Children penalised for the actions of parents

nachocheese

kflynn wrote: »

But I'm sure you knew you needed to save a long time before you started and therefore had time to work and save.

I worked all throughout college too!

Unfortunately not, my financial independence was cast on me very abruptly and without warning or expectation! Anyway, I've just had to do it year by year, work full-time during the summer/christmas and part-time the rest of the year. Hasn't been easy but sure thankfully the capitation fee is still €2000ish and not the £9,000 or whatever the British students are facing.

Peanut2011

lucylu wrote: »

This is the whole problem with this country - everyone believes they are entitled to something for nothing

So it's a problem when ordinary citizen gets to claim what they can but not when politicians do it?

Again double standards!

kflynn

homeless student wrote: »

morals wont pay the cost of going to college

Yes, there is a bigger issue here though, its like case law this could set a precedent.

Anyways! Not the point. €100 is loads of money Homeless Student, really it is for some people!

You can not assume people have relationships even in the same house. As I mentioned with the bankruptcy case, A husband may pay a mortgage with his wife but you can not assume he told her he went bankrupt.

You're in a really good situation relative to other people (Based on what you say). Imagine if your parents were alcohols/just didn't talk to you....whatever.....and didn't care less whether you got the grant. In considering college has started and you only just found this out, would you consider it fair?

This is an extreme example, I'm exaggerating a point to make a point. They could have used other state benefits that directly affect the parent if they wanted. There are loads of other things they couldn't have done....so the moral part comes in here. They knew they could do what they liked because we very rarely have any say in anything.

kflynn

nachocheese wrote: »

Unfortunately not, my financial independence was cast on me very abruptly and without warning or expectation! Anyway, I've just had to do it year by year, work full-time during the summer/christmas and part-time the rest of the year. Hasn't been easy but sure thankfully the capitation fee is still €2000ish and not the £9,000 or whatever the British students are facing.

(Me too)

That's ok and I think it gives you an incredible start in life to develop a work ethic this way.

However, what if you couldn't work for whatever reason? You have to remember this is a blanket rule! They may not have had the chance to work and save this summer...what do they do for rent/fee's/books etc in the immediate future? Plus, lets not forget they are entitled to this grant.

Also- Do you really think this is the best way to do this? Do you really think this was well thought out?

limklad

Biggins wrote: »

Irish children penalised for the actions of parents...

Is this what our state has come to?


http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/latest-news/fury-as-council-blocks-student-grants-over-household-charge-3233555.html

I'm NOT here to argue for/against the household charge - there's a thread for that HERE.
...Have our present government become so low and fcuking bitter that they are hitting out at offspring for what is clearly the separate decisions of others?

Feel free to disagree with me but I think its fcuking disgusting!

After you turn 18 you are still degraded by government not respected as an independent person. Your college grant if any is done by assessing your parents income. To me that is degrading especially more if you have bad parents who like control over you every movement and actions or like to degrade and punish their child. It is very degrading to ask bad parents for proof of income. The hurt and pain of it all. It is cruel and unusual punishment by the Government as the government tied you hands back to your parents when you want to break free from the bad family. A Double blow for the child looking for third level education still in fear and in prison like mindset. Prison would be far better, There is more respect there. The government is living in fairy wonderland.

They also have election days on week days where students cannot travel home because of classes during that day and the following day. they do not allow postal voting for students who live away from the home. Therefore they can do what they like to adult Students.

I am in my mid thirties and still bitter about those two points even though I have a Job and went to collage and finally broke free from my so called family.

homeless student

kflynn wrote: »

Yes, there is a bigger issue here though, its like case law this could set a precedent.

Anyways! Not the point. €100 is loads of money Homeless Student, really it is for some people!

You can not assume people have relationships even in the same house. As I mentioned with the bankruptcy case, A husband may pay a mortgage with his wife but you can not assume he told her he went bankrupt.

You're in a really good situation relative to other people (Based on what you say). Imagine if your parents were alcohols/just didn't talk to you....whatever.....and didn't care less whether you got the grant. In considering college has started and you only just found this out, would you consider it fair?

This is an extreme example, I'm exaggerating a point to make a point. They could have used other state benefits that directly affect the parent if they wanted. There are loads of other things they couldn't have done....so the moral part comes in here. They knew they could do what they liked because we very rarely have any say in anything.

im sure if a student didnt get on with their parents or was from a disadvantaged home it would be taken into consideration by the cc. I think we actually have it pretty good in this country,look at america, how much they pay for college fees and they have a serious unemployment problem like ourselves. I know where id rather live.

homeless student

what about this situation? I own a shop, john is my customer, he owes me 100 euro the last 6 months, he came in last week and filled a few trolleys with food and other items, the cost of these items was 4000 euro, he told me he couldnt pay me for any of it. when I told him he must pay me the 100 euro he owed me from 6 months ago or I couldnt let him take the 4000 euro worth of items he told me that his children would suffer. what should I do?????

666irishguy

homeless student wrote: »

what about this situation? I own a shop, john is my customer, he owes me 100 euro the last 6 months, he came in last week and filled a few trolleys with food and other items, the cost of these items was 4000 euro, he told me he couldnt pay me for any of it. when I told him he must pay me the 100 euro he owed me from 6 months ago or I couldnt let him take the 4000 euro worth of items he told me that his children would suffer. what should I do?????

Well I'd check John's other purchases. See if he has kept the majority of his accounts in order and hasn't reneged on any previous payments. You would also be wise to remember that his grateful children will more than likely spend more than the 4000 they now need over the course of their adult life in your shop.

Biggins

homeless student wrote: »

what about this situation? I own a shop, john is my customer, he owes me 100 euro the last 6 months, he came in last week and filled a few trolleys with food and other items, the cost of these items was 4000 euro, he told me he couldnt pay me for any of it. when I told him he must pay me the 100 euro he owed me from 6 months ago or I couldnt let him take the 4000 euro worth of items he told me that his children would suffer. what should I do?????

Call the Gardi if there is any current attempted theft and slap your own wrist for allowing the situation to get that bad in the first place?

There was absolutely NO mention of education grants being connected to the household charge when it was dreamed up/invented by the current shower.

Its only being used now as a stick for offspring to be forced (1) to spy on their parents (2) punish the offspring for the actions of others (3) a way to screw more money out of those that quite possibly just don't have it - "pay up or your kid gets it!"

Charming!

nachocheese

kflynn wrote: »

However, what if you couldn't work for whatever reason? You have to remember this is a blanket rule!

I think you're talking about very exceptional circumstances there to be honest. I don't know many students who'd be able to attend school full time to leaving cert level and then NOT be able to work during the summer, even part-time, before college. People who wouldn't might be people who've disabled or sick parents or similar, but a good chunk of those would be exempt from paying the charge in the first place (I think).

what do they do for rent/fee's/books etc in the immediate future?

Well the big question is the fees and most particularly first year, as they would have the opportunity to work thereafter. A lot of colleges have financial assistance funds for people in exceptional circumstances that, for example, can't get the grant. Apart from that, aren't some banks starting to do student loans again? Most colleges will also allow students to pay the fees over the school year also, which would help.

Plus, lets not forget they are entitled to this grant.

They are, as their household takes in less than €32k a year or so (if I remember correctly). But it's dependent on their parents circumstances and exemptions to the household charge have been made for those in the worst of situations, so we're talking about people who most likely have an income yet aren't putting up the charge themselves.

The best thing, obviously, would be to go and work a few weekends and hand the parents the €100 to pay the charge with, or pay it themselves.

Also- Do you really think this is the best way to do this? Do you really think this was well thought out?

Nah of course I don't. I really dislike anything that restricts access to education in any way as it's the only truly equalizing thing in society. Realistically, if they can identify the people who haven't paid the charge so well that they can tell who their kids are then they should give the kids the grant that they're qualified for and pursue the parents, whose identity they absolutely know, in court.

kflynn

homeless student wrote: »

what about this situation? I own a shop, john is my customer, he owes me 100 euro the last 6 months, he came in last week and filled a few trolleys with food and other items, the cost of these items was 4000 euro, he told me he couldnt pay me for any of it. when I told him he must pay me the 100 euro he owed me from 6 months ago or I couldnt let him take the 4000 euro worth of items he told me that his children would suffer. what should I do?????

You are dealing directly with John and anything he tells you is hearsay....he has no entitlement to walk into a privately owned shop and demand goods.You have no duty to his children.

The cc is dealing with the student on a grant they are entitled to. Also, If John's kids came in and looking for the 4k worth of goods, his kids might not have spoken to him in 10 years and you can't assume they have.

JRant

homeless student wrote: »

what about this situation? I own a shop, john is my customer, he owes me 100 euro the last 6 months, he came in last week and filled a few trolleys with food and other items, the cost of these items was 4000 euro, he told me he couldnt pay me for any of it. when I told him he must pay me the 100 euro he owed me from 6 months ago or I couldnt let him take the 4000 euro worth of items he told me that his children would suffer. what should I do?????

Way to miss the point.
How about this?
You pay thousands of euro every year in all forms of taxes, fees etc and are then told you no longer have access to services for missing one payment of €100.

homeless student

666irishguy wrote: »

Well I'd check John's other purchases. See if he has kept the majority of his accounts in order and hasn't reneged on any previous payments. You would also be wise to remember that his grateful children will more than likely spend more than the 4000 they now need over the course of their adult life in your shop.

really? in my experience his "grateful" childen would do 4 years plus in college and get the 1st plane out to australia or canada etc only ever seen again at xmas maybe every 2nd year.big help to the economy they will be.and I include myself in that.(just finished 4 years in college 1 year to do.the government paid me to go to college the last 4 years which I am very grateful for.

SusieBlue

I think its both unbelievable and very unfair that once again the people that are taking the hit for the mistakes of our government, and those who were in power before Kenny, are people who weren't even old enough to vote when all these bad decisions were made.

My generation are the ones suffering for poorly thought out plans and greedy TD's. Its sickening. I wonder how much worse it'll get before there's a general election?

kflynn

nachocheese wrote: »

I think you're talking about very exceptional circumstances there to be honest. I don't know many students who'd be able to attend school full time to leaving cert level and then NOT be able to work during the summer, even part-time, before college. People who wouldn't might be people who've disabled or sick parents or similar, but a good chunk of those would be exempt from paying the charge in the first place (I think).


Well the big question is the fees and most particularly first year, as they would have the opportunity to work thereafter. A lot of colleges have financial assistance funds for people in exceptional circumstances that, for example, can't get the grant. Apart from that, aren't some banks starting to do student loans again? Most colleges will also allow students to pay the fees over the school year also, which would help.


They are, as their household takes in less than €32k a year or so (if I remember correctly). But it's dependent on their parents circumstances and exemptions to the household charge have been made for those in the worst of situations, so we're talking about people who most likely have an income yet aren't putting up the charge themselves.

The best thing, obviously, would be to go and work a few weekends and hand the parents the €100 to pay the charge with, or pay it themselves.

Nah of course I don't. I really dislike anything that restricts access to education in any way as it's the only truly equalizing thing in society. Realistically, if they can identify the people who haven't paid the charge so well that they can tell who their kids are then they should give the kids the grant that they're qualified for and pursue the parents, whose identity they absolutely know, in court.

Yes I said these were exceptional. They may have been able to work but went on J1 etc as they were told they could get the grant.They could have worked and paid car insurance/tax etc as they were expecting the grant. A good chunk isn't good enough when it is a blanket rule.

Those funds don't usually kick in until October/November. Again, not the point. I've no clue what my parents do/don't pay and don't intend to walk around with their debt on my shoulders. It takes ages to work up €100 and pay rent/books in between.

Exactly, and I don't mean this in an argumentative way. But for such a huge decision why is a half thought out solution ok?

I'm not saying let the parents off, I'm saying there are different ways to do things and we should try our best to look after people who are only starting out in life with (As they were assessed) probably a low household income.

Also everyone seems to be ignoring the whole 3rd party thing!

UDP

limklad wrote: »

Biggins wrote: »

Irish children penalised for the actions of parents...

Is this what our state has come to?


http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/latest-news/fury-as-council-blocks-student-grants-over-household-charge-3233555.html

I'm NOT here to argue for/against the household charge - there's a thread for that HERE.
...Have our present government become so low and fcuking bitter that they are hitting out at offspring for what is clearly the separate decisions of others?

Feel free to disagree with me but I think its fcuking disgusting!

After you turn 18 you are still degraded by government not respected as an independent person. Your college grant if any is done by assessing your parents income. To me that is degrading especially more if you have bad parents who like control over you every movement and actions or like to degrade and punish their child. It is very degrading to ask bad parents for proof of income. The hurt and pain of it all. It is cruel and unusual punishment by the Government as the government tied you hands back to your parents when you want to break free from the bad family. A Double blow for the child looking for third level education still in fear and in prison like mindset. Prison would be far better, There is more respect there. The government is living in fairy wonderland.

Absolute rubbish. Students not dependent on their parents are accessed by themselves.

kflynn

homeless student wrote: »

really? in my experience his "grateful" childen would do 4 years plus in college and get the 1st plane out to australia or canada etc only ever seen again at xmas maybe every 2nd year.big help to the economy they will be.and I include myself in that.(just finished 4 years in college 1 year to do.the government paid me to go to college the last 4 years which I am very grateful for.

Read my reply this logic is not relevant. Why are they emigrating to Australia? (Rhetorical) This could just go around in circles.

666irishguy

homeless student wrote: »

really? in my experience his "grateful" childen would do 4 years plus in college and get the 1st plane out to australia or canada etc only ever seen again at xmas maybe every 2nd year.big help to the economy they will be.and I include myself in that.(just finished 4 years in college 1 year to do.the government paid me to go to college the last 4 years which I am very grateful for.

Even if half the people who graduated went straight to airport, in the long term the investment would pay for itself. And if they don't get that chance to do 4 years in college, what then? A life on the dole for years at a time. Either way it makes sense to have an educated population.

Biggins

UDP wrote: »

Absolute rubbish. Students not dependent on their parents are accessed by themselves.

Means test
If you were ordinarily resident with your parents from October 1 of the year before the year of entry to the course, you are considered dependent on your parents and your income (if any) is assessed together with your parents' income(s). An allowance is made for your earnings outside of term-time – up to €3,809 currently.

Independent mature candidates are candidates aged over 23 who live separately from their parents from 1 October of the year before the year of entry to the course. If you are an independent student, you are assessed on your own income (and that of your spouse, civil partner or cohabitant, if applicable).

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/third_level_education/fees_and_supports_for_third_level_education/maintenance_grant_schemes_for_students_on_third_level_courses.html#ld1a9a

Either side, make of that as ye will.

Peanut2011

kflynn wrote: »

But I'm sure you knew you needed to save a long time before you started and therefore had time to work and save.

I worked all throughout college too!

And i,'m guessing this was at the time you could find the job. I'm affraid not that simple any more.

homeless student wrote: »

its only 100 euro,who doesnt have 100 euro? not like its 10,000 euro

I am a student but in fairness how can a family refuse to pay a miserly 100 euro then expect the cc to give them thousands in grants??

If it was just that it would not be issue. Let's have a look at all other taxes that have been introduced..

meoklmrk91

Just want to say that it is really nice to see such a good show of support for students on here.

I am one of those students who may be affected by this, the biggest problem is that I have no control over it! I do not own the house therefore I cannot pay the household charge, it has simply nothing to do with me. If I was asked to pay an administration fee for the processing of some sort I most certainly would not be adverse to that because I can actually pay that!

This dirty, sneaky, underhanded tactic has completely alienated me from the current government, I can't remember the last time I was this angry at any politician, I know that I will never as long as I live vote for either of these parties again. I should not be held accountable for any crimes my parents commit, does this mean I am now liable for my fathers car tax or my mothers TV license. Fine Gael and Labour should remember that students will be the workforce of the future and they will remember this. That leaves me with Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein, and considering the former got us into this mess and the latter seem to be the only ones who are considering the rights of the students involved, even though I always thought I would never vote for them I am left with literally no option.

This targets two very specific demographics, those whose parents chose not to pay the HHC and those whose parents simply cannot afford to pay the household charge. For the former, as has been mentioned civil disobedience is a form of protest and whether or not parents choose to pay the charge has nothing to do with the child of said person and should not impact them in anyway as they have no choice or say in the matter. For the latter and there are people out there like that, I know, it is blatant inequality, education should be available to everyone regardless of their socioeconomic backround.

The only thing that is left in this country for young adults (and many others!) is education and upskilling, lets not take that away too!

kflynn

Peanut2011 wrote: »

And i,'m guessing this was at the time you could find the job. I'm affraid not that simple any more.




If it was just that it would not be issue. Let's have a look at all other taxes that have been introduced..

I know that's my point....and that's why there can't be a blanket rule!

homeless student

kflynn wrote: »

Read my reply this logic is not relevant. Why are they emigrating to Australia? (Rhetorical) This could just go around in circles.

they are emigrating because of the lack of jobs. whats happening is the government is paying grants to college students like myself then we go abroad to work, I know its 1 less on the dole here but a bit of a waste to in my opinion.

kflynn

homeless student wrote: »

they are emigrating because of the lack of jobs. whats happening is the government is paying grants to college students like myself then we go abroad to work, I know its 1 less on the dole here but a bit of a waste to in my opinion.

Why is there a lack of jobs? Its just an example of how this could go around in circles to blame everyone. People that are educated abroad also come here to work.

Think this is going off topic as whether they should be given the grant in the first place is not in question here.

JRant

homeless student wrote: »

666irishguy wrote: »

Well I'd check John's other purchases. See if he has kept the majority of his accounts in order and hasn't reneged on any previous payments. You would also be wise to remember that his grateful children will more than likely spend more than the 4000 they now need over the course of their adult life in your shop.

really? in my experience his "grateful" childen would do 4 years plus in college and get the 1st plane out to australia or canada etc only ever seen again at xmas maybe every 2nd year.big help to the economy they will be.and I include myself in that.(just finished 4 years in college 1 year to do.the government paid me to go to college the last 4 years which I am very grateful for.

Yeah and they'd be a bigger help to the economy sitting at home on the dole alright. Why shouldn't they look to improve their lot elsewhere if this Government couldn't give a toss about them.

Einhard

I don't think it's correct that the grant should be determined exclusively on parental income in the first place. What about those people who are estranged from their parents or simply don't get on with them? However, the fact is that parental income determines the success of a grant, and in that light, I don't think it's all that unreasonable that parents should be fully tax compliant when the application is made.

In my experience, the vast majority of those getting the grant are dependent on parents whilst in college, for everything from extra money to accomodation out of term etc. Considering that the grant can be worth almost €10 000, I really don't think that a pre-condition of having paid a mandatory €100 charge is at all outrageous. Indeed, it would seem to make perfect sense to me.

I'd note that the people most outraged about this (think of the childer!!) are those who are most opposed to the charge in the frst place. Surely a coincidence...

ilovesleep

I wonder if a youngster had a car and went in to sort out his/her car tax, would they ask at the counter before looking at the form:
Did your parents pay the HHT? We need proof of this before we can look at this form.

Would they fcuk ask it. The person would have money to hand in and the CoCo will grab it quick with no questions asked.

homeless student

kflynn wrote: »

Why is there a lack of jobs? Its just an example of how this could go around in circles to blame everyone. People that are educated abroad also come here to work.

Think this is going off topic as whether they should be given the grant in the first place is not in question here.

yes you are right about it going off topic. dont know why people dont just call a spade a spade though we have become a nation of moaners and are using the recession as an excuse not to pay for anything.

Aidric

Biggins wrote: »

Can you read?

Children penalised for the actions of parents is disgusting.
Are you that blind you can't make that out?

So its ok to hit out at children because of the actions of their parents!
Get a fcuking grip and kop yourself on!

Relax grandad. His point was a fair one.

666irishguy

Einhard wrote: »

I don't think it's correct that the grant should be determined exclusively on parental income in the first place. What about those people who are estranged from their parents or simply don't get on with them? However, the fact is that parental income determines the success of a grant, and in that light, I don't think it's all that unreasonable that parents should be fully tax compliant when the application is made.

In my experience, the vast majority of those getting the grant are dependent on parents whilst in college, for everything from extra money to accomodation out of term etc. Considering that the grant can be worth almost €10 000, I really don't think that a pre-condition of having paid a mandatory €100 charge is at all outrageous. Indeed, it would seem to make perfect sense to me.

I'd note that the people most outraged about this (think of the childer!!) are those who are most opposed to the charge in the frst place. Surely a coincidence...

It's the Household charge this week (which I have paid, even though I think it has been run in the most farcical way from the start, they can't even call it household tax) and next week it's going to be not paying a traffic fine. After all what's the difference, it's all owed to the government?

kflynn

Einhard wrote: »

I don't think it's correct that the grant should be determined exclusively on parental income in the first place. What about those people who are estranged from their parents or simply don't get on with them? However, the fact is that parental income determines the success of a grant, and in that light, I don't think it's all that unreasonable that parents should be fully tax compliant when the application is made.

In my experience, the vast majority of those getting the grant are dependent on parents whilst in college, for everything from extra money to accomodation out of term etc. Considering that the grant can be worth almost €10 000, I really don't think that a pre-condition of having paid a mandatory €100 charge is at all outrageous. Indeed, it would seem to make perfect sense to me.

I'd note that the people most outraged about this (think of the childer!!) are those who are most opposed to the charge in the frst place. Surely a coincidence...

Ok I'm definitely giving up after this.

The student is a separate person to the parent. They were told based on a means test that they are eligible for the grant.

Of course €100 for €1,000 makes sense in isolation, but they are not connected. They are two different contracts.

They are not asking the student to pay it though, they are asking a third party.

I'm not against the household charge. I just think everyone should have a clean slate when starting out if they have done nothing to incriminate themselves. Everyone should have their own responsibilities and consequences. Yes the grant is based on parents income but what they do with that income can have nothing to do with the student. We (Ireland) promotes and advocates 'free education'.

Chase the parents all you like.....in a different manner.

I wish we could elect Boards as a party for goverment! Even with the different opinions!

Einhard

666irishguy wrote: »

It's the Household charge (which I have paid, even though I think it has been run in the most farcical way from the start, they can't even call it household tax) and next week it's going to be not paying a traffic fine. After all what's the difference, it's all owed to the government?

The difference is that the councils are charged with collecting the charge and councils are charged with disbursing grants.

Why on earth should services be cut for those who pay the charge, when those who refuse to still get their children's education susidised to the tune of €10 000. That's inherently unfair.

Also, to the students who are bemoaning this...the charge is €100. The grant (including payment of fees) is worth up to €10k. You don't have to be an economist to figure out that, even were your parents to refuse to pay the charge, you'd be making a massive profit if you paid it yourself and thus gained the funds available.

I really think people just want to be outraged by this. Must be a nice feeling being outraged...why else would so many people be so attracted to it?

oldyouth

I made a comment earlier and I've also commented on the mega thread regarding the household charge. My position is very clear, I resent the household charge but I paid it. I also commented at the time that I will not pay it next year if there are not consequences if those that won't (as opposed to can't) pay it next year.

Now there appears to be consequences and I hope that I am better placed than those internet warriors that decided not to pay the charge.

I am unemployed, receiving jobseekers allowance, and putting my youngest through college. I hate the fact that I have to rely on social welfare to take care of my family, but if I had to do without certain things to perform my legal obligations, then I'll take comfort in the fact that there are benefits to it.

I will never forgive the Government, Elitists, Conmen and Speculators who brought us to this but you reap what you sow and I take responsibility for my situation

kflynn

Einhard wrote: »

Also, to the students who are bemoaning this...the charge is €100. The grant (including payment of fees) is worth up to €10k. You don't have to be an economist to figure out that, even were your parents to refuse to pay the charge, you'd be making a massive profit if you paid it yourself and thus gained the funds available.

Ok one last time. One person is paying the €100 another is receiving the '€10,000'. You would be making a profit if you paid it yourself but it is not your debt!!!

Einhard

kflynn wrote: »

Ok I'm definitely giving up after this.

The student is a separate person to the parent. They were told based on a means test that they are eligible for the grant.

Of course €100 for €1,000 makes sense in isolation, but they are not connected. They are two different contracts.

They are not asking the student to pay it though, they are asking a third party.

I'm not against the household charge. I just think everyone should have a clean slate when starting out if they have done nothing to incriminate themselves. Everyone should have their own responsibilities and consequences. Yes the grant is based on parents income but what they do with that income can have nothing to do with the student. We (Ireland) promotes and advocates 'free education'.

Chase the parents all you like.....in a different manner.

I wish we could elect Boards as a party for goverment! Even with the different opinions!

I agree with most of what you say. That's why I started by stating that parental income and the need for a grant should be decoupled. However, in the absence of that, the authorities have to work with the system that's in place. Is it unfair on a tiny minority of students who might not get on with their parents or whatever? Sure. However, I'd argue that the greatest inequity would be asking me and you and veryone else who is tax compliant, to subsidise to the tune of thousands those who deliberately choose not to cough up. And the reality is that, in most cases, the grant is a subsidy to parents.

Einhard

kflynn wrote: »

Ok one last time. One person is paying the €100 another is receiving the '€10,000'. You would be making a profit if you paid it yourself but it is not your debt!!!

I realise that. I'm pointing out though, to all those who cry that students can't afford this etc, that for those whose parents won't cough up, paying €100 to receive €10 000 isn't too bad a deal. It's unfair, sure, but then so is life. And I'm pretty sure that many people would take unfairness at that return.

mikom

Clare county council........ putting the sin back in original sin.

666irishguy

Einhard wrote: »

The difference is that the councils are charged with collecting the charge and councils are charged with disbursing grants.

Why on earth should services be cut for those who pay the charge, when those who refuse to still get their children's education susidised to the tune of €10 000. That's inherently unfair.

Also, to the students who are bemoaning this...the charge is €100. The grant (including payment of fees) is worth up to €10k. You don't have to be an economist to figure out that, even were your parents to refuse to pay the charge, you'd be making a massive profit if you paid it yourself and thus gained the funds available.

I really think people just want to be outraged by this. Must be a nice feeling being outraged...why else would so many people be so attracted to it?

Why should a child who has no control over their parents actions be penalized and have their prospects of continuing to further education put in doubt or at least made more difficult because of a hundred euros they are not responsible for paying? If their parents pay every other tax willingly, does it really come down to the sum of a hundred euros or is it just teaching those who haven't paid for whatever reason a lesson? Have they exhausted all legal avenues to get the money? How would that money be profit? How could you pay the fee and collect your 'profit' if you aren't the registered owner of the house? People are outraged on the simple grounds that one person is being punished for the actions of another person whom they have no control over. It's a cowardly way of forcing peoples hand on an issue by using their children to get to them. It's as simple as that.

meoklmrk91

Einhard wrote: »

I realise that. I'm pointing out though, to all those who cry that students can't afford this etc, that for those whose parents won't cough up, paying €100 to receive €10 000 isn't too bad a deal. It's unfair, sure, but then so is life. And I'm pretty sure that many people would take unfairness at that return.

I'm sorry but where is this €10,000 coming out of? The highest am mount you can receive is €5915, that is the special non-adjacent rate which is for those who live more than 45km from their college, as the crow flies, and that is the special rate for those who are living in a very low income home.

oldyouth

Bottom line

Student applying for a grant is RELYING TOTALLY on the financial status of the parents. Student is now trying to distance themselves from the actions of the parents as an INDEPENDENT adult

Can't have it both ways

Einhard

666irishguy wrote: »

Why should a child who has no control over their parents actions be penalized and have their prospects of continuing to further education put in doubt or at least made more difficult because of a hundred euros they are not responsible for paying? If their parents pay every other tax willingly, does it really come down to the sum of a hundred euros or is it just teaching those who haven't paid for whatever reason a lesson? Have they exhausted all legal avenues to get the money? How would that money be profit? How could you pay the fee and collect your 'profit' if you aren't the registered owner of the house? People are outraged on the simple grounds that one person is being punished for the actions of another person whom they have no control over. It's a cowardly way of forcing peoples hand on an issue by using their children to get to them. It's as simple as that.

Why should people who pay their taxes have to susidise to the tune of €10 000 those who refuse to do so? Beause the majority of grants, in my experience, subsidise the parents.

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

I'm sorry but where is this €10,000 coming out of? The highest am mount you can receive is €5915, that is the special non-adjacent rate which is for those who live more than 45km from their college, as the crow flies, and that is the special rate for those who are living in a very low income home.

The registration fee is also paid. AFAIK, that's €1500 at the moment, but will rise higher in the next few years, perhaps €8000 would be a more accurate figure.

Biggins

oldyouth wrote: »

Bottom line

Student applying for a grant is RELYING TOTALLY on the financial status of the parents. Student is now trying to distance themselves from the actions of the parents as an INDEPENDENT adult

Can't have it both ways

...And what if they can't afford to distance themselves?
...And/or are under 23?

zcorpian88

Disgraceful thing to do to the next generation of taxpayers for this country. Would just give me more incentive to hop on a plane, get a job abroad and give Fine Gael the two fingers, and every other young qualified skilled person should follow suit.

Feathers

homeless student wrote: »

im sure if a student didnt get on with their parents or was from a disadvantaged home it would be taken into consideration by the cc.

haha, good one! :pac:

Einhard wrote: »

The difference is that the councils are charged with collecting the charge and councils are charged with disbursing grants.

Why on earth should services be cut for those who pay the charge, when those who refuse to still get their children's education susidised to the tune of €10 000. That's inherently unfair.

So does the household charge go towards processing grant applications, or local amenities? Why should a home owner with no connection to college students pay a tax towards processing college applications? And on the flipside, why should non-home owners get their son's/daughter's application processed with no fee?

The household charge was brought in under the pretence that it paid for local amenities — i.e. libraries, street lighting, electricity lines, greenery, etc. Home-owners were to pay it for use of the services & landlords could presumably pass on the charge in the rent.

If the charge is really for paying civil servants wages, how are landlords meant to recoup it when it's no longer a flat fee? I can understand people saying, 'the rent is a little higher than other areas, but the local library/park is great'; not so much 'the rent is a little higher than other areas, but the local council has 5 times the number of staff as elsewhere'.

homeless student wrote: »

yes you are right about it going off topic. dont know why people dont just call a spade a spade though we have become a nation of moaners and are using the recession as an excuse not to pay for anything.

People are callng a spade a spade: they don't want to pay the household charge on principle. This topic isn't really about household charges or grant applications. It's about, as has been mentioned by others, seperation of powers and treating individuals as individuals.

If I don't pay a tax, I should be fined, brought to court, jailed, etc. If I don't pay a tax as a protest, I know this in advance but accept the consequences of my actions, standing on principle. But I also assume that any punishment for my actions will fall on me. The council is essentially doing what the bad guys do in the films — the hero says 'Kill me if you want, I'll never do XYZ', so they say 'Aha, but we'll capture the damsal in distress instead — now what do you say!?'

And why should the lowest level of government body have the ability to say that it affects an abritary, unconnected service? If I had my elderly mother living with me & didn't pay the household charge, would it be OK to take away her medical card or bus pass?

666irishguy

Einhard wrote: »

Why should people who pay their taxes have to susidise to the tune of €10 000 those who refuse to do so? Beause the majority of grants, in my experience, subsidise the parents.



The registration fee is also paid. AFAIK, that's €1500 at the moment, but will rise higher in the next few years, perhaps €8000 would be a more accurate figure.

The people refusing to pay their household charge aren't refusing to pay the rest of their taxes and subsidise the country along with those who have payed the charge. It's not like they have said sod the household charge, and while I'm at it, feck the rest of taxes. I doubt by anybody's reasoning, not paying a hundred Euro's is a valid enough point to cut their children off from maintenance grants.

Canard

I'm assuming my dad paid the tax because mine and my sister's grants have been processed, but if he hadn't I probably wouldn't be going to college. Whatever way you look at it, for any fraction of people that this persuades to finally cough up the €100, there's going to be some amount who don't - and a resulting lack of education. What a great solution!

oldyouth

Biggins wrote: »

...And what if they can't afford to distance themselves?

If Mom and Pop couldn't afford to pay €1.92 a week towards their legal obligations, then yes, it is not fair and modern Ireland is a cruel place at present. If they chose not to pay it, then this conversation should be directed towards them

Biggins

oldyouth wrote: »

If Mom and Pop couldn't afford to pay €1.92 a week towards their legal obligations, then yes, it is not fair and modern Ireland is a cruel place at present. If they chose not to pay it, then this conversation should be directed towards them

Thats a kop out.

You haven't provided an answer to the conditions described!

..And if its not fair - why enforce it then?
Thats only the action of thugs - and of those that seek to justify their actions!

Feathers

oldyouth wrote: »

Bottom line

Student applying for a grant is RELYING TOTALLY on the financial status of the parents. Student is now trying to distance themselves from the actions of the parents as an INDEPENDENT adult

Can't have it both ways

So what if I said to my son — I'm happy to clothe you, feed you, house you, but on a point of principle I'm not going to pay the household charge. What options is he left with? Move out to be classed as an INDEPENDENT adult? He won't be able to claim the dole while in full-time education, he'll get a lower maintenance paymeny for living within 45km of the college, even though this is rented accommodation & he's unlikely to get enough work these days to make up the balance of the bills. Not really an option for most people.

Einhard

666irishguy wrote: »

The people refusing to pay their household charge aren't refusing to pay the rest of their taxes and subsidise the country along with those who have payed the charge. It's not like they have said sod the household charge, and while I'm at it, feck the rest of taxes. I doubt by anybody's reasoning, not paying a hundred Euro's is a valid enough point to cut their children off from maintenance grants.

They're refusing to pay the charge, and yet demand that they get every red cent of what they deem themselves to be entitled. I'm not paying that €100, but godammit you'll give my son €8k.

Talk about entitlement and arrogance!