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Mortgage Moritorium/Payment Holiday/Break

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  • 19-09-2012 2:17pm
    #1
    bigburd
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭


    My mortgage is with ptsb - they used to allow 3 moritoriums during the term of the mortgage.

    Does anyone know if this is still the case?


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    #2
    tony81
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭tony81


    bigburd wrote: »
    My mortgage is with ptsb - they used to allow 3 moritoriums during the term of the mortgage.

    Does anyone know if this is still the case?
    I think so, but it will depend on your house value and remaining mortgage


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    #3
    chris85
    Registered Users Posts: 4,502 ✭✭✭chris85


    Depends on your situation. If you want 3 months off due to financial difficulties then they will consider it and will go into your situation more before approving. If it's so you can go on holiday or something like that the answer is no.

    Also some mortgages include option for a limited payment break during the term. For instance UB had on some mortgage products a 6 month break which could be taken at any time once only for any reason.


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    #4
    poppers
    Registered Users Posts: 622 ✭✭✭poppers


    bigburd wrote: »
    My mortgage is with ptsb - they used to allow 3 moritoriums during the term of the mortgage.

    Does anyone know if this is still the case?

    still available according to this

    https://www.permanenttsb.ie/media/permanenttsb/pdfdocuments/Flexible-Mortgage-Options.pdf


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    #5
    Speculator
    Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭Speculator


    poppers wrote: »
    bigburd wrote: »
    My mortgage is with ptsb - they used to allow 3 moritoriums during the term of the mortgage.

    Does anyone know if this is still the case?

    still available according to this

    https://www.permanenttsb.ie/media/permanenttsb/pdfdocuments/Flexible-Mortgage-Options.pdf
    Yes it should be still available, but it will be dealt with on a case by case basis. You may have to complete a reduced repayment form.


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    #6
    siralan
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭siralan


    I have 2 mortgages, my own house is with ICS and were paying over 5% and I also have a buy to let with a rate of 5.5% with bank of ireland. Im busting my ass every month to pay these and have not defaulted on any yet. Im in negative equity on both properties and am frustrated in that new customers with no lending history can walk in off the street and borrow at 2%.

    What is the situation if I was to default on one or both properties? Im so fed up of hearing stories of developers and other mortgage holders receiving monotoriums and payment holidays or debt write downs. I know one developer who borrowed 1million interest only on land which he never got to build on. He has other assets which he has an option to cash in on and the bank are aware of this. They have in recent weeks offered him a debt write down of €700,000 if he sells his other property and gives them a chq for €300,000. This is a 'behind closed doors' deal but these offers dont seem to be on the table for the ordinary Joe Bloggs.

    I have 33 years left on one mortgage and am probably 100k in negative equity which is close to 200k including the interest over that period. Am I better throw back the keys and let the bank worry about the house or keep paying and hope that inflation and an improvement in property prices will eventually swallow up my losses ?

    Has anyone experience of similar with either Bank of Ireland or ICS ??


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    #7
    chris85
    Registered Users Posts: 4,502 ✭✭✭chris85


    siralan wrote: »
    I have 2 mortgages, my own house is with ICS and were paying over 5% and I also have a buy to let with a rate of 5.5% with bank of ireland. Im busting my ass every month to pay these and have not defaulted on any yet. Im in negative equity on both properties and am frustrated in that new customers with no lending history can walk in off the street and borrow at 2%.

    What is the situation if I was to default on one or both properties? Im so fed up of hearing stories of developers and other mortgage holders receiving monotoriums and payment holidays or debt write downs. I know one developer who borrowed 1million interest only on land which he never got to build on. He has other assets which he has an option to cash in on and the bank are aware of this. They have in recent weeks offered him a debt write down of €700,000 if he sells his other property and gives them a chq for €300,000. This is a 'behind closed doors' deal but these offers dont seem to be on the table for the ordinary Joe Bloggs.

    I have 33 years left on one mortgage and am probably 100k in negative equity which is close to 200k including the interest over that period. Am I better throw back the keys and let the bank worry about the house or keep paying and hope that inflation and an improvement in property prices will eventually swallow up my losses ?

    Has anyone experience of similar with either Bank of Ireland or ICS ??

    Ok firstly you put your money into the property market as an investment on the buy to let property. You speculated it would be worth more after and it has not so you need to deal with the responsibility of the mortgages.

    5.5% rate is also a low rate when you consider rates elsewhere in Europe. The fact others are getting lower is a moot point. Not going to change it. I have a small loan at a rate I agreed to pay it back at and I will, others can walk off the street and get a loan slightly cheaper, does it bother me? No, the reason being I was fully aware the rate I would be repaying at the time of getting the loan and was good in the market at the time. Also not many people are getting loans with no lending history these days. Criterion are strict for lending these days.

    Ultimately if you default the banks can chase you for the properties through the courts and then sell the properties. You will be on the hook for the negative equity included so giving them the keys back will not mean that you get off without paying anything.

    Options are to pay as agreed, renegotiate with the bank for interest only for a period of time or some similar negotiation (this is a short term solution), or to default and have the bank chase you for the debt.

    Edit: Seen on previous post you are actually considering investing in the banks and you have €50k spare in savings. You must be the typical Joe Bloggs struggling to meet payments!


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    #8
    killers1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭killers1


    siralan wrote: »
    I have 2 mortgages, my own house is with ICS and were paying over 5% and I also have a buy to let with a rate of 5.5% with bank of ireland. Im busting my ass every month to pay these and have not defaulted on any yet. Im in negative equity on both properties and am frustrated in that new customers with no lending history can walk in off the street and borrow at 2%.

    What is the situation if I was to default on one or both properties? Im so fed up of hearing stories of developers and other mortgage holders receiving monotoriums and payment holidays or debt write downs. I know one developer who borrowed 1million interest only on land which he never got to build on. He has other assets which he has an option to cash in on and the bank are aware of this. They have in recent weeks offered him a debt write down of €700,000 if he sells his other property and gives them a chq for €300,000. This is a 'behind closed doors' deal but these offers dont seem to be on the table for the ordinary Joe Bloggs.

    I have 33 years left on one mortgage and am probably 100k in negative equity which is close to 200k including the interest over that period. Am I better throw back the keys and let the bank worry about the house or keep paying and hope that inflation and an improvement in property prices will eventually swallow up my losses ?

    Has anyone experience of similar with either Bank of Ireland or ICS ??

    Firstly nobody is borrowing at 2% these days. Your existing rates are similar to Boi & ICS's current rates. You can forget about any kind of write down on either performing loan. Forget about including the €100k interest paid as NE. If that was they way it was calculated every mortgage holder in the country would have been in NE on every mortgage ever issued. If you are €100k in NE spread across 2 properties (what's the split?) maybe approach the bank to see if they'll allow you to sell the investment property and service a loan for the remaining balance o/s which might reduce your monthly outgoings substantially.

    @Chris - I think you misread the other thread as I did initially too.


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    #9
    chris85
    Registered Users Posts: 4,502 ✭✭✭chris85


    killers1 wrote: »
    @Chris - I think you misread the other thread as I did initially too.

    ok maybe looked like op said had €50k spare. granted he wanted to invest this in education for himself but having €50k around doesnt shout mortgage troubles. i still think the op just has a gripe about having bought when he did. My view on that is that it was a speculation made by him on property market and needs to deal with it.


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    #10
    siralan
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭siralan


    I totally accept that I bought when I did and the 100k negative equity is on one property, the other property is probably worth close to whats owed. I just feel that the middle income individual is being crucified all the time. The high earner chooses not to pay and the low income cant pay. I gave the example of a colleague of mine who had a bank offer him a €700,000 write down on a field thats worthless. He stopped paying his interest only a year ago on it and the bank approached him. He still has property overseas worth money , his own house which he has transferred into his sons name and a farm of land which is legally owned in a 'ltd company' so cant be touched. He still lives a highlife, Im not jealous of this but feel dismayed that there is absoulutely no break for the ordinary guy in the street. Meanwhile my interest rates are climbing and Im supposed to just lie back and take it. Previous posts shouldnt cloud the topic of something else but as far as the 50k went, it cleared my wifes car loan, went towards prelimary tax for next year and allowed me to take 11k off the investment property which had an interest rate of 5.6%.


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    #11
    chris85
    Registered Users Posts: 4,502 ✭✭✭chris85


    siralan wrote: »
    I totally accept that I bought when I did and the 100k negative equity is on one property, the other property is probably worth close to whats owed. I just feel that the middle income individual is being crucified all the time. The high earner chooses not to pay and the low income cant pay. I gave the example of a colleague of mine who had a bank offer him a €700,000 write down on a field thats worthless. He stopped paying his interest only a year ago on it and the bank approached him. He still has property overseas worth money , his own house which he has transferred into his sons name and a farm of land which is legally owned in a 'ltd company' so cant be touched. He still lives a highlife, Im not jealous of this but feel dismayed that there is absoulutely no break for the ordinary guy in the street. Meanwhile my interest rates are climbing and Im supposed to just lie back and take it. Previous posts shouldnt cloud the topic of something else but as far as the 50k went, it cleared my wifes car loan, went towards prelimary tax for next year and allowed me to take 11k off the investment property which had an interest rate of 5.6%.

    I doubt your friend is telling the full story about the land. in most cases the if the person is living a good life and has cash they can and will make them declare bankruptcy in court.

    Everyone talks about these developers getting away with everything. I dont agree, some are but the majority have had everything taken from them. A few have business interests which stayed solid, away from property, and thus appear to have a good lifestyle from these but the developers who only had the property market are being hounded through the courts, made bankrupt. There are plenty who are not getting away with it at all.

    Everyone has legal and moral implications to stand by with finances. If I take out a loan I know what I am getting myself in for. I legally owe the money and feel a moral duty to pay it back. Its how many of us were raised. I dont like the banks whatsoever but if I do go looking for money from them I will pay them back.

    Take it on the chin. Otherwise default if you wish and deal with the consequences. Yes the bank will chase and take the properties eventually and you will still owe money.


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    #12
    tony81
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭tony81


    chris85 wrote: »

    Everyone has legal and moral implications to stand by with finances. If I take out a loan I know what I am getting myself in for. .

    Hmm.. Legal obligation does not mean to work yourself to the bone for no reward.. Bankruptcy and the courts are legal mechanisms too.

    Moral obligation.. Do banks have a moral obligation to keep interest rates reasonable? Do you have a moral obligation to give your family a nice standard of living instead of throwing money into a black hole?

    You also said ppl know what they're getting in to.. No, they didn't. Banks hid their true financial situation and no one could have predicted the bailouts which took thousands of out the average taxpayer's pocket.

    This isn't black or white/right or wrong.

    Therefore, if there's an easy out for someone they should def take it. It's the government's responsibility to ensure people get a fair deal and that it's not just the rich that get easy ways out.


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    #13
    chris85
    Registered Users Posts: 4,502 ✭✭✭chris85


    tony81 wrote: »
    Hmm.. Legal obligation does not mean to work yourself to the bone for no reward.. Bankruptcy and the courts are legal mechanisms too.

    Moral obligation.. Do banks have a moral obligation to keep interest rates reasonable? Do you have a moral obligation to give your family a nice standard of living instead of throwing money into a black hole?

    You also said ppl know what they're getting in to.. No, they didn't. Banks hid their true financial situation and no one could have predicted the bailouts which took thousands of out the average taxpayer's pocket.

    This isn't black or white/right or wrong.

    Therefore, if there's an easy out for someone they should def take it. It's the government's responsibility to ensure people get a fair deal and that it's not just the rich that get easy ways out.

    We have among the lowest rates in Europe with banks that are in a heap and could do with a higher rate to improve renvenue but its a major trade off with the aability of people to pay. This rates thing is bull, we dont have high interest rates.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0414/1224314729260.html

    People do know what they are getting themselves into with mortgages. People do not take it lightly and understand they are buying a house and this is a big thing. The solicitor also has a responsibility to advise them of the legal agreement they are entering into. I cant agree that people just go searching for a mortgage with no thought given to consequences.

    I have some sympathy for people in distress with mortgage on family home but for those who invested in second and third properties in order to make money with rent and sell on the property were greedy if they did so without the ability to take the hit from it if it went bad.


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    #14
    tony81
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭tony81


    chris85 wrote: »

    I have some sympathy for people in distress with mortgage on family home but for those who invested in second and third properties in order to make money with rent and sell on the property were greedy if they did so without the ability to take the hit from it if it went bad.

    Yes, i know rates are relatively low but neg equity should be treated as a special case by the government, in that they should force banks to keep rates low and reintroduce TRS for PPRs. The government's responsibility is the Irish people, not banks.
    Hilariously, the government are giving tax breaks to people who buy now, neg equity protection, while banks are giving good introductory rates. It's quite perverse.

    As for 2nd/3rd property holders, yes it's hard to have sympathy but legally they can avail of bankruptcy where available. It's up to the government to legislate fairly for bankruptcy and the banks to deal fairly with mortgage holders.

    End of the day, people can leave Ireland if they're not getting a fair deal here.. Not just as a result of bankruptcy procedures, but also tax rates, quality of life, salaries, even laws (we can drink here, not in saudi arabia... No gay marriage here, but there is in other countries, etc.) These are arguments that might sound silly or trivial but I'm trying to make a point.

    Irish people aren't pawns of the Irish state.. They're humans who have a lot more rights than you're giving them credit for.


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    #15
    chris85
    Registered Users Posts: 4,502 ✭✭✭chris85


    Yes, i know rates are relatively low but neg equity should be treated as a special case by the government, in that they should force banks to keep rates low and reintroduce TRS for PPRs. The government's responsibility is the Irish people, not banks.
    Hilariously, the government are giving tax breaks to people who buy now, neg equity protection, while banks are giving good introductory rates. It's quite perverse.

    Ok so we are agreed, rates are low here.
    As for 2nd/3rd property holders, yes it's hard to have sympathy but legally they can avail of bankruptcy where available. It's up to the government to legislate fairly for bankruptcy and the banks to deal fairly with mortgage holders.

    They can avail or be forced into it. Bankruptcy gets thrown around a lot as the solution to everythin. Terrible ordeal for anyone to be involved with. For some people its an option to start over but they lose everything they have now.
    End of the day, people can leave Ireland if they're not getting a fair deal here.. Not just as a result of bankruptcy procedures, but also tax rates, quality of life, salaries, even laws (we can drink here, not in saudi arabia... No gay marriage here, but there is in other countries, etc.) These are arguments that might sound silly or trivial but I'm trying to make a point.

    Freedom of movement no doubt. Thats a choice regardless of this argument. Straying a bit off the point of the argument.
    Irish people aren't pawns of the Irish state.. They're humans who have a lot more rights than you're giving them credit for.

    People deserve rights no doubt. A good quality of life is important along with education and health. All paramount. However this cant be used as an excuse to not pay for the extra property somebody invested in and the investment went south and now they want an out.

    I am a taxpayer and I am ok with help provided to someone who is trying to keep a family home but I draw the line with writing off debt for someone who invested in a property and its not working out for them. Its a business choice and these things go bad sometimes. Deal with it!


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    #16
    tony81
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭tony81


    Bankruptcy isn't for every situation. Why are you trying to argue with me on this point?

    Rational people will deal with their situation as dispassionately as possible. The moral element is acting within laws and regulations.


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    #17
    tony81
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭tony81


    chris85 wrote: »
    Ok so we are agreed, rates are low here.

    Oh, and No. Rates are relatively low.


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    #18
    chris85
    Registered Users Posts: 4,502 ✭✭✭chris85


    tony81 wrote: »
    Bankruptcy isn't for every situation. Why are you trying to argue with me on this point?

    Rational people will deal with their situation as dispassionately as possible. The moral element is acting within laws and regulations.

    Im not arguing with you, im debating. I dont agree with some of the points you are mentioning and providing my views on it.


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    #19
    westies4ever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,456 ✭✭✭westies4ever


    chris85 wrote: »
    Depends on your situation. If you want 3 months off due to financial difficulties then they will consider it and will go into your situation more before approving. If it's so you can go on holiday or something like that the answer is no.

    Also some mortgages include option for a limited payment break during the term. For instance UB had on some mortgage products a 6 month break which could be taken at any time once only for any reason.

    Not so - i did it this year for 3 months (march/april/may) - we had major extra expenses as my step daughter was getting married and we helped her. unless it has changed since then.

    my house is negative equiry but my mortgage was up-to-date - think this is key. we just filled in the form - see the link poppers posted and posted it in. got a reply letter within the week saying it was grand. they just added the 3 months on to the end of the mortgage so my monthly payment went up slightly.


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    #20
    tony81
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭tony81


    chris85 wrote: »
    Im not arguing with you, im debating. I dont agree with some of the points you are mentioning and providing my views on it.

    You said "Bankruptcy gets thrown around a lot as the solution to everythin. Terrible ordeal", which means you're not debating but simply backing up my point. Fact is, it is a solution, but one of many options any rational person should consider.

    Similarly, if people need to emigrate to keep up with mortgage payments, a foreign bankruptcy may be worth looking in to.


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    #21
    chris85
    Registered Users Posts: 4,502 ✭✭✭chris85


    westies4ever wrote: »
    Not so - i did it this year for 3 months (march/april/may) - we had major extra expenses as my step daughter was getting married and we helped her. unless it has changed since then.

    my house is negative equiry but my mortgage was up-to-date - think this is key. we just filled in the form - see the link poppers posted and posted it in. got a reply letter within the week saying it was grand. they just added the 3 months on to the end of the mortgage so my monthly payment went up slightly.

    As mentioned, some banks have included a payment holiday which can be taken for any reason. If your banks dont then you are more the minority for getting a payment break to save for a wedding.


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    #22
    chris85
    Registered Users Posts: 4,502 ✭✭✭chris85


    tony81 wrote: »
    Oh, and No. Rates are relatively low.

    Now who is arguing. Fourth lowest rates in Europe, low or relatively low. They are low rates, but relatively low to what we want to be paying! You suggested earlier the banks have a moral obligation to have resonable interest rates. They are reasonable, fourth lowest in Europe.


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    #23
    BuffyBot
    Registered Users Posts: 24,924 ✭✭✭✭BuffyBot


    Take the bickering to PM


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    #24
    westies4ever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,456 ✭✭✭westies4ever


    chris85 wrote: »

    As mentioned, some banks have included a payment holiday which can be taken for any reason. If your banks dont then you are more the minority for getting a payment break to save for a wedding.


    Im ptsb like op.


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