Royal Canin vet care??

Louboutfan

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone has experience with the Royal Canin range that you buy from the vet? I currently have my dog on the Vet Care Pediatric Junior for large dogs. It's the first food that she's really eating. We've tried a few - Real Nature, Select Gold etc but she either didn't like it or it didn't like her!!:eek:

I spoke to my vet and he recommended the Vet care range by royal canin - he said the only difference between the vet care and the version you buy in pet shops is that the Vet Care is 90% digestible. We went to a dog trainer recently and she said to avoid foods that list a non-meat ingredient first. The first ingredient in the RC vet care is maize.

I'm just wondering - is RC the super premium food that I was told it was?

Rommie

Louboutfan wrote: »

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone has experience with the Royal Canin range that you buy from the vet? I currently have my dog on the Vet Care Pediatric Junior for large dogs. It's the first food that she's really eating. We've tried a few - Real Nature, Select Gold etc but she either didn't like it or it didn't like her!!:eek:

I spoke to my vet and he recommended the Vet care range by royal canin - he said the only difference between the vet care and the version you buy in pet shops is that the Vet Care is 90% digestible. We went to a dog trainer recently and she said to avoid foods that list a non-meat ingredient first. The first ingredient in the RC vet care is maize.

I'm just wondering - is RC the super premium food that I was told it was?

Of course the vet will tell you its great, he gets comission for every bag he sells! Personally, I dont like Royal Canin at all. It used to be a great food, but they've changed the recipe to include more cereals and less meat. They also list ingredients like 'animal protein', which animal exactly do these come from!? I also think it's completely overpriced for what's in it, there are far better, far cheaper foods out there.

Louboutfan

Thanks for your response.

She doesn't do too well on foods with a higher protein content - like Orijen for example. I might wait until she is a little older and switch her to a grain free food but for the moment I think it's too rich for her.

I don't know what to do!!! What brands would you suggest Rommie?

Rommie

What breed is she? My own dog back home eats Real nature, but one my housemate's dogs has recently been diagnosed as celiac so he's on an all raw meat diet, the other two adults are on High 5 and the pup is on Skinners (this has to be bought in from England). They're all doing well on them. We're hoping to move all four onto raw because the oldest is doing so well on it. If you don't want to go the raw route, the most important thing is make sure you go for a food with a high meat content listed as the first ingredient, and something with as little cereals as possible.

Louboutfan

She's a lab.

What do you mean by a raw diet - like raw meat? Sorry I'm clueless!:o

Rommie

Yup, a diet of just raw meat and bones. The oldest fella is on 800g meat a day, 100g of bone, 50g organ and 50g liver. And he's doing brilliant on it. He's even pooping way less and there's less to clean up. He's 58kgs though, that's why he's on so much, but a smaller dog would be on less. Last time we went shopping for meat for him it cost 18euro for just under two weeks of food. So about forty euro a month to feed him. Royal Canin is about 70 i think?

andreac

Theres a big difference between the normal royal canin and then the veterinary prescription Royal Canin and the latter is very good for specific medical conditions and cannot be compared to the normal Royal Canin at all as they are very different.

Why is she on the pediatric one, has she a medical condition? Im sure its very expensive is it and unless theres an underlying medical condition that means you have to feed it then i would change her to something else.

When you change foods, do you do it very gradually? If you dont it will cause tummy upset etc so maybe thats the problem you are having. Also, you say she doesnt like it, how long do you give her to get used to it? You need to be strict and not give in at the first hurdle if she turns her nose up at it.

Louboutfan

Hi - thanks for you response.

She doesn't have a specific medical condition and this food isn't for anything in particular - other than the vet recommended it. It's just called 'Royal Canin pediatric Junior large dog'.

Yes, I am switching the foods very gradually - over a period of a week to 10 days. The last food she was on was Select Gold by Maxi zoo and she had terrible gas, soft stools and her tummy was making gargling noises all the time. When I explained this to the vet he recommended the Royal Canin Vet care and said it was a super premium food.

andreac

How much is it per bag if you dont mind me asking? There are plenty of other foods on sale that might suit. Arden Grange, Burns, Eukanuba, Clinivet etc that might suit your dog and are far cheaper than R.C.

Louboutfan

We paid €29.95 for a 4 kg bag. They had Burns too but recommended this over Burns - I think they are appox. the same price?

andreac

Yeah course he would, sure hes getting commission for selling it!!

29 for 4 kg, thats madness!! You can get a very good quality food for about 30-50 for a 15kg bag. Theres no point buying a 4kg, as im sure that hardly lasts that long at all, does it?

Better off buying a big bag and its more economical.

I would def look into getting something else. Have a look at zooplus, or dogfooddirect.ie. lots of great deals online there.

westies4ever

andreac wrote: »

Better off buying a big bag and its more economical.

This. But just make sure you buy a food bin with a sealable lid so the food doesnt go off. Most pet food suppliers can get you one.

paultf

Louboutfan wrote: »

We paid €29.95 for a 4 kg bag. They had Burns too but recommended this over Burns - I think they are appox. the same price?

If you are thinking of Burns, there is a good alternative called Skinners. There is a great thread here about it:- http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76455856

At the moment I have one of my dogs on Skinners duck & rice. From what I can tell it seems to be the same as Burns: low protein, 20% meat - the only difference is Burns has 60% brown rice whereas Skinners have 40%.

Not sure if online suits but you can get Skinners on Amazon: £20 for 15kg with free delivery. Setup a 'Subscribe & Save' a/c, say how often you want the food delivered and they automatically deliver.

Skinners have a junior version too.

Louboutfan

andreac wrote: »

Yeah course he would, sure hes getting commission for selling it!!

29 for 4 kg, thats madness!! You can get a very good quality food for about 30-50 for a 15kg bag. Theres no point buying a 4kg, as im sure that hardly lasts that long at all, does it?

Better off buying a big bag and its more economical.

I would def look into getting something else. Have a look at zooplus, or dogfooddirect.ie. lots of great deals online there.

Yes but he sells RC & Burns so he's making a commission on both! He recommended the RC over Burns.

Obviously I know the big bags are more economical but we got a small bag to make sure it agreed with her first! I already got caught that way when I bought a big bag of Orijen for her and she turned her nose up at it!

I'm not really concerned with getting a deal as such - I don't mind what the foods costs. I'm more interested in giving my dog the best food I can that she will (a) eat and (b) tolerate.

cormac_byrne

Louboutfan wrote: »

I'm not really concerned with getting a deal as such - I don't mind what the foods costs. I'm more interested in giving my dog the best food I can that she will (a) eat and (b) tolerate.

There's plenty on info on dogfoodproject.com that will help you evaluating different products.

DBB

Like a lot of other people, I was always a great fan of getting the best dry food I could afford. I suppose I was kind of lucky back then in that, when I first got my very own dogs, the quality of the good quality foods was reasonably good. These foods include Royal Canin, James Wellbeloved, Nutro and others.
However, I have finally concluded that most of the dry foods available now are, quite frankly, crap. They are trading on the strength of a reputation they don't deserve to have any more. Full of cereals, derivatives, colourants, flavorings, any meat they contain has been cooked, cooked and cooked again.
I think dry foods are a major cause of early death in dogs, dogs aged 10ish years of age, with kidney and liver problems. A shiny coat and plenty of energy in a young dog is simply not a good enough indicator of how good the diet is. It's when the dog starts to age that the effects of a lifetime of dry feeding kicks in. The problem with this is that, because it happens later in life, the connection is not made by the owner. But steeped in dogdom as I am, I see many, many more dogs of the older (10+) age group dying of diseases and cancers of the throat, kidneys, liver, and pancreas, than I did years ago. This is not to mention the huge number of younger dogs suffering from rumbly-tummy, flatulence, loose stools, problematical anal glands, and various diet-related behavioural problems that I see on a regular basis.
Whilst I used to painstakingly research various dry foods to advise dog owners to use, I'm now at the stage where I cannot, in all good consciousness, recommend pretty much any of the dry foods any more.
I feed my own dogs raw. Two of them are aged 10+, and I can directly affect such conditions as joint problems, digestive health, and mental health by targeting their diets to their age group. I also advise owners to feed raw, because at worst, you know what's going into your dog with it. But in fact, the benefits of feeding a fresh, natural diet far surpasses just this advantage.
If I had to have my arm twisted and was ordered by my dogs to feed them dry, then I'd be going for one of two brands. One is Barking Heads (hard enough to get but hopefully gaining ground), and Taste of the Wild (available on zooplus.ie). And even then I'd be supplementing the dry food with some fresh meat and fish, and meaty bones!
OP, why not write to a few of these companies and get some free samples, see if your lady likes them? Or better again, switch slowly to raw!

Irishchick

Where do people get this idea that vets get commission from dog food. No vet I know gets a commission from RC

I was responsible for the ordering for a while in my last practice and we certainly didn't get any "commission".

Like everything there is a mark up on the food but its next to nothing. If a vet really want to make money he'd try to sell extra drugs (which have a 100% mark up) instead of food/prescription food.

DBB

Irishchick wrote: »

Where do people get this idea that vets get commission from dog food. No vet I know gets a commission from RC

What about Hill's Science Plan? RC is only recently becoming available in vet surgeries so can't comment for this brand, but any vets I've asked have grinned widely when asked what commission/mark up they get for Hill's. I can't remember how much it is, but it is substantial, or at least was when I asked.
As for Burns, I have received deals from them, as has my vet, which gave me the opportunity to add as much as 50% to the price I paid for it in order to match shop prices.
Likewise for other popular brands over the years.

Irishchick

I can't speak for hills but the mark up on RC certainly wasn't anything to write home about.

paultf

DBB wrote: »

As for Burns, I have received deals from them, as has my vet, which gave me the opportunity to add as much as 50% to the price I paid for it in order to match shop prices.
Likewise for other popular brands over the years.

50% is some markup! A pet store near me sells Burns for ~€55.

Do pet stores have a markup as high as that?

With such profit, no wonder there are so many foods on the market.

Pauvre Con

If dry foods are generally so poor why do the vets recommend it?

DBB

Pauvre Con wrote: »

If dry foods are generally so poor why do the vets recommend it?

Several reasons already addressed here.
They do not get much in the way of formal training in dietary needs in dogs. The only "training" they get is from the dog food companies, which is highly biased. It is also complicated by the fact that there is good money to be made from selling it.
Health problems which are diet related are extremely common in dogs, yet vets seem to be generally poor at making the connection.
Many vets also freely give out behavioural advice, when they are not trained in it. So much so that in many cases the advice they can give is disastrously poor and even dangerous. Lack of training in these fields does not seem to stop many vets from advising on them anyway, when they really have no business doing so, unless they make it their business to learn more or become qualified in those fields.
Vets study veterinary medicine. This does not make them some sort of oracles in all animal matters, and just because they sell x, y or z doesn't mean that's what's best for your dog. A local vet near me sells choke chains and remote controlled shock collars, for goodness sake.

Pauvre Con

I've got to believe a vet would put an animal's welfare ahead of business. Plus I've never been recommended a particular brand of dry food - just simply advised to continue feeding it to the dog. Still, this thread and the other one on the go (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056759928) has given me pause for thought. I can see the logic of a more natural diet being healthier. I've always imagined regularly giving fresh meat to a dog ending up costing an arm and leg though!

Irishchick

I've got to believe a vet would put an animal's welfare ahead of business.

99.9% of them do.

I've always imagined regularly giving fresh meat to a dog ending up costing an arm and leg though!

It doesn't if your smart about it. If you decide to start adding meat then source a local butcher (not tesco or any other supermarket). Ask him for chicken/turkey necks, beef heart, lambs liver. These are cheap cuts. also ask him what days he kills on and if possible could he keep you some bones and off cuts. Most butchers will.

Just be aware that there is a risk of choking/perforation with bones so I'd always make sure the bone is the right size for the dog and supervise when a dog is with a bone.

Pauvre Con

Thanks. How would you judge what is the correct amount to give though? Obviously the dry food comes with detailed instructions on quantity in relation to weight and age but if you're giving the dog all sorts of different cuts of meat...

andreac

Pauvre Con wrote: »

Thanks. How would you judge what is the correct amount to give though? Obviously the dry food comes with detailed instructions on quantity in relation to weight and age but if you're giving the dog all sorts of different cuts of meat...

If you do a search online it recommends how much in weight to give in relation to your dogs weight.

I stand corrected but im nearly sure its 2% of the dogs weight in food, more for a puppy, think thats 5% but i havent seen the info for a while so i could be wrong.:o

gregers85

I recently changed from royal canin to another brand, I have always found it a good food that suited my dogs! I had to change due to price issues really!! whilst researching a new food I came across this website its well worth a look through to see if your food is on it and what it really does for the dog! it rates the food with a star system!

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/

DBB

Irishchick wrote: »

These are cheap cuts. also ask him what days he kills on and if possible could he keep you some bones and off cuts. Most butchers will.

I wouldn't be relying on sourcing meat in this way from your butcher, for the simple reason that the vast majority of butchers do not kill animals on their premises any more, as they must be a licenced abbatoir to do so, which most butchers aren't.
For this reason, it can be difficult to get stuff that humans don't tend to eat, like some offal, chicken necks etc, although some butchers will source them for your from elsewhere if you're lucky.

Pauvre Con wrote: »

I've got to believe a vet would put an animal's welfare ahead of business.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe the vast majority of vets recommend dry food for nefarious reasons. The problem is that, like with behavioural issues, a lot of vets don't actually realise how much they don't know about it, and don't necessarily realise there are better alternatives.
I don't know how many vets I've come across who give out behavioural advice based on having watched a few editions of Cesar Milan. However, some vets are now aware that there are qualified behavioural specialists about, and happily are more than happy to refer their clients to the people who are trained to deal with these issue. I can only assume and hope the same happens with food.
So, I don't believe that most vets would compromise a pet's health on purpose.

Pauvre Con wrote: »

How would you judge what is the correct amount to give though? Obviously the dry food comes with detailed instructions on quantity in relation to weight and age but if you're giving the dog all sorts of different cuts of meat...

You're usually talking about 3% of body weight per day. To give some perspective, I feed my 38kg GSD for about €9 per week on fresh meat, bones, and a wee bit of veg, which is about the same, if not a little less, as I'd pay to feed her one of the more expensive dry food.
Have a look at www.dogsfirst.ie , there's a lot of good info on there to get you going!

Coggy2012

I just bought a 14kg bag of hypoallergenic, it was infested with bugs. I'll be looking for the €100 (Well €97) back on that crap.

Lizard_Moon

Everyone who has a retail business has a markup on their products.
We sell dog food as our clients request it. If I sold it at cost price I would lose money due to the overheads of running a business.
That is not even taking to account the debt caused to my practice by some people assuming that they don't have to pay for my clinic staff's time, expertise and drugs etc.

I was very interested to read, in the RAW food threads, that products are available for purchase that take all the 'hassle' out of dealing with raw food. I assume the people selling these will have a mark up. Personally if I ever considered feeding my 15 yr old raw food- I don't he gets Hills- I would not feed a roll of "meat" to him. I have terrible memories of corned beef and Billy Roll as a kid.........

JustAThought

Hmm- i have a thing for billy roll + Chef Salad Cream and corned beef!!! Different tastes!!! I have to whisper my order to the girl at.the.deli.sandwich counter!! The shame!!

My dog was on RC vets - the hills, ordinary RC, JamesWellBeloved ( same factory different brand) etc all ran through her. Then they changed the ingredients of the RC perscription stuff to * duck* and it was almost e80 a bag and didnt agree with her. Horrors.

I figured out it was cheeper feeding her salomn from lidl/aldi which i did for a while. Then i got jealous + found a.salmon + potato * home made* kibble at e20 for a 15kg bag - from the Irish Rosette Pet shop + kennels near lusk on the old belfast road.

Also. This stuff from www.bestformydog.com which aldo totally agred with her + they will deliver to work/ home whatever. GREAT service. Ask Paul for samples - they have a large range + its very good. I used buy the yellow +/ purple bags - cant remember the names offhand but they.went down well + came back out equally well! I cant remember the price but it was equally fair + managable .

Ive.no doubt vets get a mark-up +get trade prices on their stock. So do butchers. Etc. Thats just.a. commercial reality.

If my dog got a perforated anything from her food I would never get past it. + i dont intend boiling bones or supervising a gnawing dog for hours. Each to their own - dogs have survived on scraps + bones or generations.

Im guessing that the biggest growth industry would be testing + checking their product. I know they employ nutritionists + science grads - its not just randomly.choosen off a cubord shelf. And no doubt litigation let alone legislation keeps the * proper* guys all in check .