Any protestants in NI that feel Irish?

davet82

p.oconnor wrote: »

Well 99% of people down south always wanted the flag to represent what it does represent, Peace. Don't let the IRA the chance to hijack what it really means to us in the Republic, all we want is friendship and to live in peace, as our flag has now represented for almost 100 years.

I understand his views on that...

for example anytime i see ulster flags i automatically associate with Loylist paramilitaries, its weird how some can hi-jack something good and make something bad out of it

p.oconnor

LordSutch wrote: »

I think as an aspirational flag the Tricolour makes perfect sense. Green White & Orange united together with white in the middle to signify peace between the two traditions - Brilliant! but the problem as I understand it, is that there is no mention of the Union with Britain, the British people or the British flag, hence the problem Unionists have with it, they want to retain the link with Britain and their kin-folk, the Tricolour of course does not acknowledge this.

Maybe we could throw a picture of Kate Middleton in the centre of the tri-colour to symbolise the Union??

davet82

p.oconnor wrote: »

Maybe we could throw a picture of Kate Middleton in the centre of the tri-colour??

only if its a picture of her boobs! :pac:

Madam

davet82 wrote: »

I understand his views on that...

for example anytime i see ulster flags i automatically associate with Loylist paramilitaries, its weird how some can hi-jack something good and make something bad out of it

Why? It's not as if the flag represents the whole of Ulster and really should'nt be called an Ulster flag at all.

p.oconnor

davet82 wrote: »

only if its a picture of her boobs! :pac:

... I'm up for that

Crooked Jack

bilston wrote: »

Save money? What's that all about then?

A poor attempt at a joke used as a veil to disguise my admittance that I cant get the money together to go live elsewhere for a while.

p.oconnor

davet82 wrote: »

I understand his views on that...

for example anytime i see ulster flags i automatically associate with Loylist paramilitaries, its weird how some can hi-jack something good and make something bad out of it

I always associate the red hand of Ulster with Tyrone GAA, not any loylist paramilitaries.

davet82

Madam wrote: »

Why? It's not as if the flag represents the whole of Ulster and really should'nt be called an Ulster flag at all.

the ulster flag represents the whole of ulster, historically anyways and if i'm not mistaken still does

bilston

Crooked Jack wrote: »

A poor attempt at a joke used as a veil to disguise my admittance that I cant get the money together to go live elsewhere for a while.

It's alright I was joking too. I can't save £20 never mind enough to move to sunnier climes.

davet82

p.oconnor wrote: »

I always associate the red hand of Ulster with Tyrone GAA, not any loylist paramilitaries.

i know i shouldnt but its just the first thing i think of when i see it (the red hand) now which annoys me!

blatantrereg

Most Irish Protestants outside of Ulster supported the notion of home rule even before the Free State was formed, and the idea was very popular in England and Westminster also. In fact the third Home Rule bill of 1914 would have been passed before the 1916 rising if not for the interruption of WW1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Ireland_Act_1914

That bill would have given benefits of independence while retaining financial support from Britain. It's noteworthy that Ireland was costiing the UK £1.5M a year in budget deficits at this stage. It is reasonable to think that full separation from Britain would have been achievable through political and diplomatic means - with enough Irish support for the idea (something which might or might not have been in existence). Indeed it would have been in their own interests to allow it, given the budgetary situation.

As detailed in the link, the Orange Order type of Ulster Protestants were a major faction to try to obstruct this process. In my mind DeValera and his ilk in the revolution were their opposite numbers, also fanatical, and also obstructionist at the end of the day. As popular as the notion of Home Rule was (among Protestants as well as Catholics), there was not a strong desire for a complete break outside of these extremists, and neither was there the sort of antipathy towards Britain that people assume or often buy into today. Indeed they have hijacked the history books to a great extent, by presenting a number of historical figures such as Parnell and O'Connell as being forerunners of the revolutionaries in 1916. This isn't actually the case - these people were pushing for Home Rule (O'Connell wanted a repeal of the Act of Union, but he still wanted Queen Victoria to be Queen of Ireland). More importantly they endeavoured to fulfil their objectives via doplomatic and political means - not through violence at all.

Madam

davet82 wrote: »

the ulster flag represents the whole of ulster, historically anyways and if i'm not mistaken still does

So, when you see the flag do you think of Donegal, Cavan or Monaghan or 'just' the six counties?

davet82

Madam wrote: »

So, when you see the flag do you think of Donegal, Cavan or Monaghan or 'just' the six counties?

i just think of ulster like i do with munster, leinster and connaught...

i think of 'the north' as the 6 counties

dinorebel

I'm an English Protestant/Athiest who has lived in Donegal for 19 years and is married to a Catholic (non practicing despite the odd hypocritical Christmas/Easter visit to mass)and would probably lean towards republicanism my only reservation being that integrating loyalists/unionists into the south without violence may be difficult.I still consider myself fully English and would probably be a tory voter if at home and still support English sports teams.

Madam

davet82 wrote: »

i just think of ulster like i do with munster, leinster and connaught...

i think of 'the north' as the 6 counties

How can that be when Donegal is the most northerly county in Ireland - surely the other six county's should be rightfully called the North East?

purplepanda

bilston wrote: »

I agree but not everyone who is Irish will see it that way. 2/3rds of Irish people are in no way British, all Scots and Welsh are British...whether they see it that way or not is another matter but hopefully you see my point...it's not black and white and I'm probably not explaining myself very well...

British & Irish is a very similar , historically & culturally. Even Irish or potentially Scottish & / or Welsh independence doesn't radically change this.

The two islands have not had major European settlement or much overseas influence for close to a thousand years.

Austrians & Swiss don't like being regarded as similar to Germans either yet they usually regard Irish people as being "British", certainly in a wider cultural context.

I would even go so far as to say Irish culture is a major influence on "British" culture in a non political way.

There is a wider cultural Anglo Celtic heritage in these islands, some would call it "British" or perhaps choose another term but it definitely exists :pac:

p.oconnor

Madam wrote: »

How can that be when Donegal is the most northerly county in Ireland - surely the other six county's should be rightfully called the North East?

Its just something we say down here, the north always refers to N. Ireland.

Dyr

blatantrereg wrote: »

Most Irish Protestants outside of Ulster supported the notion of home rule even before the Free State was formed, and the idea was very popular in England and Westminster also. In fact the third Home Rule bill of 1914 would have been passed before the 1916 rising if not for the interruption of WW1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Ireland_Act_1914

That bill would have given benefits of independence while retaining financial support from Britain. It's noteworthy that Ireland was costiing the UK £1.5M a year in budget deficits at this stage. It is reasonable to think that full separation from Britain would have been achievable through political and diplomatic means - with enough Irish support for the idea (something which might or might not have been in existence). Indeed it would have been in their own interests to allow it, given the budgetary situation.

As detailed in the link, the Orange Order type of Ulster Protestants were a major faction to try to obstruct this process. In my mind DeValera and his ilk in the revolution were their opposite numbers, also fanatical, and also obstructionist at the end of the day. As popular as the notion of Home Rule was (among Protestants as well as Catholics), there was not a strong desire for a complete break outside of these extremists, and neither was there the sort of antipathy towards Britain that people assume or often buy into today. Indeed they have hijacked the history books to a great extent, by presenting a number of historical figures such as Parnell and O'Connell as being forerunners of the revolutionaries in 1916. This isn't actually the case - these people were pushing for Home Rule (O'Connell wanted a repeal of the Act of Union, but he still wanted Queen Victoria to be Queen of England). More importantly they endeavoured to fulfil their objectives via doplomatic and political means - not through violence at all.

Tell me this, what had delayed home rule for the previous 50 years before world war 1 toddled along as an excuse not to implement it? Redmond and "his ilk" were little more than war criminals who sold thousands of irish lives for the vaguest of promises. Dev et al, on the other hand, achieved in 8 years what the home rulers never even imagined was possible with less loss of life.

Fratton Fred

Where To wrote: »

Fair enough, I'll admit I was wrong, I have a couple of C of I relations who used to go on the major defensive if they were described as Anglican or anything other than Irish. Merely defending their honour.

Carry on

You do realise that you don't HAVE to be a Roman Catholic to be Irish don't you? And if you are a Roman Catholic, you aren't actually a real Roman.

It's the Anglican Church, of which the Church of Ireland, Church of England and many other churches are members. It originated in England, just as the Roman Catholic Church originated in, believe it or not, Rome.

davet82

Madam wrote: »

How can that be when Donegal is the most northerly county in Ireland - surely the other six county's should be rightfully called the North East?

p.oconnor wrote: »

Its just something we say down here, the north always refers to N. Ireland.

that pretty much sums it up...

example i'm goin up 'the north' - going to one of the six counties

if i were goin to donegal - i'd just say i'm going to donegal


its a funny thing because reffering it to the six counties as the 'the north' in some way chooses not to recongnise NI as a state but yet by reffering to them that way blantetly does... i never really put much thought into it tbh as most people dont, its just something that is said really.

blatantrereg

Bambi wrote: »

Tell me this, what had delayed home rule for the previous 50 years before world war 1 toddled along as an excuse not to implement it? Redmond and "his ilk" were little more than war criminals who sold thousands of irish lives for the vaguest of promises. Dev et al, on the other hand, achieved in 8 years what the home rulers never even imagined was possible with less loss of life.

The House of Lords. The 1893 Home Rule bill was passed by the House of Commons - ie: It had popular support but it was blocked by the aristocracy. Note that the 1916 revolutionaries weren't all fighting for Nationalist ideologies, but many for socialist ones.

I dont think WW1 was just an excuse not to implement it. It was a case of needing to avoid conflict in Ireland when the British armed forces were already engaged in a massive war. The Orange Order threatened to take arms to oppose the bill being implemented, so this was the logical position:

Represented mainly by the Ulster Unionist Party and backed by the Orange Order, the unionists established in January 1913 the paramilitary Ulster Volunteer Force, with 100,000 members who threatened to resist by physical force the implementation of the Act and the authority of any restored Dublin Parliament by force of arms,[13] fearing that Dublin rule would mean the ascendency of Catholicism—in the words of one MP, that "'home rule' in Ireland would prove to be 'Rome Rule'."[14] Later that year Carson and other leading men in Ulster were fully prepared to abandon the Southern Unionists, Carson's concern for them largely exhausted.[15]

It was precisely this situation that allowed Dev and his ilk gain power through violence [the British Armed forces were already engaged in a larger conflict].

Dont know what you're on about wrt Redmond being a war criminal selling lives for vague promises. Is that based on some information I'm not aware of, or do you just mean Irish participation in WW1? He wanted to achieve more than Dev did incidentally:

Nationalists, led by John Redmond, were adamant that any partition was unacceptable, and he declared that they could never assent to the mutilation of the Irish nation. "Ireland is a unit . . . . the two-nation theory is to us an abomination and a blasphemy"

I see you're happily buying into the idea that historical figures pushing for Home Rule would have been delighted at Dev going further than they ever dreamed, as you put it - personally I would see it as scuppering everything they had worked for and then pretending they wanted something they never actually did.

Those quotes are from the link I already posted incidentally - so perhaps more reading and less typing would be good

freddiek

the old excuse used to be that they didnt want to be "ruled by rome"

seeing as we down south have in the main turned our backs on the Catholic Church, is a 32-county ireland not more attractive to them now?

davet82

freddiek wrote: »

the old excuse used to be that they didnt want to be "ruled by rome"

seeing as we down south have in the main turned our backs on the Catholic Church, is a 32-county ireland not more attractive to them now?

we replaced the church with corrupt politicians and bankers so i reckon the answer is no :pac:

OurLadyofKnock

davet82 wrote: »

i cant really blame them for that bit, think half the country feels like that at them moment!

and how many of the "Dublin Governments" over the years including now were composed of people from Dublin?

Face facts, if Dublin vanished tomorrow the rest of the country would instantly become third world. The wealth is created in Dublin and not Cavan.

davet82

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

and how many of the "Dublin Governments" over the years including now were composed of people from Dublin?

Face facts, if Dublin vanished tomorrow the rest of the country would instantly become third world. The wealth is created in Dublin and not Cavan.

i think you're reading to much into that pal, it was a joke

Crooked Jack

Madam wrote: »

Why? It's not as if the flag represents the whole of Ulster and really should'nt be called an Ulster flag at all.

Are you sure you're both talking about the same flag

this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Flag_of_Ulster.svg/230px-Flag_of_Ulster.svg.png

and not this bastardised version

http://www.civilliberty.org.uk/images/ulster_flag.GIF

davet82

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Are you sure you're both talking about the same flag

this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Flag_of_Ulster.svg/230px-Flag_of_Ulster.svg.png

and not this bastardised version

http://www.civilliberty.org.uk/images/ulster_flag.GIF

well i was talking about the province flag of ulster to be specific not the NI state flag

An Coilean

getz wrote: »

there must be plenty of protestants [of the older generation]who still believe they are irish]remember that in 1920 27% of the irish population was protestant ,now in ireland it is down to 5%, the new state was hardly welcoming to their protestant citizens.

This is claimed quite often, but there is really very little evidence of it, comparative to what happened to many minorities in many parts of Europe and the rest of the world at the time, Protestants in the Republic were quite well treated. Their Religion was tolerated, there was no bar to participating in public life, they were aided in maintaing an Education system with a Protestant ethos by the state.
There were even a few simbolic gestures by the new state, such as the Senate and the first head of the new state being a Protestant.

Sure Ireland was a Catholic country, but it could in no way be described as oppressive to its Protestant Minority, especially when contrasted to what was happening in the Protestant state North of the border.

An Coilean

LordSutch wrote: »

I think as an aspirational flag the Tricolour makes perfect sense. Green White & Orange united together with white in the middle to signify peace between the two traditions - Brilliant! but the problem as I understand it, is that there is no mention of the Union with Britain, the British people or the British flag, hence the problem Unionists have with it, they want to retain the link with Britain and their kin-folk, the Tricolour of course does not acknowledge this.

What do you think the Orange bit is for?
Orange, representing the Orange tradition on the Island, Orange men feel British, the Orange bit of the flag being for them?
Whats not to get?

An Coilean

purplepanda wrote: »

The two islands have not had major European settlement or much overseas influence for close to a thousand years.

I think you will find that this Island has had an excess of overseas influence over the last thousand years.

p.oconnor

An Coilean wrote: »

What do you think the Orange bit is for?
Orange, representing the Orange tradition on the Island, Orange men feel British, the Orange bit of the flag being for them?
Whats not to get?

Totally agree, how could any Irishman, nationalist/unionist feel uncomfortable standing to the tri-colour. The tri-colour treats both sides of the political divide with equality and symbolises the attempt to create lasting peace on this island.

Seaneh

Seaneh wrote: »

A lot of the ulster rugby boys would be protestant and very much considers themselves to be Irish.

Thats not true at all, why do they fly an Northern Ireland flag in the dressing room even though they represent the whole of Ulster?

Try telling Ferris, Best, Trimble that they are Irish and not Northern Irish.

martingriff

RikkFlair wrote: »

Just on the McIlroy thing, I believe Darren Clarke would identify himself as Irish. To be fair he probably sees himself as Britsh/N.Irish also, but he did pose with the tricolour at the Ryder cup, something which McIlroy of course quickly discarded when someone threw him one at the US Open.

That said, Clarke did say that he was glad to be holding the Orange part of the flag. :pac:

Not this again he was thrown something and he threw it back I doubt he know what it was just so happened to be an Irish Flag plus there are picture of McIlroy posing with the other Irish at the last Ryder Cup with an Irish Flag wrapped around them

Edit Sorry there was a NI flag also It had Harringtom, GMac & McIlroy

woodoo

bilston wrote: »

I understand perfectly the idea behind the Tricolour, it was undoubtedly well intentioned...but it's been hijacked by the IRA and SF and therefore it's not something I can buy into.

The Soldiers Song (sorry I don't speak Irish and wouldn't want to offend anyone by attempting to spell it by it's proper name!) I would have no issue with, however an English verse thrown in for good measure probably wouldn't go amiss. I couldn't even sing it if I wanted to! In saying that I haven't an English translation of the anthem so I'm not sure what it even says!

Would their be much support among your community to separate NI from Ireland in all sports. EG have a NI rugby team. Include NI with GB in all sports. Or have a separate NI team.

I think if unionists are to represent Ireland then perhaps they should be accommodated a little better. I under the issues they have with the Flags and anthem etc.

woodoo

p.oconnor wrote: »

..... Them protestants don't know what they want

The vast majority of the time i am a nationalist and want a UI. But there are times that i think maybe it might have been better for this country is we never left the union and kept the Island united that way.

trashcan

bilston wrote: »

Well I'm a Northern Irish Prod and I'm Irish. Of course I'm Irish, I was born on the island of Ireland and I live on the island of Ireland and as things stand I'll probably die on the island of Ireland. Many will doubtless disagree but as far as I'm concerned I'm as Irish as anyone else whether you're from Dublin, the heart of the Mid Ulster Bible Belt or the Gaeltacht areas of Kerry or Donegal even though I can't speak a word of Irish.

So I'm Irish, but I'm also a Unionist, and I'm British too. For many in the South that's probably hard to comprehend..."how can you be Irish and British? That makes no sense?" Well it's one of those cute anomalies of living in Northern Ireland...you can be both.

Not hard to comprehend for me at all. What I do find hard to understand is why any northern protestant/unionist would deny being Irish. After all, as you say it doesn't preclude you from declaring yourself British, and we were all born on the one Island after all. And as someone else said, the Welsh, Scots and English can happily acknowledge those identities as well as British. (In fact I think you would usually hear the Scots and Welsh particularly, stress those identities.

Anyway, why can't we all just get along ? What's so funny about peace, love and understanding ?

Mickeroo

bilston wrote: »

The Soldiers Song (sorry I don't speak Irish and wouldn't want to offend anyone by attempting to spell it by it's proper name!) I would have no issue with, however an English verse thrown in for good measure probably wouldn't go amiss. I couldn't even sing it if I wanted to! In saying that I haven't an English translation of the anthem so I'm not sure what it even says!

I wouldn't worry, most people don't know what it means anyway, you get to know the noises after a while more so than the actual words :pac:

Yamanoto

woodoo wrote: »

Would their be much support among your community to separate NI from Ireland in all sports. EG have a NI rugby team.

Rugby has been played on an all-island basis long before NI or ROI came into being. Support for a stand-alone team would make no sense and has never been given the least bit of consideration.

trashcan

dinorebel wrote: »

I'm an English Protestant/Athiest who has lived in Donegal for 19 years and is married to a Catholic (non practicing despite the odd hypocritical Christmas/Easter visit to mass)and would probably lean towards republicanism my only reservation being that integrating loyalists/unionists into the south without violence may be difficult.I still consider myself fully English and would probably be a tory voter if at home and still support English sports teams.

Aw, and you were doing so well....:p

Dyr

Yamanoto wrote: »

Rugby has been played on an all-island basis long before NI or ROI came into being. Support for a stand-alone team would make no sense and has never been given the least bit of consideration.

All island basis me hole, all kingdom. Rugby was played on an all ireland basis because the whole island was a happy little part of the united kingdom just like scotland and wales. The school tie chaps in the IRFU back then never really got over the whole republic breakaway thing.

p.oconnor

woodoo wrote: »

p.oconnor wrote: »

..... Them protestants don't know what they want

The vast majority of the time i am a nationalist and want a UI. But there are times that i think maybe it might have been better for this country is we never left the union and kept the Island united that way.

Do you mean keep the country united with the republic pre-1920's ? It's ironic that if the British had not giving the free state in 1922 the country today probably would have been united under Dublin rule.

Yamanoto

Bambi wrote: »

All island basis me hole, all kingdom. Rugby was played on an all ireland basis because the whole island was a happy little part of the united kingdom just like scotland and wales. The school tie chaps in the IRFU back then never really got over the whole republic breakaway thing.

You'll have to put some flesh on the bones of that for me, I'm sure there's a point waiting to emerge, like a beautiful butterfly.

Fuinseog

freddiek wrote: »

the old excuse used to be that they didnt want to be "ruled by rome"

seeing as we down south have in the main turned our backs on the Catholic Church, is a 32-county ireland not more attractive to them now?

no cos we are ruled by feckless corrupt politicians, albeit slightly better than FF, who could not organise a piss up in a brewery.

I worked with protestants. they are hard workers with a sense of decency. mick wallace politicans would be intolerable to them. in Britain a politician who does not pay tax or is is found to be on the take is usually asked to resign.

Fuinseog

davet82 wrote: »

the ulster flag represents the whole of ulster, historically anyways and if i'm not mistaken still does

the red hand and Cuchulainn are symbols used by both sides

breffni666

Fuinseog wrote: »

freddiek wrote: »

the old excuse used to be that they didnt want to be "ruled by rome"

seeing as we down south have in the main turned our backs on the Catholic Church, is a 32-county ireland not more attractive to them now?

no cos we are ruled by feckless corrupt politicians, albeit slightly better than FF, who could not organise a piss up in a brewery.

I worked with protestants. they are hard workers with a sense of decency. mick wallace politicans would be intolerable to them. in Britain a politician who does not pay tax or is is found to be on the take is usually asked to resign.

Correct. In UK if ur caught you resign, you might get a second chance or third if ur Peter Mandleson!! Here its always someone elses fault or " that was the way everyone did it, i didnt see anything wrong". They would never resign the gravy train is too good, even for those who start out with high ideals. Terrible country, unable to rule ourselves fairly.

Sindri

p.oconnor wrote: »

Old Paisley seemed to have mellowed an awful lot over the past 10 years, I think he and other unionists realised if Catholics/Nationalists were refused power-sharing in the north it would directly lead to the unification of Ireland.

He got sick.

Fratton Fred

An Coilean wrote: »

This is claimed quite often, but there is really very little evidence of it, comparative to what happened to many minorities in many parts of Europe and the rest of the world at the time, Protestants in the Republic were quite well treated. Their Religion was tolerated, there was no bar to participating in public life, they were aided in maintaing an Education system with a Protestant ethos by the state.
There were even a few simbolic gestures by the new state, such as the Senate and the first head of the new state being a Protestant.

Sure Ireland was a Catholic country, but it could in no way be described as oppressive to its Protestant Minority, especially when contrasted to what was happening in the Protestant state North of the border.

The State basically accommodated them and as you say, "Their" religion was "Tolerated"? are you implying then that, you know, those prods weren't really Irish were they.

Lets face it, protestants in the south, whilst not actively discriminated against, weren't exactly made to feel welcome.

Fuinseog

breffni666 wrote: »

Correct. In UK if ur caught you resign, you might get a second chance or third if ur Peter Mandleson!! Here its always someone elses fault or " that was the way everyone did it, i didnt see anything wrong". They would never resign the gravy train is too good, even for those who start out with high ideals. Terrible country, unable to rule ourselves fairly.

or you have a good laugh about it like bertie ahern.

glenda Gilson defrauded the state of 75k. i wonder would a British tv presenter be allowed to continue working on tv under such circumstances. nobody bats an eyelid here though.

Fuinseog

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The State basically accommodated them and as you say, "Their" religion was "Tolerated"? are you implying then that, you know, those prods weren't really Irish were they.

Lets face it, protestants in the south, whilst not actively discriminated against, weren't exactly made to feel welcome.

Feathard on Sea. a wonderful example of sectarianism.

p.oconnor

Fuinseog wrote: »

Feathard on Sea. a wonderful example of sectarianism.

Ya the carry on in Feathard on Sea was disgusting but in reality I don't think protestants had many problems down here after independence, the vast majority took their place in the community along with Catholics, both sides of the divide equally shared in the highs and low's of the state after independence.