Converting a Rio 180 to marine... do-able on a budget?

Sleepy

Our axolotyl didn't last so long, we had real problems keeping the tank cool enough for him over the summer Tank is set up and still running in anticipation of another one but I'm starting to think that might be a bad idea.

Looking online I see a number of people have converted Rio 180's to be marine systems and I'm wondering if anyone here has done it and what it'd be likely to cost me here in Ireland.

Am I right in thinking I'd be looking at about €500 to get the live rock, live sand (presumably standard children's play sand isn't up to scratch for a marine environment?), a hang off the back skimmer, a couple of power heads and a marine lights set-up? Would be happy enough to stock it on an "as I can afford it" basis.

Any thoughts?

Silverfish

I've been researching a nano marine, and I *think* you can do without the skimmer if you stock lightly. Not a clue if that's the case, but if you could stock low until you get a skimmer that would be less blow to the budget straight off.

I think you need a whatsit for measuring salinity, that sounds important.

If you were struggling with keeping water cold enough for him, then I wouldn't get another, it's easier to keep a tank warm than it is to keep it cold.

Sleepy

Exactly what I was thinking. Wasn't aware a marine tank could run without a skimmer... Really need to read up more on it but need to figure out if it's anyway do-able budget wise!

m4r10

Some are running an external filter with only LR in it, provided you keep the stock low, as silverfish suggested. Would look nicer with the canister tucked under the stand than with the hang-on skimmer attached to the back of the tank, especially for a small-ish tank. As for a TDS (whatsit for measuring salinity), if you buy the water from a LFS you wouldn't need one.

Silverfish

I think a TDS meter is for measuring total dissolved solids, Mr Silverfish has one for checking water for coffee, I'm not allowed go near the fishtanks with it, even though it's something that'd be useful for shrimp.

I think the thing for measuring salinity is a refractometer or hydrometer?

Even if you went with just live sand and live rock and some snails or sea slugs (love those guys) or crabs at the start, there'd still be stuff to look at til you could get to adding fish.

Sleepy

Would that not get very expensive over time as you do water changes etc.?

Just got the go-ahead from the o/h so this is now the plan for the tank.

In terms of equipment, I have a decent air pump, the original filter from the tank (which I've taken out), a Tetra EX 600 external filter.

Here's a pic of the tank as it's currently set up:


I'm thinking the background could look quite cool under marine lights and with some corals in front of it?

m4r10

Silverfish wrote: »

I think a TDS meter is for measuring total dissolved solids, Mr Silverfish has one for checking water for coffee, I'm not allowed go near the fishtanks with it, even though it's something that'd be useful for shrimp.

I think the thing for measuring salinity is a refractometer or hydrometer?

I stand corrected then as I read about them briefly (I'm a freshwater guy myself). After googling the subject, it is possible to measure the salinity with a TDS, but it's more difficult as other substances dissolved in water will affect the readings, so a refractometer is a better option.

@Sleepy: The water changes for marine tanks are not done to the same percentage as in a freshwater tank, maybe 10-20%, plus whatever you need to top-up with RO water due to evaporation. The alternative is to invest in a RO unit, but for small tanks that's not a viable solution.
Again, this is only hearsay, not first-hand experience, I'm sure the true saltwater guys/gals will chime in sooner or later.

Sleepy

Came across this on IrishFishKeepers: http://www.irishfishkeepers.com/index.php/forum/12-marine-equipment/51039-converting-a-rio-180-to-marine

Seemingly, using the Organic Aqua system, all I'd need would be live rock (presumably new substrate?), some new lights, a powerhead and the Organic Aqua stuff...

i.e. no need for any serious amount of hardware beyond what I already have e.g. sump, RO kit, skimmer etc.

Anyone got any experience of it? Any ideas on how much it'd cost for the requisite Organic Aqua chemicals?

él statutorio

I have a Rio 180 that I converted to marine.

Keep an eye on the for sale section of irishfishkeepers and irishfishforum there's usually live rock and live sand going on sale pretty regularly.

I put between 50/60kg of live rock in my tank. I don't run a skimmer. I have about 5 or 6 powerheads and between the lot of them they turn over about 5000l an hour. Considering there's probably only about 100l of water in the tank that's a lot.

I keep stock levels low, lots of crabs/snails/shrimp but never more that about 6/7 fish.

I have it up and running like this for about 4 years.

My only advice apart from what I've said above would be to put about an inch of polystyrene on the base of the tank before you add the sand + rock. Fish will dig and live rock will fall (as I learned to my cost) the polystyrene will cushion the base of the tank against any cracks.

Sleepy

Thanks for the reply él statutorio, nice to find someone who's done what I'm looking to! Have a load of other questions if you don't mind?

Have you any filtration in that system aside from the rock? Would it be of any benefit to run the internal filter in the Rio with say ceramic rings / filter wool in it for mechanical filtration and to make use of it's powerhead?

Does polystyrene not contain anything negative for the fish that'd leak out into the water (or is the live sand acting as a natural barrier?)

Do that many powerheads in such a small tank not result in a lot of sloshing water / noise?

Are you keeping corals in the tank or just inverts and fish?

Finally: any pics?

él statutorio

Sleepy wrote: »

Thanks for the reply él statutorio, nice to find someone who's done what I'm looking to! Have a load of other questions if you don't mind?

Have you any filtration in that system aside from the rock? Would it be of any benefit to run the internal filter in the Rio with say ceramic rings / filter wool in it for mechanical filtration and to make use of it's powerhead?

Not really, i still have the Juwel box filter in the corner but it's just filled with crushed live rock. I'd suggest you replace all filter media with live rock (get a small piece and a hammer and start smashing)

Does polystyrene not contain anything negative for the fish that'd leak out into the water (or is the live sand acting as a natural barrier?)

Not that I've seen, I've got two tanks and both have the polystyrene barrier with no issues, One is running 4 years, the other 2 years. Ideally I'd have used a few layers of egg crate but i couldn't source any at the time. I did this after an engineer goby dug too deep and caused a rock to fall and crack a previous tank causing a massive leak.

Do that many powerheads in such a small tank not result in a lot of sloshing water / noise?

Nope, the powerheads are pretty quiet. I don't notice them. The Hydor koralia ones are the best but they are very pricey. I got a few "sun sun" branded ones on amazon and only one has failed on me. The Rio is just powerheads and the little box filter and it actually gives me no trouble at all. The other tank is a Red sea max with internal skimmer and powerheads and that just seems to be a graveyard for corals even though it has better lighting.

Are you keeping corals in the tank or just inverts and fish?

Just inverts and fish in the rio currently, i have one mushroom in there and it's flying along. I had soft corals in it and they were fine (if a little small) so i moved them to the Red Sea max (with better lighting) where they subsequently died. I haven't figured out why they died though. All parameters are correct.

Finally: any pics?

None currently but I've an overhaul planned for November and I'll have before and after pics then.

answered!

Sleepy

One last question, are you using the original powerhead in the Juwel filter box and then another 4/5 dotted around the tank to improve the water circulation?

él statutorio

Sleepy wrote: »

One last question, are you using the original powerhead in the Juwel filter box and then another 4/5 dotted around the tank to improve the water circulation?

Yep, the original powerhead is pretty crap to be honest.
If you have the funds get a few of these or even a few of these I have 2 of the first ones and one of the 2nd in mine. You can't have too much water circulation.

Sleepy

I'm seeing some 5000 lph ones up on ebay for a little over a tenner (http://www.ebay.ie/itm/220-240V-12W-5000L-H-Vibration-Pump-Wave-Maker-Suction-Magnet-Fix-J102A-J102B-/221099347319?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Fish&var=&hash=item7918a153d2) would I be better with magnet attachments of suction cups?

My current thinking is that I'd be looking at the following to get started:

Live Rock / Sand - say €100 to get roughly 40k of rock and 20k of live sand from one of the forums?
3 x 5000lph wave makers - €40
Marine Test kits - €50 (or do I need the full JBL Testlab Marine Test Kit which seems to cost around €100 )
Jewel Marine & Blue T5 Tubes - Juwel 45W 895mm Blue T5 - €46 from Seahorse Aquariums
Aquarium Hydrometer - €7 on ebay

Total €243

And that's before a single fish is stocked... Seeing Seahorse charge €25 for a common Clownfish so guessing I'd be looking at at least another two or three hundred for livestock...

Not a cheap hobby!

él statutorio

Don't bother with suction cups, get the magnets every time. With powerheads you tend to get what you pay for. I've been lucky with the ones I got on amazon in that they haven't failed on me yet. You might be lucky with ebay ones though, your call on that.

20kg of live sand is a lot (remember if it's live sand 20kg will be a wet weight) but if you can't get live sand it's not the end of the world. Regular aquarium sand is fine, what you currently have will do.

Get as much live rock as you can fit in (and afford) you'll thank me for this in the long run. What I run (and what I'm advising you to run) is the "Berlin Method" (google it) of keeping marines. You can add a skimmer to this in the future if you wish (i bought 2 but never unboxed them)

If you can get the full test lab, then do (online is cheaper) you'll have it for years.

If you have T5's currently they'll do just fine, when they blow you can replace them with marine bulbs. Replacing them now is unnecessary.

I wouldn't bother with a hydrometer, i don't have one. If you can get a refractometer then do.

I'd go about it like this.

Cover the base of your tank with polystyrene.
Get your live rock (and sand if you can get it cheap) and lash it in.
Buy about 80L of salt water for seahorse (iirc it's about €5ish per container)
Fill up the tank with your rock/water/sand.
Turn on your filtration/pumps. Maybe have your lights on a timer to come on for a few hours each day.
Leave it like this for about 3 to 4 weeks. Test for nitrate/nitrite etc every week.
After about a month it should've all settled down. If not, wait another week.
Once it's settled, buy maybe half a dozen snails and half dozen hermits (try and get red leg hermits as they stay small). You might lose a few once they've been added.
*At this point the live rock should be fully cured and stuff will be growing on it, you'll have lots of life in there, copepods and stuff. Night time and a flashlight will show loads of critters.
Leave for another 2 weeks.
Test again.

If tests come up clear then buy 1/2 small fish (chromis or damsels).
Wait another 2 weeks.

Add one or two more fish.
Wait another fortnight.

Repeat above til you get to about 6-8 fish. Once it's settled you can add inverts like shrimp and soft corals. (NB, if you've ever, ever, EVER, used copper based medications in your RIO make sure you clean it immaculately {I'd use a bleach solution}. Copper in any form is lethal to inverts.)

Keep an eye on the forums for fish and inverts too, they can sometimes be cheaper than the shops.

Sleepy

Huge amount of reading to do I think!

Does live sand not act as part of the filtration system whereas the basic children's play sand I'm using wouldn't? Also it'd be a lot finer than the live sand I've seen for sale to date, wouldn't this make it more likely to get blown around by the powerheads and leave the tank looking very messy?

él statutorio

Sleepy wrote: »

Huge amount of reading to do I think!

Does live sand not act as part of the filtration system whereas the basic children's play sand I'm using wouldn't? Also it'd be a lot finer than the live sand I've seen for sale to date, wouldn't this make it more likely to get blown around by the powerheads and leave the tank looking very messy?

I think it'd be fine myself, once you fire up the powerheads a lot of stuff will move about but once it settles down its' grand. You won't be pointing the powerheads at the floor of the tank anyway.

You could always get a few kg of live sand and mix it with your own.

Sleepy

Thanks for all the input, it's really appreciated!

Are the marine lights just an aesthetics thing or do they provide certain wavelengths that corals need to grow?

corkcity

hi there

i am converting juwel 190ltr into marine aquarium.i will be buying a 400ltr fluval external filter.my problem is i have read that the filter media in the filter causes high nitrate and phos levels.everyone say to take out all the filter media in the filter and to just put carbon in there and clean it out once a week .is this right

so far i have 20kg of live rock
live sand
2 power heads
marine blue and daylight tubes
test kits
internal skimmer

please help!!!

él statutorio

Sleepy wrote: »

Thanks for all the input, it's really appreciated!

Are the marine lights just an aesthetics thing or do they provide certain wavelengths that corals need to grow?

they do provide different wave lengths alright, i think it's to do with blue light, not 100% sure tbh. Either way I'd put them on the long finger for now. You won't need to worry about lighting / corals for a few months at least.

él statutorio

corkcity wrote: »

hi there

i am converting juwel 190ltr into marine aquarium.i will be buying a 400ltr fluval external filter.my problem is i have read that the filter media in the filter causes high nitrate and phos levels.everyone say to take out all the filter media in the filter and to just put carbon in there and clean it out once a week .is this right

so far i have 20kg of live rock
live sand
2 power heads
marine blue and daylight tubes
test kits
internal skimmer

please help!!!

Crush up some live rock and put that in as your filter medium.

I'd also try and put another 20kg of live rock into the tank as well.

corkcity

so take out all filtermedis and put live rock and carbon in the filter

él statutorio

corkcity wrote: »

so take out all filtermedis and put live rock and carbon in the filter

Just live rock, nothing else.

Sleepy

Dropped into Artane Aquatics today to get a price for live rock. Unless second-hand prices are a fifth to a quarter of the €10 a kilo they're charging I think I'm going to have to come up with another plan for this tank I think. I just can't afford the four or five hundred quid it'd cost to get enough live rock for my tank on top of the other bits and pieces I'd need.

m4r10

You'd only need around 20 kg of live rock (10% of water volume). Second-hand can be had for €5-7/kg depending on the quality, so not that much.

él statutorio

m4r10 wrote: »

You'd only need around 20 kg of live rock (10% of water volume). Second-hand can be had for €5-7/kg depending on the quality, so not that much.

If you're running a skimmer yes, if you're going with the Berlin Method you need more rock.

Keep an eye on the two fish forums. I got 80kg of live rock for €200 a few years ago.

Sleepy

Hmm, wonder would I be best to look at a hang-on the back (or side?) skimmer with a little less live rock?

Say I managed to pick up 20/30k of live rock for a hundred or so, I see the Juwel 3.0 protein skimmer for sale for about €100 on ebay... then all I'd really need would be water and powerheads?

EDIT: read some poor reviews of the Juwel protein skimmer and it's an internal rather than hang on the back design which would take up tank space unnecessarily...

Seahorse have this http://www.seahorseaquariums.com/store/product/5070/Hydor-Slim-Skim/ for €150 which is also an internal, or the Deltec MCE 300 (which I see lots of good reviews for) at €215 (which seems quite expensive for what it is tbh!)

Riamfada

It the noise of the skimmer thats a killer. I have a V2 400 in a sump and the noise is insane.

Sleepy

Is that why some of them are so expensive? I see the Deltec MCE600 recommended in lots of places for it's performance and silence but Seahorse are charging €335 for them! :eek:

él statutorio

spend the money on live rock for now. You can always remove some rock and add a skimmer in the future.

That's what I'd do. IMHO it's the cheaper short term option.

Sleepy

él statutorio, it'd be the cheapest if I can find the same sort of deal on live rock as you got but the best price I've seen on the forums so far was €5 a kilo.

It'll all come down to what I can afford on tbh. If I find someone selling 50k+ of live rock for under €250 I'll go down that route, if I see someone selling a decent skimmer and 20k+ of live rock at the same price point, I'll probably go down that route.