Sabra and Shatila

losthorizon

This month marks the 30th anniversary of the massacres at Sabra and Shatila.

I was 13 at the time and I think that along with Bosnia I found it the most shocking thing to have occurred in my lifetime (twin towers as well).

What made this worse in mind was the savegery of the killings, the fact that the Israeli army let in the killers, could see what was going on from their command posts, could monitor all the radio traffic inside the camp and during the night fired shells to light up the night sky so the killing could continue. Truly awful stuff.
http://www.euronews.com/2012/09/17/sabra-and-shatila-massacre-30-years-on/

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

israel. a great bunch of lads

My name is URL

Well than fcuk things have progressed since then

castletownman

Without diverting away from the tragedy, it some indictment of today's society that both Sabra and Shatila sound like some celebrity baby names.

3ndahalfof6

I agree, but for me in my time on this fooked up planet,

http://www.adl.org/education/curriculum_connections/spring_2005/spring_2005_lesson3_Rwandan_Genocide_1994.asp

a lot of the killings were pure savagery, beheading parents in front of their children.

Zebra3

losthorizon wrote: »

This month marks the 30th anniversary of the massacres at Sabra and Shatila.

I was 13 at the time and I think that along with Bosnia I found it the most shocking thing to have occurred in my lifetime (twin towers as well).

What made this worse in mind was the savegery of the killings, the fact that the Israeli army let in the killers, could see what was going on from their command posts, could monitor all the radio traffic inside the camp and during the night fired shells to light up the night sky so the killing could continue. Truly awful stuff.
http://www.euronews.com/2012/09/17/sabra-and-shatila-massacre-30-years-on/

Strange how Ariel Sharon never ended up in the Hague over all that. :rolleyes:

The media's silence on those events is shameful and an indictment of how in the West's eyes the Palestinians simply "don't count".

Imagine the rolls were reversed and hundreds of Israelis had been butchered by Arab sponsored terrorists.

This is from Robert Fisk's amazing From Beirut to Bosnia series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pWwkVfbY10

losthorizon

Zebra3 wrote: »

Strange how Ariel Sharon never ended up in the Hague over all that. :rolleyes:

The media's silence on those events is shameful and an indictment of how in the West's eyes the Palestinians simply "don't count".

Imagine the rolls were reversed and hundreds of Israelis had been butchered by Arab sponsored terrorists.

This is from Robert Fisk's amazing From Beirut to Bosnia series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pWwkVfbY10

Powerful stuff. Fisk is a fantastic journalist to read.

A great book to read is Beware of Small States: Lebanon, Battleground of the Middle East especially the last few chapters.

KenSwee

No leader from Israel will ever answer in an international court of law. It's like the President of the USA or Prime Minister of Britain ending up in the dock.

Every year we hear about Israel and it's deference of it's citizens, always at a cost to innocent men, women and even children.
My rule is simple, maybe too simple for some, but I firmly believe when children are killed as a direct result of a conflict between two nations, then it has to stop.

Israel is a well funded, well supported state that has carte blanche when it comes to behaving like terrorists. They don't need to defend their actions, because, frankly, according to them, they are the race chosen by God and have every right to break international laws, use fake passports from other sovereign states, kidnap foreign citizens, ignore extradition rules, hide nuclear weapons, commit acts of terrorism themselves, murder without trial, board ships in international water, murder innocent people and murder children.

The Government of Israel's agenda is to hit their neighbors as hard as possible. It sickens me that people still regard the Israeli state as democratic, despite the despicable acts of terror they have committed over the last 40 years. They can't even play a game of football with any of their neighbors!

Yea, I know some will say this an over the top rant, but take a look at what the Israeli government have been involved in over the last 40 years and also, don't forget that no matter what they try to say, they were responsible for the deaths of over 300 hundred Palestinian children in 2008 and 2009. Don't be fooled by what you may hear about Mossad. They have as much blood on their hands as any terrorist group, much of it innocent blood. Take a look at the attack on the Sands Hotel in Beirut in 1973, codenamed Operation Spring of Youth. This attack, a revenge killing for the Munich attack in 1972, resulted in innocent bystanders being murdered in an attempt to carry out a killing of three Palestinian Liberation Organisation members. One of the Mossad agents in that attack was the future Prime Minister of Israel, Ehud Barak! Incredibly, some of these thugs were decorated afterwards. In spite of the fact that a considerable number of innocent people were killed. Also, in an act of revenge for the Munich attack, another innocent man, Ahmed Bouchiki, was murdered by Mossad after he was mistakenly identified as a Palestinian terrorist. He was shot in front of his pregnant wife while leaving a cinema in Lillyhammer, Norway. Six agents were arrested, but five received very short prison terms. Israel actually tried to pay off Bouchiki's wife, even though they never had the balls to admit they carried out the crime! Mossad's specialty is sneaking around the world committing acts of terror and assassinations in the name of the Israeli state and democracy. I'm not sure what type of democracy they have, but it's not my type. And you might say that all these acts could be called unfortunate, or even collateral damage, if you were that cynical, but I'd love to hear your view if it happened to one of your family members.

Events such as the above should warrant a tougher stance, but, alas, no nation has had the courage to stand up against them. Is it war guilt? I don't know, but I don't think anybody should use that as an excuse to allow the Israeli government to do what it likes. Millions of Jews were murdered in WWII, not Israelis, and despite those horrific acts of genocide, Israel should not be allowed to commit its own war crimes and get away with it 'because we owe them one'. Poland and Germany have a terrible history of conflict between them, yet today they are no longer enemies. Civilised behavior, unlike Israel. We never hear talk of peace and reconciliation from the Israeli government. It's all an eye for an eye: Old Testament talk. It doesn't matter that some of their targets are terrorists. There are other ways to bring somebody to justice. Other nations like Ireland abide by these ways, but it seems that Mossad and the government of Israel have no time for that. And I don't care if other nations are doing it, too. They claim to be a democratic state, but act like a rogue one.

Laws are laws and I'm quite sure that if the Irish government used fake Israeli passports to get into a country and assassinate somebody, even a terrorist, we would not be allowed to walk away with a slap on the wrist.

Murder is murder, no matter what God given right you think you have. I am not allowed to kill somebody in revenge, and neither should the Israeli government.

Guilty as charged.

Zebra3

KenSwee wrote: »

according to them, they are the race chosen by God

Supremacists.

Pottler

Who else feels dumb because they thought this was some sort of X-factor thread?:o Edit, that's just me so. Ahem.. No, I knew, I did, honest..

3ndahalfof6

KenSwee wrote: »

No leader from Israel will ever answer in an international court of law. It's like the President of the USA or Prime Minister of Britain ending up in the dock.

Every year we hear about Israel and it's deference of it's citizens, always at a cost to innocent men, women and even children.
My rule is simple, maybe too simple for some, but I firmly believe when children are killed as a direct result of a conflict between two nations, then it has to stop.

Israel is a well funded, well supported state that has carte blanche when it comes to behaving like terrorists. They don't need to defend their actions, because, frankly, according to them, they are the race chosen by God and have every right to break international laws, use fake passports from other sovereign states, kidnap foreign citizens, ignore extradition rules, hide nuclear weapons, commit acts of terrorism themselves, murder without trial, board ships in international water, murder innocent people and murder children.

The Government of Israel's agenda is to hit their neighbors as hard as possible. It sickens me that people still regard the Israeli state as democratic, despite the despicable acts of terror they have committed over the last 40 years. They can't even play a game of football with any of their neighbors!

Yea, I know some will say this an over the top rant, but take a look at what the Israeli government have been involved in over the last 40 years and also, don't forget that no matter what they try to say, they were responsible for the deaths of over 300 hundred Palestinian children in 2008 and 2009. Don't be fooled by what you may hear about Mossad. They have as much blood on their hands as any terrorist group, much of it innocent blood. Take a look at the attack on the Sands Hotel in Beirut in 1973, codenamed Operation Spring of Youth. This attack, a revenge killing for the Munich attack in 1972, resulted in innocent bystanders being murdered in an attempt to carry out a killing of three Palestinian Liberation Organisation members. One of the Mossad agents in that attack was the future Prime Minister of Israel, Ehud Barak! Incredibly, some of these thugs were decorated afterwards. In spite of the fact that a considerable number of innocent people were killed. Also, in an act of revenge for the Munich attack, another innocent man, Ahmed Bouchiki, was murdered by Mossad after he was mistakenly identified as a Palestinian terrorist. He was shot in front of his pregnant wife while leaving a cinema in Lillyhammer, Norway. Six agents were arrested, but five received very short prison terms. Israel actually tried to pay off Bouchiki's wife, even though they never had the balls to admit they carried out the crime! Mossad's specialty is sneaking around the world committing acts of terror and assassinations in the name of the Israeli state and democracy. I'm not sure what type of democracy they have, but it's not my type. And you might say that all these acts could be called unfortunate, or even collateral damage, if you were that cynical, but I'd love to hear your view if it happened to one of your family members.

Events such as the above should warrant a tougher stance, but, alas, no nation has had the courage to stand up against them. Is it war guilt? I don't know, but I don't think anybody should use that as an excuse to allow the Israeli government to do what it likes. Millions of Jews were murdered in WWII, not Israelis, and despite those horrific acts of genocide, Israel should not be allowed to commit its own war crimes and get away with it 'because we owe them one'. Poland and Germany have a terrible history of conflict between them, yet today they are no longer enemies. Civilised behavior, unlike Israel. We never hear talk of peace and reconciliation from the Israeli government. It's all an eye for an eye: Old Testament talk. It doesn't matter that some of their targets are terrorists. There are other ways to bring somebody to justice. Other nations like Ireland abide by these ways, but it seems that Mossad and the government of Israel have no time for that. And I don't care if other nations are doing it, too. They claim to be a democratic state, but act like a rogue one.

Laws are laws and I'm quite sure that if the Irish government used fake Israeli passports to get into a country and assassinate somebody, even a terrorist, we would not be allowed to walk away with a slap on the wrist.

Murder is murder, no matter what God given right you think you have. I am not allowed to kill somebody in revenge, and neither should the Israeli government.

Guilty as charged.

When I read your user name it reminded me of http://www.cleanthenigerdelta.org/index.php/whowaskensarowiwa

we are just puppets.

KenSwee

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

When I read your user name it reminded me of http://www.cleanthenigerdelta.org/index.php/whowaskensarowiwa

Cool!

Gee Bag

losthorizon wrote: »

This month marks the 30th anniversary of the massacres at Sabra and Shatila.

I remember it being on the news pretty clearly, this makes me feel very old.

If you haven't seen it I highly recommend an Israeli animated film called Waltz with Bashir. Its very powerful stuff. As a matter of fact I'm gonna watch it right now.

El Siglo

Pregnant women will give birth to terrorists; the children when they grow up will be terrorists.

Phalangist involved in the Sabra and Chatila massacre, when questioned by an Israeli tank crew, west Beirut
17 September 1982


We know, it's not to our liking, and don't interfere.

Message from an Israeli army battalion commander to his men, on learning that Palestinians were being massacred
17 September 1982

This is an excerpt from the book Pity the Nation: Lebanon at War by Robert Fisk. I would highly recommend people to read it, absolutely powerful.

The Israeli army supported the Phalangists, they made sure west Beirut was disarmed and as many of the PLO were exiled. They even fired flares so the Phalangists could see in the dark. They knew exactly what would happen after the assassination of Bashir Gemayel, they knew exactly what was left in those camps, the oversaw the massacre from their observation post on-top of an apartment block. The Israelis aided the Phalangists in transporting Palestinians to the sports stadium where they were subsequently murdered.

It's disgusting how something like this was allowed to happen and still Sharon has never been held to account.

Seaneh

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

israel. a great bunch of lads

It was Lebanese.


The Isreali's did let them do it though.

Gee Bag

Seaneh wrote: »

It was Lebanese.

True, but the Isreali's were happy to leave them at it. They are just as guilt

El Siglo

castletownman wrote: »

Without diverting away from the tragedy, it some indictment of today's society that both Sabra and Shatila sound like some celebrity baby names.

It's not a fucking tragedy, it was a fucking massacre of innocent people.

How stupid of a post to make? Really? 1,700 people, mostly the elderly, women and children butchered and you think the camp names sound like celebrity baby names? Seriously, I know AH can be pretty retarded but this really takes the biscuit.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Seaneh wrote: »

It was Lebanese.


The Isreali's did let them do it though.

you can't give out about the americans by proxy by condemning the lebanese

wes

Seaneh wrote: »

It was Lebanese.


The Isreali's did let them do it though.

Bit more than that. They actively aided and abetted them in numerous ways, for example as mentioned earlier, they provided light, so that the murder could go on all night. There just as responsible as there Phalangist allies.

leincar

KenSwee wrote: »

No leader from Israel will ever answer in an international court of law. It's like the President of the USA or Prime Minister of Britain ending up in the dock.

Every year we hear about Israel and it's deference of it's citizens, always at a cost to innocent men, women and even children.
My rule is simple, maybe too simple for some, but I firmly believe when children are killed as a direct result of a conflict between two nations, then it has to stop.

Israel is a well funded, well supported state that has carte blanche when it comes to behaving like terrorists. They don't need to defend their actions, because, frankly, according to them, they are the race chosen by God and have every right to break international laws, use fake passports from other sovereign states, kidnap foreign citizens, ignore extradition rules, hide nuclear weapons, commit acts of terrorism themselves, murder without trial, board ships in international water, murder innocent people and murder children.

The Government of Israel's agenda is to hit their neighbors as hard as possible. It sickens me that people still regard the Israeli state as democratic, despite the despicable acts of terror they have committed over the last 40 years. They can't even play a game of football with any of their neighbors!

Yea, I know some will say this an over the top rant, but take a look at what the Israeli government have been involved in over the last 40 years and also, don't forget that no matter what they try to say, they were responsible for the deaths of over 300 hundred Palestinian children in 2008 and 2009. Don't be fooled by what you may hear about Mossad. They have as much blood on their hands as any terrorist group, much of it innocent blood. Take a look at the attack on the Sands Hotel in Beirut in 1973, codenamed Operation Spring of Youth. This attack, a revenge killing for the Munich attack in 1972, resulted in innocent bystanders being murdered in an attempt to carry out a killing of three Palestinian Liberation Organisation members. One of the Mossad agents in that attack was the future Prime Minister of Israel, Ehud Barak! Incredibly, some of these thugs were decorated afterwards. In spite of the fact that a considerable number of innocent people were killed. Also, in an act of revenge for the Munich attack, another innocent man, Ahmed Bouchiki, was murdered by Mossad after he was mistakenly identified as a Palestinian terrorist. He was shot in front of his pregnant wife while leaving a cinema in Lillyhammer, Norway. Six agents were arrested, but five received very short prison terms. Israel actually tried to pay off Bouchiki's wife, even though they never had the balls to admit they carried out the crime! Mossad's specialty is sneaking around the world committing acts of terror and assassinations in the name of the Israeli state and democracy. I'm not sure what type of democracy they have, but it's not my type. And you might say that all these acts could be called unfortunate, or even collateral damage, if you were that cynical, but I'd love to hear your view if it happened to one of your family members.

Events such as the above should warrant a tougher stance, but, alas, no nation has had the courage to stand up against them. Is it war guilt? I don't know, but I don't think anybody should use that as an excuse to allow the Israeli government to do what it likes. Millions of Jews were murdered in WWII, not Israelis, and despite those horrific acts of genocide, Israel should not be allowed to commit its own war crimes and get away with it 'because we owe them one'. Poland and Germany have a terrible history of conflict between them, yet today they are no longer enemies. Civilised behavior, unlike Israel. We never hear talk of peace and reconciliation from the Israeli government. It's all an eye for an eye: Old Testament talk. It doesn't matter that some of their targets are terrorists. There are other ways to bring somebody to justice. Other nations like Ireland abide by these ways, but it seems that Mossad and the government of Israel have no time for that. And I don't care if other nations are doing it, too. They claim to be a democratic state, but act like a rogue one.

Laws are laws and I'm quite sure that if the Irish government used fake Israeli passports to get into a country and assassinate somebody, even a terrorist, we would not be allowed to walk away with a slap on the wrist.

Murder is murder, no matter what God given right you think you have. I am not allowed to kill somebody in revenge, and neither should the Israeli government.

Guilty as charged.

I take it then by your own standards that you condemn and want to see international action over the Hama massacre of 20,000 in Hama, Syria that happened also in 1982 perpetrated by the Syrian government on its own citizens, or how about the massacre of Sikhs by Hindus in India a couple of years later.

Maybe the combined massacres commited in the former Yugoslavia by all sides between 1991-1995 or maybe just those committed by Serbia on Kosovo in 1999.

Then you might want to look at the genocide inflicted by the Indonesians on the East Timorese all the way up to 1998. Of cours you could go back a couple of years and wonder about the massacre of 800,000 Tutsi by Hutu's in Rwanda. No.

Okay what about the massacres by Russia in Chechnya between 1994-1996 and if thats not good enough they had another go in 1999.

What else, Oh yes, Sudan. Now theres a nasty little conflict that went beyond massacre all the way to genocide. No, you don't feel like condeming even that one.

Well there is still one really big series of massacres going on even as we speak. Okay I'll tell you. The Congo. A really dirty war going on with massacres and genocide and loads of things going on that would, should, must exercise your rightious anger.

Ohhh, I see no Jews/Israelies involved. That must really suck.

Heres the thing. Sharon was a boll0x. The bastard is in a coma and ain't coming out of it. Many Israeli's were sickened by what the IDF did during that time, for in truth turning the other eye can sometimes be worse than committing the actual act. ( which, lest you forget or didn't know was committed by Christian Phalangists) Its part of the reason myself and my wife moved from Israel as my other half was in the IDF in Lebanon at the time. We don't want our daughters par-taking in conscription.

All you Israel haters really don't get them and never will, but six million out of a then worldwide population of maybe seventeen million Jews were wiped out during the Holocaust. To put that in to a bit of perspective that would be the equivalent of two hundred and fifty million Catholics in the same time frame. They will never let that happen again. That is just not up for discussion or debate, and by all means fair or foul they will do their utmost to ensure this. They perceive themselves as a nation and a people under siege. While they have this attitude( whether right or wrong) they will always be ready to take up arms, especially if they think or feel there is a direct threat to the nation state.

They have a mindset that places them in the equivalent of the Bogside or West Belfast between 1968 to 1973. Some of the people from these areas still have that mindset.

Yamanoto

El Siglo wrote: »

It's not a fucking tragedy, it was a fucking massacre of innocent people.

How stupid of a post to make? Really? 1,700 people, mostly the elderly, women and children butchered and you think the camp names sound like celebrity baby names? Seriously, I know AH can be pretty retarded but this really takes the biscuit.

trag·e·dy Noun /ˈtrajidē/

tragedies plural

An event causing great suffering, destruction, and distress, such as a serious accident, crime, or natural catastrophe

That's a disproportionate response to what castletownman posted.

The massacre clearly resonates deeply with you but that doesn't merit excoriating someone for describing it as above.
As for Sabra and Shatila as celebrity baby names, folks have differing sensibilities and sensitivities.

wes

leincar wrote: »

I take it then by your own standards that you condemn and want to see international action over the Hama massacre of 20,000 in Hama, Syria that happened also in 1982 perpetrated by the Syrian government on its own citizens, or how about the massacre of Sikhs by Hindus in India a couple of years later.

Fantastic whataboutery list you came up with. The thread is about Sabra and Shatilla, and it was started due to the anniversary of the mass murder, and understandably people will, you know, discuss the topic of the thread.

It always an interesting defense, that is used, by screaming, well look at what all these other guys did.

leincar wrote: »

Heres the thing. Sharon was a boll0x. The bastard is in a coma and ain't coming out of it. Many Israeli's were sickened by what the IDF did during that time, for in truth turning the other eye can sometimes be worse than committing the actual act. ( which, lest you forget or didn't know was committed by Christian Phalangists)

No, they did more than turn a blind eye. They actively aided and abetted the mass murder. They helped light up the night sky so there allies could continue there murder, and they also prevented anyone from getting in or out to stop the massacre. So lets not minimize what the IDF did. There as much responsible as there allies.

Also, it should be noted that Sharon became Prime Minister long after the massacre, so I don't honestly believe to many Israeli's were all that bothered by the massacre, or maybe most don't even know about it, or are told a fairy tale version, where the IDF are absolved of all wrong doing. I really have no idea, but Sharon, some how became Prime Minister.

leincar wrote: »

All you Israel haters really don't get them and never will, but six million out of a then worldwide population of maybe seventeen million Jews were wiped out during the Holocaust.

Yes, and that crime was committed where? Oh wait, it was in Europe, and by the Nazi regime. So why should Palestinians pay for someone else crime?

Its amazing that you are using the Holocaust as an excuse for a pogrom against Palestinians. I fail to see what the **** the Holocaust has to do with Israeli allies, going into a camp and murdering unarmed, Men, Women and Children, all the while the IDF looked on, preventing anyone from getting in or out, and then enabling the murder to continue all night by providing light for there allies. I don't see how the Holocaust is relevant to that. All, I see is a sickening excuse for mass murder and nothing else.

Care to explain how these refugee's where going to engage in a new Holocaust against Israel exactly. What danger did these refugee's pose, exactly? Care to explain how anyone in there right mind would think that these refugee's were a danger to Israel? You brought up the Holocaust, so explain to me how any rational person could come to the conclusion that the safety of Israel would be helped by butchering Palestinian civilians?

KenSwee

leincar wrote: »

I take it then by your own standards that you condemn and want to see international action over the Hama massacre of 20,000 in Hama, Syria that happened also in 1982 perpetrated by the Syrian government on its own citizens, or how about the massacre of Sikhs by Hindus in India a couple of years later.

Maybe the combined massacres commited in the former Yugoslavia by all sides between 1991-1995 or maybe just those committed by Serbia on Kosovo in 1999.

Then you might want to look at the genocide inflicted by the Indonesians on the East Timorese all the way up to 1998. Of cours you could go back a couple of years and wonder about the massacre of 800,000 Tutsi by Hutu's in Rwanda. No.

Okay what about the massacres by Russia in Chechnya between 1994-1996 and if thats not good enough they had another go in 1999.

What else, Oh yes, Sudan. Now theres a nasty little conflict that went beyond massacre all the way to genocide. No, you don't feel like condeming even that one.

Well there is still one really big series of massacres going on even as we speak. Okay I'll tell you. The Congo. A really dirty war going on with massacres and genocide and loads of things going on that would, should, must exercise your rightious anger.

Ohhh, I see no Jews/Israelies involved. That must really suck.

Heres the thing. Sharon was a boll0x. The bastard is in a coma and ain't coming out of it. Many Israeli's were sickened by what the IDF did during that time, for in truth turning the other eye can sometimes be worse than committing the actual act. ( which, lest you forget or didn't know was committed by Christian Phalangists) Its part of the reason myself and my wife moved from Israel as my other half was in the IDF in Lebanon at the time. We don't want our daughters par-taking in conscription.

All you Israel haters really don't get them and never will, but six million out of a then worldwide population of maybe seventeen million Jews were wiped out during the Holocaust. To put that in to a bit of perspective that would be the equivalent of two hundred and fifty million Catholics in the same time frame. They will never let that happen again. That is just not up for discussion or debate, and by all means fair or foul they will do their utmost to ensure this. They perceive themselves as a nation and a people under siege. While they have this attitude( whether right or wrong) they will always be ready to take up arms, especially if they think or feel there is a direct threat to the nation state.

They have a mindset that places them in the equivalent of the Bogside or West Belfast between 1968 to 1973. Some of the people from these areas still have that mindset.

Yes of course, by my own standards, I condemn every one of the massacres you mentioned. Silly of you to assume that any normal person wouldn't. Most of what you mentioned was carried out by extremists or rouge governments. Is it now fair for me to put the Israeli government in the same category?

Also, don't you dare call me an Israeli hater. I categorically reject that accusation. That statement is one word away from Jew hater. Leave the word 'Jew' out. I have many Jewish and Israeli friends. Some agree with my opinions and some don't but all of them know I do not hate them. I don't hate anybody so keep that term to yourself. You know nothing about me so don't you dare accuse me of being a racist or anti-Semite. A term which is ridiculous given that Arabs are Semite people as well. My problem is with the Governments of Israel and it's secret service. The second world war was long enough ago for every nation to accept what happened and try to solve the differences. Something that Israel has not tried hard enough to do in my opinion. Everything goes back to the holocaust yet the problems of today are not rooted in that history anymore. My wife is Polish and she has enough holocaust history in her family to match any Jewish family yet she and her countrypeople have managed to resolve many differences.

Nobody has forgot that the massacre was carried out by 'Christians'. It's been mentioned plenty of times here. The IDF at the least, stood by. Again mentioned here. In fact, only after huge demonstrations by Israeli citizens, was their finally an investigation. So I'm quite sure I speak for the majority of posters here when I say that we do not hate Israeli or Jewish people.

Israeli people and it's culture has so much in common with their neighbors. Language, history, food, music are all so closely linked to their neighbors but as soon as you pull out the religion card, all hell breaks loose. It's pathetic and both sides are to blame. It only takes one action to set everybody on the road to resolution but I do not see that action on the side of Israel. The Israeli government are meant to be the democratic side that must be level headed and act with utmost responsibility. Yet, over the last 50 years, their actions show otherwise. The people of modern Israel made the decision to go to the middle east based upon a short sighted plan for a homeland which hadn't existed for over two thousand years and a hurriedly set up mandate that allowed Britain to wash it's hands of a bad situation. They now must face that decision with more maturity and not allow their Government to behave like the child who has been bullied so much that he becomes the bully. This position never has a a happy ending. Just ask Ahmed Bouchiki. Ohh you can't because he like many others, was murdered by the legitimate government of Israel in approved assassination.

You say they will never let anything bad happen to them again. But they are inviting it all at them by using a cloak of democracy to hide what is clearly rouge actions. You say it's not up for debate but I disagree. It absolutely is up for debate when innocent people are murdered and nobody is held responsible or worse, the actions continue. The country is not important enough to warrant mass murder. They are not that special. And don't assume that everybody will just allow it to happen. Show an equal amount of peace actions to their acts of war, terrorism, murder, hidden nuclear weapons and kidnapping and I will listen to you point of view. Until then, they are on their own, and clearly they prefer it that way.

Zebra3

leincar wrote: »

All you Israel haters really don't get them and never will

Blah, blah, blah.

Does that make you a German hater for mentioning the crimes they commited in the 1940s? :rolleyes:

leincar

Zebra3 wrote: »

Blah, blah, blah.

Does that make you a German hater for mentioning the crimes they commited in the 1940s? :rolleyes:

Nope, but my Mother and Father-in-law still do and make no apologies for it.

Cavehill Red

leincar wrote: »

They have a mindset that places them in the equivalent of the Bogside or West Belfast between 1968 to 1973. Some of the people from these areas still have that mindset.

I'm keen to know more about this mindset that you're referring to, just to ensure you're not actually talking out of your hoop and playing whataboutery with genocides in order to defend the indefensible Israeli actions at Sabra and Shatila.

leincar

KenSwee wrote: »

Yes of course, by my own standards, I condemn every one of the massacres you mentioned. Silly of you to assume that any normal person wouldn't. Most of what you mentioned was carried out by extremists or rouge governments. Is it now fair for me to put the Israeli government in the same category?

Also, don't you dare call me an Israeli hater. I categorically reject that accusation. That statement is one word away from Jew hater. Leave the word 'Jew' out. I have many Jewish and Israeli friends. Some agree with my opinions and some don't but all of them know I do not hate them. I don't hate anybody so keep that term to yourself. You know nothing about me so don't you dare accuse me of being a racist or anti-Semite. A term which is ridiculous given that Arabs are Semite people as well. My problem is with the Governments of Israel and it's secret service. The second world war was long enough ago for every nation to accept what happened and try to solve the differences. Something that Israel has not tried hard enough to do in my opinion. Everything goes back to the holocaust yet the problems of today are not rooted in that history anymore. My wife is Polish and she has enough holocaust history in her family to match any Jewish family yet she and her countrypeople have managed to resolve many differences.

Nobody has forgot that the massacre was carried out by 'Christians'. It's been mentioned plenty of times here. The IDF at the least, stood by. Again mentioned here. In fact, only after huge demonstrations by Israeli citizens, was their finally an investigation. So I'm quite sure I speak for the majority of posters here when I say that we do not hate Israeli or Jewish people.

Israeli people and it's culture has so much in common with their neighbors. Language, history, food, music are all so closely linked to their neighbors but as soon as you pull out the religion card, all hell breaks loose. It's pathetic and both sides are to blame. It only takes one action to set everybody on the road to resolution but I do not see that action on the side of Israel. The Israeli government are meant to be the democratic side that must be level headed and act with utmost responsibility. Yet, over the last 50 years, their actions show otherwise. The people of modern Israel made the decision to go to the middle east based upon a short sighted plan for a homeland which hadn't existed for over two thousand years and a hurriedly set up mandate that allowed Britain to wash it's hands of a bad situation. They now must face that decision with more maturity and not allow their Government to behave like the child who has been bullied so much that he becomes the bully. This position never has a a happy ending. Just ask Ahmed Bouchiki. Ohh you can't because he like many others, was murdered by the legitimate government of Israel in approved assassination.

You say they will never let anything bad happen to them again. But they are inviting it all at them by using a cloak of democracy to hide what is clearly rouge actions. You say it's not up for debate but I disagree. It absolutely is up for debate when innocent people are murdered and nobody is held responsible or worse, the actions continue. The country is not important enough to warrant mass murder. They are not that special. And don't assume that everybody will just allow it to happen. Show an equal amount of peace actions to their acts of war, terrorism, murder, hidden nuclear weapons and kidnapping and I will listen to you point of view. Until then, they are on their own, and clearly they prefer it that way.

The very fact that this thread was started in after hours and not in politics or even military will automatically mean it goes ballistic.

I take on board many of your points and as a non Jew, who has lived there would agree with many of them. The main point I'm trying to make and obviously very badly is ( and as you have Israeli friends you will know this) they have a different mindset to most people in the West. They will always say 'never again' because it has happened to them. People in general don't get that. I didn't get it until I met my wife and her family. They are reformist and liberal. We left Israel as we didn't want our kids in the IDF, also as we don't particularly like the way the 'Hawks' are in the ascendancy.

An Israeli person coming on this site or any countless other forums' for the first time will genuinely wonder why there is so much condemnation of Israel. They will wonder why there is little mention of condemnation of other brutal massacres. Its things like that, that help create and continue a siege mentality.

Without doubt Shatila and Sabra are terrible and ugly stains on Israel, as you say the truth began to emerge because of Israeli protests surrounding it.

As Wes in a previous post has stated the election of Ariel Sharon was disgusting as he has a lot of blood on his hands. Unfortunately there was risidual respect for him as he was seen as a hero following the Six Day war and the Yom Kippur war.

Israel feels isolated. Probably not surprising as they have alienated a lot of countries. They do feel that no-one will help if they need it. That is probably the first mindset that has to change before anything else will.

That and my jumping the gun on perceived anti-semitism. My apologies.

leincar

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I'm keen to know more about this mindset that you're referring to, just to ensure you're not actually talking out of your hoop and playing whataboutery with genocides in order to defend the indefensible Israeli actions at Sabra and Shatila.

Siege mentality. Plain and simple. In Northern Irelands case, perfectly real. In Israels case for a large proportion also real. It may in reality not be, but it is nevertheless a reality, especially for right wing Israeli's who in the main would be south of Tel-A-Viv and Jerusalem. I never defended Sabra and Shatila.

Cavehill Red

leincar wrote: »

Siege mentality. Plain and simple. In Northern Irelands case, perfectly real. In Israels case for a large proportion also real. It may in reality not be, but it is nevertheless a reality, especially for right wing Israeli's who in the main would be south of Tel-A-Viv and Jerusalem. I never defended Sabra and Shatila.

You sort of did, though. The 'no true Israeli' argument - it was Sharon, he was a bollox, it's not like Israel itself endorsed it, etc. Now, if I'm misrepresenting you, go ahead and clarify. But it seems to me that the opposition to Israeli militarism didn't even remotely arise within Israel until much later with the creation of organisations like B'Tselem.
As for siege mentalities, we could discuss that all day in any number of contexts, which again would achieve your aim of diluting the conversation about Sabra and Shatila. Suffice to say that the situations in NI and Israel/Palestine are not and never were cognate, despite the flags flying in parts of Belfast.

Edit: I've read your 9.20 post more thoroughly and accept much of that, with the following caveats - it was Robert Fisk and not internal Israeli dissent which highlighted the truth about Sabra and Shatila, and secondly it is the global perception, correct in my opinion, that Israel has made helots of the indigenous Palestinians whose land they took at gunpoint which isolates Israel. Nothing else.

conorhal

Boardsies should check out Ari Foleman's utterly amazing film 'Waltz with Bashir' about the incident. He was an Israeli soldier at the time of the war in Lebanon.

The film follows him speaking to former soldiers in the IDF as he tries to reconstruct what happened to him during the war once he realises from speaking to an old friend and ex-comrade that he has no memory of that period in his life at all.

The documentary is an animated film that plays out like bad nightmare or hallucination as he slowly recovers\reconstructs his memory of the events of that war,his growing suspicion that the blanks have something to do with Sabra and Shatila and his growing fear that somehow he was involved.

Check it out, a truely memorable and heart wrenching film:

Zebra3

leincar wrote: »

The very fact that this thread was started in after hours and not in politics or even military will automatically mean it goes ballistic.

I take on board many of your points and as a non Jew, who has lived there would agree with many of them. The main point I'm trying to make and obviously very badly is ( and as you have Israeli friends you will know this) they have a different mindset to most people in the West. They will always say 'never again' because it has happened to them. People in general don't get that. I didn't get it until I met my wife and her family. They are reformist and liberal. We left Israel as we didn't want our kids in the IDF, also as we don't particularly like the way the 'Hawks' are in the ascendancy.

An Israeli person coming on this site or any countless other forums' for the first time will genuinely wonder why there is so much condemnation of Israel. They will wonder why there is little mention of condemnation of other brutal massacres. Its things like that, that help create and continue a siege mentality.

Without doubt Shatila and Sabra are terrible and ugly stains on Israel, as you say the truth began to emerge because of Israeli protests surrounding it.

As Wes in a previous post has stated the election of Ariel Sharon was disgusting as he has a lot of blood on his hands. Unfortunately there was risidual respect for him as he was seen as a hero following the Six Day war and the Yom Kippur war.

Israel feels isolated. Probably not surprising as they have alienated a lot of countries. They do feel that no-one will help if they need it. That is probably the first mindset that has to change before anything else will.

That and my jumping the gun on perceived anti-semitism. My apologies.

The reason why Israel's crimes attracts so much attention on here is because their war crimes apologists and deniers defend them so much irregardless of the facts.

Nobody on here defends what has happened in Syria or the way Saudi society is structured and governed.

And of course Israel is going to feel isolated from its neighbours. A bunch of nutters from Europe started swamping Palestine with the intention of ethnicly cleansing the local population and stealing their land. This was done and neighbouring countries had to deal with the refugees who were refused the rightful return to their homes which is meant to be guaranteed under international law.

Who wants a neighbour like that who is also armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons?

leincar

Cavehill Red wrote: »

You sort of did, though. The 'no true Israeli' argument - it was Sharon, he was a bollox, it's not like Israel itself endorsed it, etc. Now, if I'm misrepresenting you, go ahead and clarify. But it seems to me that the opposition to Israeli militarism didn't even remotely arise within Israel until much later with the creation of organisations like B'Tselem.
As for siege mentalities, we could discuss that all day in any number of contexts, which again would achieve your aim of diluting the conversation about Sabra and Shatila. Suffice to say that the situations in NI and Israel/Palestine are not and never were cognate, despite the flags flying in parts of Belfast.

Edit: I've read your 9.20 post more thoroughly and accept much of that, with the following caveats - it was Robert Fisk and not internal Israeli dissent which highlighted the truth about Sabra and Shatila, and secondly it is the global perception, correct in my opinion, that Israel has made helots of the indigenous Palestinians whose land they took at gunpoint which isolates Israel. Nothing else.

Thanks for that. I would just say that the first major Israeli dissent took place on September 25th when around 300,000 marched. This led to the setting up of the Kahan Commission. (which in itself was a bit of a whitewash)

El Siglo

Yamanoto wrote: »

trag·e·dy Noun /ˈtrajidē/

tragedies plural

An event causing great suffering, destruction, and distress, such as a serious accident, crime, or natural catastrophe

One of the problems with using the word tragedy is that it implies that no one was at fault. It's the same thing said about the IDF shelling of the UN barracks in Qana in 1996, with Israel’s ambassador to the United Nations Dan Gillerman referring to the attack on a group of unarmed refugees as a "horrible, tragic incident," it never implies that Israel or anyone for that matter is responsible, save for the people who were shelled as they hosted 'terrorists'. Even in the Kahan Commission, set up by the Israeli government to investigate the Sabra and Chatila massacres, the text of the document refers only to the "the events in the refugee camps," and not quanlifying these "events" as they really stand: massacres committed by Israels Christian Phalangist allies. The next time you read about Palestinians or any civilians for that matter in the middle east killed by the Israelis or coalition forces, pay close attention to the language and words certain media outlets will choose to refer to such incidents (always designed to sanitise and remove blame).

That's a disproportionate response to what castletownman posted.

I don't think so, I think it's very proportionate. Or is it just because it's AH we're not meant to take things so seriously except when it's an attack on social welfare and the public sector?

The massacre clearly resonates deeply with you but that doesn't merit excoriating someone for describing it as above.
As for Sabra and Shatila as celebrity baby names, folks have differing sensibilities and sensitivities.

Well when you describe a massacre so flippantly it will warrant no less criticism than if the same had been said about other massacres. It resonates with me as the war in Lebanon was essentially Menachem Begin's 'PLO terrorist' fantasy that led to thousands of civilian deaths (sounds familiar though, doesn't it?).

And in fairness, would you be as daring as to say something in that line to a survivor, that Sabra and Chatila sound like celebrity baby names? Different sensibilities and sensitivities? That's just ridiculous, not even a viable reason for an excuse. If a person didn't know the gravity of such events then the onus is on them to look up the information, read about it, then comment.

Slurryface

30 year old story about Christians killing Palistinians, posted by anti-Israelis.
It was 30 years ago ffs, move on, build a bridge, get over it!

Zebra3

Slurryface wrote: »

30 year old story about Christians killing Palistinians, posted by anti-Israelis.
It was 30 years ago ffs, move on, build a bridge, get over it!

Do you feel the same about those who committed war crimes during WWII?

Slurryface

Zebra3 wrote: »

Do you feel the same about those who committed war crimes during WWII?

I think you will find that those who committed war crimes that long ago are now dead.
Like I said, move along folks, nothing to see here.

El Siglo

Slurryface wrote: »

I think you will find that those who committed war crimes that long ago are now dead.
Like I said, move along folks, nothing to see here.

So what's the wifi like then under that aul bridge?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTSA_sWGM44

Gee Bag

Slurryface wrote: »

30 year old story about Christians killing Palistinians, posted by anti-Israelis.
It was 30 years ago ffs, move on, build a bridge, get over it!

Slurryface wrote: »

I think you will find that those who committed war crimes that long ago are now dead.
Like I said, move along folks, nothing to see here.

Its not being anti-Israeli to discuss the massacre of thousands of civilians in which they were complicit

This website is for disccussion. If you don't think want to do that then I politley suggest that you fvck off.

Slurryface

El Siglo wrote: »

So what's the wifi like then under that aul bridge?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTSA_sWGM44

Unlike you I dont consider everyone who disagrees with me to be a Troll.

humanji

El Siglo wrote: »

I don't think so, I think it's very proportionate. Or is it just because it's AH we're not meant to take things so seriously except when it's an attack on social welfare and the public sector?

Castletownman made an incredibly relevant point in this thread and you completely missed it.

Try and realise that the majority of people on this planet will have never heard of Sabra or Shatila. Most people clicking on this thread would not have known what it was about. To many they really do sound like names given to kids by the xfactor generation. This is a pretty important point to make that these events and many more like them around the world, mean nothing to most people.

Zebra3

Slurryface wrote: »

I think you will find that those who committed war crimes that long ago are now dead.
Like I said, move along folks, nothing to see here.

Poor trolling

El Siglo

humanji wrote: »

Castletownman made an incredibly relevant point in this thread and you completely missed it.

Try and realise that the majority of people on this planet will have never heard of Sabra or Shatila. Most people clicking on this thread would not have known what it was about. To many they really do sound like names given to kids by the xfactor generation. This is a pretty important point to make that these events and many more like them around the world, mean nothing to most people.

So it's an important point to be made that people don't use their initiative and google search something like "Sabra and Chatila massacre"? The Lebanese civil war went on for about 15 years with about 100,000 people dead, that's a pretty big war even if it did finish up just over 20 years ago. Sabra and Chatila was probably the worst single massacre to have taken place throughout the war. Of course, if it's not the x-factor or some other useless shite on television, it's not worth learning about. You see this is the exact kind of intransigence that leads to trouble down the line.

bluecode

Yet another anti Israeli thread, Who'd have thought it?:rolleyes:

Considering the sheer scale of wars and atrocities committed throughout history and the world by all sorts of peoples. You have to wonder why only the Israelis seem to feature in forums like this?

It's not anti semitism of course. No that could never be.

Some people it seems will never be happy until all the Jews are wiped off the face of the Earth.

Some things never change.

humanji

El Siglo wrote: »

So it's an important point to be made that people don't use their initiative and google search something like "Sabra and Chatila massacre"? The Lebanese civil war went on for about 15 years with about 100,000 people dead, that's a pretty big war even if it did finish up just over 20 years ago. Sabra and Chatila was probably the worst single massacre to have taken place throughout the war. Of course, if it's not the x-factor or some other useless shite on television, it's not worth learning about. You see this is the exact kind of intransigence that leads to trouble down the line.

Which is the exact point Castletownman made.

Gee Bag

bluecode wrote: »

Yet another anti Israeli thread, Who'd have thought it?:rolleyes:

Considering the sheer scale of wars and atrocities committed throughout history and the world by all sorts of peoples. You have to wonder why only the Israelis seem to feature in forums like this?

Typical "why are ye picking on poor Israel?" response.

Flipside of that coin is........ Why can't the Israeli military killing civilians ever be discussed without somebody popping up to say its anti-semetic.

Some people it seems will never be happy until all the Jews are wiped off the face of the Earth.

Yep your right, this website is really Stormfront in disguise.

Zebra3

bluecode wrote: »

Yet another anti Israeli thread, Who'd have thought it?:rolleyes:

Considering the sheer scale of wars and atrocities committed throughout history and the world by all sorts of peoples. You have to wonder why only the Israelis seem to feature in forums like this?

It's not anti semitism of course. No that could never be.

Some people it seems will never be happy until all the Jews are wiped off the face of the Earth.

Some things never change.

Ah, criticism of Israel=you are blood thristy genocidal maniac.

We've had your sort in here trying to derail threads exposing Israel's war crimes, hard luck though.

wes

bluecode wrote: »

Yet another anti Israeli thread, Who'd have thought it?:rolleyes:

Yet again, someone making excuses for Israels crimes, by trying to shut down any discussion about it.

bluecode wrote: »

Considering the sheer scale of wars and atrocities committed throughout history and the world by all sorts of peoples. You have to wonder why only the Israelis seem to feature in forums like this?

What your saying is untrue. Plenty of stuff discussing in AH, but then making crap up tends to be the only way to defend the indefensible.

bluecode wrote: »

It's not anti semitism of course. No that could never be.

Ah, the old Anti-semitism accusation, to defend mass murder that was aided and abetted by Israel.

I think it more than fair to question the motives of those making excuses for this massacre (via trying to shut down discussion, and various lies and smears), and I have to wonder if, it has to do with racial hatred towards Palestinians.

Also, as pointed out already, the discussion was brought up due to the recent anniversary of the massacre (the 30th I believe). You see when such anniversary's of massacres like this, people tend to bring them up.

bluecode wrote: »

Some people it seems will never be happy until all the Jews are wiped off the face of the Earth.

Seems to me that lives of Palestinian have 0 value to you, and that even discussing what happened to them, is some how the same as wanting to kill all Jews. How you came to such a conclusion is beyond me, as no one has called for the death of all Jews on this thread.

All, I see is hatred of Palestinians, as evidenced by the clear lack of value there lives have to some people, who refuse to condemn Sabra and Shatila, and who make every excuse under the sun instead, so as to try and stop others from daring to discuss it, and every nasty lie and smear will be employed to do so.

bluecode wrote: »

Some things never change.

If you mean by that, defending Israeli crimes and that of there allies, by screaming Anti-semite, and general whataboutery, all the while refusing to condemn crimes commited against Palestinians, then your right.

Yamanoto

El Siglo wrote: »

One of the problems with using the word tragedy is that it implies that no one was at fault.

A more pertinent problem being some fail to fully comprehend its meaning, yourself included - read the OED definition.

trag·e·dy Noun /ˈtrajidē/

tragedies plural

An event causing great suffering, destruction, and distress, such as a serious accident, crime, or natural catastrophe

El Siglo wrote: »

I don't think so, I think it's very proportionate. Or is it just because it's AH we're not meant to take things so seriously except when it's an attack on social welfare and the public sector?

May also be folks are unaware of the event or however ghastly a prospect this may seem to you, are simply not exercised by it. It happens.

El Siglo wrote: »

And in fairness, would you be as daring as to say something in that line to a survivor, that Sabra and Chatila sound like celebrity baby names?

Are we to word every post on the basis of how we'd typically interact in a social situation?

If that were the case, I doubt you'd have pontificated in quite such an irate manner toward a complete stranger.

Transition year line of argument imo.

El Siglo wrote: »

If a person didn't know the gravity of such events then the onus is on them to look up the information, read about it, then comment.

This thread is open to those with a passing interest, a casual curiosity or those of a 'meh' persuasion.

You cannot lock it down, demand solemnity and pounce on those who feel differently to you.

Slurryface

It wasn't Israelis who carried out this alleged crime. It was Christians, Lebanese.
But dont let that stop you from using the alleged actions of Lebanese Christians to attack Israel.

wes

Slurryface wrote: »

It wasn't Israelis who carried out this alleged crime. It was Christians, Lebanese.
But dont let that stop you from using the alleged actions of Lebanese Christians to attack Israel.

The Israelis aided and abetted the crime, they surrounded the camp, only allowing there allies in, and not letting anyone escape, and they also provided light so that the murder could go on all night long. There as much responsible as there allies were. They knew exactly what was going on, so they can't even pretend that they taught that there allies were actually looking for terrorists. Far to many people have tried to absolve Israel of there part in the crime, imho.

My name is URL

Slurryface wrote: »

It wasn't Israelis who carried out this alleged crime. It was Christians, Lebanese.
But dont let that stop you from using the alleged actions of Lebanese Christians to attack Israel.

They willfully allowed it to happen and even facilitated it.

You're right when you say that some things never change btw. There was a Panorama documentary on BBC last week, and it showed footage of extremist Israeli civilians firing into a crowd of young Palestinians while the Israeli military looked on and provided them with cover.