Court cases from the 1920s?

RGM

I have 1921-1922 prison records of a Neil Murray from Creenary, Donegal who was charged with murder. It appears he was being held for trial, rather than serving a sentence. His age is given as 60 and his wife was Mary.

My great-great-grandfather had a brother Neil from Creenary. All I know for sure at this point is that he had a daughter Rose and he supposedly lived in Creenary his whole life.

There is only one Neil/Neal Murray in Creenary in the censuses. He had a wife Mary (McGinley) and several children, including a Rose.

I'm thinking the prisoner, my grandfather's brother, and the Neal Murray in the censuses are all likely the same person. So I'd like to find out about this murder case. I don't have any experience with Irish court cases. What should I do next?

RGM

Ok, a follow-up. I found a couple newspaper clippings.

- On Dec. 28, 1921, Neil Murray was charged with shooting Daniel Carr and sent to Sligo Jail.
- In October 1923, the case was moved to Dublin. Almost two years in prison without a trial, wow.

pinkypinky

National Archives should have the court records. Their online catalogue is a bit challenging to use so I find it's easier to go in there.

RGM

pinkypinky wrote: »

National Archives should have the court records. Their online catalogue is a bit challenging to use so I find it's easier to go in there.

Going in person isn't an option for the foreseeable future, but maybe on my next trip.

rhapsody

This is funny, I have an ancestor who killed someone in Jan 1922 and went to trial in Dublin in December 1923- so almost a two year wait for trial too. Do you know what happened to Neil after the trial? I haven't gotten the court records for my person yet, but found loads of detail in my local newspapers- though not in the Dublin ones so far.

pinkypinky- have you gotten court records at the NA, would it just be a case of going to the main desk with the date of the case & what court, and they'd point me towards an index book/ microfilm number? I find their online catalogue very frustrating!

RGM

rhapsody wrote: »

This is funny, I have an ancestor who killed someone in Jan 1922 and went to trial in Dublin in December 1923- so almost a two year wait for trial too. Do you know what happened to Neil after the trial? I haven't gotten the court records for my person yet, but found loads of detail in my local newspapers- though not in the Dublin ones so far.

No, nothing yet. There were a couple mentions in The Irish Times when the incident occurred and when the venue of the trial was changed, but I didn't find anything after that. Tried various name and place variations, etc., but nothing.

It figures that the available prison registers would end right at the time when I'd need them!

I'd be surprised if it ended up he was guilty, because while I know families like to keep the wraps on things like that, you'd think something like a murder in the 1920s would still leak out. I have an audio recording from the 1980s of my great-grandmother being quizzed by her family about her family. Neil, her uncle, was mentioned only in passing as "Rosie's father."

But you never know.

Reminds me, one of the craziest things I've uncovered to this point is that my great-grandfather was fined £57 in 1934 for "striking [his neighbor] with a hatchet."

rhapsody

I wouldn't bank on him not being guilty by your reasoning- I didn't know about my guy until recently. My older relatives didn't want anyone else knowing about it, though it's from before they were born. All I needed was a name and date & I got enough details online to know where to go for more. All the family except myself & another are clueless on this and at this stage I think I know more than the oldest members, since they would have only heard whisperings about it from their parents, whereas I've got newspaper reports, death certs etc.

Did you look at getting Neil's death cert? That can give you a good idea of what happened to him i.e. was it in the prison or at home etc.

That's strange about the newspapers, there were a few long articles in two local papers when my guy was up for trial. It's closer to Dublin than Sligo is, but still big news at home I would have thought.

Interesting info on your g.grandfather!

pinkypinky

They'll point you at the finding aids and you'll have to do the hard work yourself. Once you identify the right records, they'll bring them to you. I'm pretty sure they're not on open access. In fact, they might even be stored in the Four Courts - in which case they can bring them to you from there. Make sure to check the list of things that are currently unavailable (due to storage issues)

http://www.nationalarchives.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Index-to-archives-closed-September-2012.pdf

rhapsody

Thanks for that PP, my case was in Green St. courthouse, which I understand was the Dublin Special Criminal Court so I think I'm ok.
RGM- if you can give me details of your case I'll look it up when I'm in the Nat. Archves, that wont be for about a month though.

RGM

rhapsody wrote: »

Did you look at getting Neil's death cert? That can give you a good idea of what happened to him i.e. was it in the prison or at home etc.

I haven't gone after his death cert yet, and to be honest his records aren't a priority when it comes to anything involving money (direct ancestors taking precedence). That said, there is one listing in the index that jumps out as likely being him at his home, and none that would appear to be him in prison.

rhapsody wrote: »

RGM- if you can give me details of your case I'll look it up when I'm in the Nat. Archves, that wont be for about a month though.

Well, I don't have much else than is in this thread. Neil Murray of Creenary, near Creeslough, Donegal. His age was given as 30 in 1901, 50 in 1911 and 60 in the 1921-1922 prison records. In December of 1921, he was charged with the murder of Daniel Carr. His occupation was water bailiff and farmer. He was in Sligo Jail, then transferred to Mountjoy on October 27, 1923.

Hold the phone! I guess I didn't read everything in the prison record all the way through. October 29, 1923: "nolli prosequi"

Internet: "'Nolle prosqui' is a Latin legal phrase meaning 'be unwilling to pursue,' a phrase amounting to 'do not prosecute.' It is a phrase used in many common law criminal prosecution contexts to describe a prosecutor's decision to voluntarily discontinue criminal charges either before trial or before a verdict is rendered."

And there you have it.

I'd still like to know the story though. I wonder if the case was dropped because there was no proof Murray did it, or because the shooting was deemed justified?

pedroeibar1

rhapsody wrote: »

Thanks for that PP, my case was in Green St. courthouse, which I understand was the Dublin Special Criminal Court

It is probably best known for that, but it also was used as a District Court and handled all sorts of cases.

rhapsody

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

It is probably best known for that, but it also was used as a District Court and handled all sorts of cases.

Thanks for that, I think the District Court records are not accessible at the moment so I might postpone my visit to the Nat. Archives for a while. I had wondered why it would be in the Special Criminal Court, District Court makes more sense.