alaimacerc

lazygal wrote: »

All but one school near us is faith based. If we can't get into the ET are we really 'choosing' for our children to attend a faith school?

Sensu Hobson, I guess.

Absolam

alaimacerc wrote: »

Of course. Enemy recognition is a key element of any good operational strategy!

Personally I was thinking children are more likely to become more tolerant of each other through better understanding, but I suppose there will be people with similar opinions to the one you expressed as well.

alaimacerc wrote: »

The "may" here seems a key qualifier, even by the standards of your own boundless (and for my money frequently overreaching) admiration for the constitution...

Certainly, if I didn't think there would be people who'd disagree I wouldn't have said 'may'. It seems my phrasing 'may' well have been justified.

alaimacerc

Absolam wrote: »

Personally I was thinking children are more likely to become more tolerant of each other through better understanding, but I suppose there will be people with similar opinions to the one you expressed as well.

I'm not hearing the difference. Are you perhaps confusing rejection of intolerance on the one hand, with intolerance of its victims on the other?

Certainly, if I didn't think there would be people who'd disagree I wouldn't have said 'may'. It seems my phrasing 'may' well have been justified.

It seems inarguable that the point can be argued against. Is it arguable that it can be argued for, however?

The de facto situation in Ireland is terrible, by any European standard. if the Irish constitution necessitates that (as seems to be your general mood music on this topic -- isn't it unfortunate that the odd person finds themselves in such a situation, butbutbut, religious and property rights must prevail!), then why is there anything commendable about it? Simply that it precludes some hypothetical yet-worse outcome that doesn't actually in any case arise elsewhere?