Any protestants in NI that feel Irish?

jellybeans

marienbad wrote: »

So just to clarify- can you define what ''all it is to be Irish ''

now this is only my definition and I am aware we are all different so don't be offended by this. What I mean by ''all it is to be Irish'' is to embrace Irish culture, the language, you know to be proud of being Irish and feel patriotic towards the place and it's people. To cheer for Irish teams and feel proud of Irish wins. To feel a connection with the land, to feel a sense of pride in who we are and where we have come from. I feel I am all those things, I would never judge anyone for shopping up the north but I feel a sense of loyalty towards this place and wouldn't do so myself as I believe we need the cash at the moment so best to support shop owners here. I had a flat mate who wen't up the north every weekend to do his shopping and although I wouldn't judge him I myself would feel guilty for doing that. I am also a public sector worker and have an awareness of the difficult situation the country is in so have voted against strike action as an act of patriotism, I am aware I will be attacked for this but I think at this time we need to support each other pull together. I am starting to become aware of the fact that I may be more of a nationalist then i ever imagined. I thought everyone felt the same as me but I can see there are different understandings of what it is to be Irish. Also want to make it clear that I embrace the diversity and am happy to hear that there are unionists who class themselves as Irish, I was only just confused and surprised thats all.

marienbad

jellybeans wrote: »

now this is only my definition and I am aware we are all different so don't be offended by this. What I mean by ''all it is to be Irish'' is to embrace Irish culture, the language, you know to be proud of being Irish and feel patriotic towards the place and it's people. To cheer for Irish teams and feel proud of Irish wins. To feel a connection with the land, to feel a sense of pride in who we are and where we have come from. I feel I am all those things, I would never judge anyone for shopping up the north but I feel a sense of loyalty towards this place and wouldn't do so myself as I believe we need the cash at the moment so best to support shop owners here. I had a flat mate who wen't up the north every weekend to do his shopping and although I wouldn't judge him I myself would feel guilty for doing that. I am also a public sector worker and have an awareness of the difficult situation the country is in so have voted against strike action as an act of patriotism, I am aware I will be attacked for this but I think at this time we need to support each other pull together. I am starting to become aware of the fact that I may be more of a nationalist then i ever imagined. I thought everyone felt the same as me but I can see there are different understandings of what it is to be Irish. Also want to make it clear that I embrace the diversity and am happy to hear that there are unionists who class themselves as Irish, I was only just confused and surprised thats all.

Do you speak Irish ?

jellybeans

marienbad wrote: »

Do you speak Irish ?

I do but to be honest I don't rate that as a measure of my national pride. Listen it's not a competition of who is more Irish, there are far more devoted patriots than I!! I'm merely describing what it means for me to be Irish. I welcome there are different variations of it, I'm interested though in understanding what it means to a person who doesn't have Irish heritage and who pledges allegiance to the Queen of England. I'm gdnuinley curious how national pride fits into that equation. I also want to reaffirm this is not to judge but more to understand.

Crooked Jack

jellybeans wrote: »

I would never judge anyone for shopping up the north but I feel a sense of loyalty towards this place and wouldn't do so myself as I believe we need the cash at the moment so best to support shop owners here. I had a flat mate who wen't up the north every weekend to do his shopping and although I wouldn't judge him I myself would feel guilty for doing that.

sounds more like youre proud to be a free stater rather than proud to be Irish

jellybeans

Crooked Jack wrote: »

sounds more like youre proud to be a free stater rather than proud to be Irish

Is that term a little antiquated though

marienbad

Crooked Jack wrote: »

sounds more like youre proud to be a free stater rather than proud to be Irish

It is comments like that that remind me never to get involved in these threads

losthorizon

Heroditas wrote: »

I know plenty of Northerners who are Protestants but feel very much "Irish".
They just don't want to be part of a country run from Dublin.

I'm from Cork - I don't want to be run from Dublin either.

Stinicker wrote: »

They are Irish whether they like it or not and they cannot escape this as they live in Ireland. Northern Ireland is an artificial commodity created by the partition of the island. It is a political oddity.

Every nation is an artificial commodity.

Loafs of posters are claiming that they know NI Protestants who feel Irish which I can believe. I even believe there maybe a very small minority that favour a united Ireland but I doubt that there as many Republican Protestants knocking around as some posters believe if any.

maninasia

davet82 wrote: »

i cant really blame them for that bit, think half the country feels like that at them moment!

Yeah but would you want to be run from Belfast. Be thankful on that score.

DaithiOGormain

losthorizon wrote: »

I'm from Cork - I don't want to be run from Dublin either.




Every nation is an artificial commodity.

Loafs of posters are claiming that they know NI Protestants who feel Irish which I can believe. I even believe there maybe a very small minority that favour a united Ireland but I doubt that there as many Republican Protestants knocking around as some posters believe if any.

You question whether or not there are any Republican Prods in the north at all. Well I'm still officially a Prod, I live in County Antrim and I'm most definitely a Republican. I know other Protestants who are Republicans, so there are a few out there.

awec

losthorizon wrote: »

I doubt that there as many Republican Protestants knocking around as some posters believe if any.

There isn't.

jellybeans

DaithiOGormain wrote: »

You question whether or not there are any Republican Prods in the north at all. Well I'm still officially a Prod, I live in County Antrim and I'm most definitely a Republican. I know other Protestants who are Republicans, so there are a few out there.

Do u mind me asking what your heritage is? Out of curiosity like. I'd be curious as to whether nationalism is heritage dependant in the case of Protestant nationalists

jellybeans

awec wrote: »

There isn't.

I suspected as much no doubt there are a few as indeed there are a few homophobic homosexuals or racist blacks etc Lol

RADIUS

Stinicker wrote: »

They are Irish whether they like it or not and they cannot escape this as they live in Ireland. Northern Ireland is an artificial commodity created by the partition of the island. It is a political oddity.

Partition? is it more of an oddity then the dozens of 'Kingdoms' that were here before?

There has never been a united Ireland except under UK rule.

jellybeans

RADIUS wrote: »

Partition? is it more of an oddity then the dozens of 'Kingdoms' that were here before?

There has never been a united Ireland except under UK rule.

Not true

RADIUS

jellybeans wrote: »

Not true

It is actually. The closest Ireland ever came to being united other than as part of the British empire was during the time of Brian Boru.The northern and southern branch of the Uí Néil dynasty never united. Ireland has always been fractured politically except under British administration.

jellybeans

RADIUS wrote: »

It is actually. The closest Ireland ever came to being united other than as part of the British empire was during the time of Brian Boru.The northern and southern branch of the Uí Néil dynasty never united. Ireland has always been fractured politically except under British administration.

I was going to say under Brian Boru

RADIUS

jellybeans wrote: »

I was going to say under Brian Boru

Great lad and all, but he still failed to unite Ireland.

Jimoslimos

RADIUS wrote: »

It is actually. The closest Ireland ever came to being united other than as part of the British empire was during the time of Brian Boru.The northern and southern branch of the Uí Néil dynasty never united. Ireland has always been fractured politically except under British administration.

The same British administration that itself was fractured politically up until the Acts of Union.

jellybeans

Jimoslimos wrote: »

The same British administration that itself was fractured politically up until the Acts of Union.

Agreed Europe was a tribal battlefield!

Nodin

awec wrote: »

There isn't.

There is. I will, however, pass on to other parties the fact that - contrary to what I or they may think - they don't exist. This may cause them to dissappear. Results will be posted.

jellybeans

Nodin wrote: »

There is. I will, however, pass on to other parties the fact that - contrary to what I or they may think - they don't exist. This may cause them to dissappear. Results will be posted.

Few and far between

RADIUS

Jimoslimos wrote: »

The same British administration that itself was fractured politically up until the Acts of Union.

Yes. Good man, you have successfully identified the British.

My point still stands.

jellybeans

RADIUS wrote: »

Yes. Good man, you have successfully identified the British.

My point still stands.

I think the point was that although Ireland was fractured so to was Britain and modern day Germany etc

RADIUS

jellybeans wrote: »

I think the point was that although Ireland was fractured so to was Britain and modern day Germany etc

Yes politics by it's nature is fractured. But Ireland on a whole was never under a single authoritative government except under a British one.

I am not stating this from any idealistic perspective, I am merely pointing out a truth. From the perspective of historical reality.

There never was a single united Irish state covering this entire island with a single national identity recognized at home or internationally. Except for the period when it was united under British rule.

I suppose it's ironic that the great enemy of the Irish nationalist, the British crown, has achieved the one thing that Irish nationalists yearn for and indeed define their ideology by. Something which they themselves have never achieved.

R0ot

Yes because religion defines citizenship.

maninasia

Irishness is a fluid concept and it means different things to different people. Let's embrace it, love it and live it together. :pac: We are but a speck in the ocean of humanity, and we should love all our parts.

(spoken by an Irishman many thousands of miles from the fair isle he was born on).

Gin77

Parnell and Wolftone were prodestants!
You can't define people by their religon. I myself don't have any religon and I consider myself Irish

Gin77

maninasia wrote: »

Irishness is a fluid concept and it means different things to different people. Let's embrace it, love it and live it together. :pac: We are but a speck in the ocean of humanity, and we should love all our parts.

(spoken by an Irishman many thousands of miles from the fair isle he was born on).

Its a bit like a large family, were always feckin fighting!! Got to love it tho.

Jimoslimos

Going to put forward a crazy hypothesis, slightly OT.

Imagine back when the various Acts of Union were being implemented (which in all reality were just a way for the English crown to try legitimise their claims over Scottish and Irish lands), that the capital for parliament was moved to a more central location, say Manchester, Liverpool, York even. I reckon Irish and Scottish independence movements would have waned.

London would remain the great city it was and still continue to be.

A centralised capital would have given greater presence across the entire UK, closer to the North of England, Scotland and Ireland. Instead it remained an English, and more specifically a Southern Home Counties dominated UK.

Despite what Fred will no doubt interject about Scottish MPs voting on English matters, the complete opposite has been the case for most of the UKs history.

awec

Nodin wrote: »

There is. I will, however, pass on to other parties the fact that - contrary to what I or they may think - they don't exist. This may cause them to dissappear. Results will be posted.

I am not saying there are none. There are however very few. And I mean very few.

Anyway, back to the OPs question. Yes, there are loads / many / tonnes of protestants in NI who are Irish. Big deal, this doesn't make them anti-union or pro-UI. It is a mistake to equate feeling irish to being a nationalist.

DaithiOGormain

jellybeans wrote: »

Do u mind me asking what your heritage is? Out of curiosity like. I'd be curious as to whether nationalism is heritage dependant in the case of Protestant nationalists

Well out of my eight great grandparents, six of them were of native Irish heritage, one was Ulster-Scots and one was of English heritage. And funnily enough the only Catholic one was the English one (converted to my heretic religion before marriage though).

Crooked Jack

jellybeans wrote: »

Is that term a little antiquated though

i had hoped so but obviously not as it seems to fit your post perfectly. out of interest, where do you do your shopping anyway. small independent shops i trust, what with you being so patriotic and all, because a tenner given to tesco in dublin and tesco in newry goes to the same place.

Crooked Jack

marienbad wrote: »

It is comments like that that remind me never to get involved in these threads

why? it perfectly described what he was saying.

marienbad

Crooked Jack wrote: »

why? it perfectly described what he was saying.

How so ? To me it just shows you are living in the past.

Crooked Jack

marienbad wrote: »

How so ? To me it just shows you are living in the past.

on the contrary, im looking forward to a future where people cut this rubbish out. his "patriotism" stops at culloville or beleek or belcoo. whatever hes proud of being, its not irish.

marienbad

Crooked Jack wrote: »

on the contrary, im looking forward to a future where people cut this rubbish out. his "patriotism" stops at culloville or beleek or belcoo. whatever hes proud of being, its not irish.

And who are you to define what is rubbish , what is patriotism and who is Irish ?

Crooked Jack

marienbad wrote: »

And who are you to define what is rubbish , what is patriotism and who is Irish ?

what a daft question. i never said anything about his irishness or his patriotism. indeed it was him who insinuated that because i live a mile north of louth im not irish. what i said was that if his pride only extends to 3/4 of the nation then he's not actually proud of being irish and all that that holds, he's proud of a certain aspect of irishness and a certain part of ireland. the term free stater summed up his attitude perfectly

marienbad

Crooked Jack wrote: »

what a daft question. i never said anything about his irishness or his patriotism. indeed it was him who insinuated that because i live a mile north of louth im not irish. what i said was that if his pride only extends to 3/4 of the nation then he's not actually proud of being irish and all that that holds, he's proud of a certain aspect of irishness and a certain part of ireland. the term free stater summed up his attitude perfectly

Yes you did, and if you can't understand your post then their is little help I can offer you.

jellybeans

Crooked Jack wrote: »

what a daft question. i never said anything about his irishness or his patriotism. indeed it was him who insinuated that because i live a mile north of louth im not irish. what i said was that if his pride only extends to 3/4 of the nation then he's not actually proud of being irish and all that that holds, he's proud of a certain aspect of irishness and a certain part of ireland. the term free stater summed up his attitude perfectly

If you are referring to me then he is a she and nobody is saying you aren't Irish because you live a mile north of Louth. I was confused at unionists who are loyal to the queen referring to themselves as Irish as I always thought they considered themselves in the whole to be British (a la reverend Ian paisley) I think northern Irish people are often more connected to their heritage and identity than many southern Irish

Crooked Jack

jellybeans wrote: »

If you are referring to me then he is a she and nobody us saying you aren't Irish because you live a mile north if Louth. I was confused at unionists who are loyal to the queen referring to themselves as Irish as I always thought they considered themselves in the whole as British (a la reverend Ian paisley) I think northern Irish people are often more connected to their heritage and identity than many southern Irish

i was referring specifically to your shopping comment. and apologies on getting your genitals wrong, i always just assume most people on this thing are fellas

Terrontress

jellybeans wrote: »

If you are referring to me then he is a she and nobody us saying you aren't Irish because you live a mile north if Louth. I was confused at unionists who are loyal to the queen referring to themselves as Irish as I always thought they considered themselves in the whole as British (a la reverend Ian paisley) I think northern Irish people are often more connected to their heritage and identity than many southern Irish

What about the Irish Guards, Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland or the Irish Football Association?

It's unfortunate that the government of the 26 counties decided to call itself Ireland when it did not occupy the whole of Ireland, leading to these issues.

No one group of people on the island has exclusive rights to the terms Ireland or Irish and most Northerners who are pro union see Northern Irish identity as a subset of Irish identity.

jellybeans

Terrontress wrote: »

What about the Irish Guards, Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland or the Irish Football Association?

It's unfortunate that the government of the 26 counties decided to call itself Ireland when it did not occupy the whole of Ireland, leading to these issues.

No one group of people on the island has exclusive rights to the terms Ireland or Irish and most Northerners who are pro union see Northern Irish identity as a subset of Irish identity.

Is it really most of them though???? The discussion hasn't ever been about whether one group was more entitled to being called Irish its about whether that group actually wishes to be seen as Irish and how that idea fits into national pride when you reject that nation

awec

DaithiOGormain wrote: »

Well out of my eight great grandparents, six of them were of native Irish heritage, one was Ulster-Scots and one was of English heritage. And funnily enough the only Catholic one was the English one (converted to my heretic religion before marriage though).

can you please explain in detail the differences between the two religions? 95% of people cannot, but I'm presuming you have a deep understanding of all the intricacies of both if you are able to label one as heretic.

it would be great if you could teach the rest of us.

Or, as I suspect, are you basing this statement on nothing at all?

DaithiOGormain

awec wrote: »

can you please explain in detail the differences between the two religions? 95% of people cannot, but I'm presuming you have a deep understanding of all the intricacies of both if you are able to label one as heretic.

it would be great if you could teach the rest of us.

Or, as I suspect, are you basing this statement on nothing at all?

Preaching against the One True Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church is heresy. Not believing in the dogma of the Catholic Church (intercession and communion of the saints, transubstantiation, the fact that the Blessed Virgin is the Holy Queen of Heaven, apparitions such as Lourdes and Knock, purgatory, etc) is heresy. Believing in sola scriptura, sola fide and other flawed Protestant doctrine is heresy.
Edit: My father actually preaches his own heretic views in a so called 'church' which I was forced to attend as a child. My family are very religious Prods so I've basically had heretic sh**e pumped into me from the day I was born, however at about the age of twelve or thirteen (a few years ago now like) I realised how wrong all of the Protestant teachings were and that there is only one true church.

awec

DaithiOGormain wrote: »

Preaching against the One True Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church is heresy. Not believing in the dogma of the Catholic Church (intercession and communion of the saints, transubstantiation, the fact that the Blessed Virgin is the Holy Queen of Heaven, apparitions such as Lourdes and Knock, purgatory, etc) is heresy. Believing in sola scriptura, sola fide and other flawed Protestant doctrine is heresy.
Edit: My father actually preaches his own heretic views in a so called 'church' which I was forced to attend as a child. My family are very religious Prods so I've basically had heretic sh**e pumped into me from the day I was born, however at about the age of twelve or thirteen (a few years ago now like) I realised how wrong all of the Protestant teachings were and that there is only one true church.

Ok, so you can't explain it at all. Cool, don't worry about it.

Nodin

DaithiOGormain wrote: »

......... (a few years ago now like) I realised how wrong all of the Protestant teachings were and that there is only one true church.

...the one in Nobber?

DaithiOGormain

Nodin wrote: »

...the one in Nobber?

No way, St John's in Nobber is one of those horrible, boring post-Vatican II churches isn't it. I wish Vatican II never happened and then they'd still be building lovely churches with proper high altars and all the gear. And I love a good Tridentine mass so I do.

DaithiOGormain

awec wrote: »

Ok, so you can't explain it at all. Cool, don't worry about it.

Well I can explain it better than some eejit in the Shankill or Ardoyne who hates taigs/huns because 'they hate us and we hate them'. And most of my friends are Protestants, but the fact that Protestantism is heresy is unquestionable due to the fact that the Catholic Church was always the established church throughout the western world until people started preaching against the dogma of the church, which is by definition heresy. And it is undeniable that Jesus himself started the Catholic Church.

awec

DaithiOGormain wrote: »

Well I can explain it better than some eejit in the Shankill or Ardoyne who hates taigs/huns because 'they hate us and we hate them'. And most of my friends are Protestants, but the fact that Protestantism is heresy is unquestionable due to the fact that the Catholic Church was always the established church throughout the western world until people started preaching against the dogma of the church, which is by definition heresy. And it is undeniable that Jesus himself started the Catholic Church.

I haven't seen any evidence of this better explanation so far.

desertcircus

DaithiOGormain wrote: »

Well I can explain it better than some eejit in the Shankill or Ardoyne who hates taigs/huns because 'they hate us and we hate them'. And most of my friends are Protestants, but the fact that Protestantism is heresy is unquestionable due to the fact that the Catholic Church was always the established church throughout the western world until people started preaching against the dogma of the church, which is by definition heresy. And it is undeniable that Jesus himself started the Catholic Church.

And if you asked a rabbi, he'd point out that Catholicism is heresy as well.